Winch won't work

[Rob]

I spooled out my winch cable today to oil it and rewrap it. When I went to start spooling it in, it wouldn't work. Lessoned learned. I ended up removing the cable till I can get it fixed.

Question is: What's wrong with it? It's a Superwinch LP8500, with a sealed solenoid. When I hit the toggle, it clicks once. After toggling three or four times, it kicks the relay. Does that sound like a bad solenoid or a bad connection to the solenoid?

[scout man]

sounds like a bad solenoid to me, but I am no expert. Hit it with a baseball bat, that'll fix it!! :wrench:

ok, not really

[Chris]

This is the new one, right Rob? Just return it as defective.

[Rob]

This is the new one, right Rob? Just return it as defective.

No, the new one is on the 40. This one's on the FJC and its nearing two years old. It only gets used when I wheel with you (and the last time I used it was on Yankee Hill with you and Ash). Tomorrow, I'm going to check and clean the ground connection. It looks like it might have some rust on it.

[Chris]

Okay, yeah clean all connections. After you get it fixed we'll have to go out so you can use it again!

[Patrolman]

Clean the connections. Also, bring up the RPM's a bit. That will bring up the voltage as well as the amps and may be enough power to trigger the solenoids. When I first got my winch on my 4Runner, it would only trigger the solenoids at 2000+ rpms. Turns out, the solenoids were 24v and the winch was 12v. An error at the factory as I bought it new. When the rpm got up high enough, the voltage was enough to trigger the solenoids and power the winch. ;)

[Hypoid]

When I hit the toggle, it clicks once. After toggling three or four times, it kicks the relay. Does that sound like a bad solenoid or a bad connection to the solenoid?
Sounds like you are on track. Clean all the cables, even the ones that look OK.

[Brody]

Clean all the connections.

"clean and oil the winch cable" ....What can I say but WOW! I have had winches on ever rig I have had since my first on back in 69 or 70 and I don't think that I have ever cleaned and oiled the cable.....and all the winches got used a lot. If you feel that you are either on a roll with the cleaning and oiling, or simply need more practice, I have both a front and rear winch that you can do it on...

[Hypoid]

If cleaning the connections doesn't do the trick, check for a voltage drop at the winch: With all the cables attached, put the positive lead of the voltmeter on the winch's positive terminal, negative to the metal of the body. The voltage should be the same as measuring straight across the battery posts. If not, it's possible to have a bad end on the cables. Corrosion can start inside the fitting and build resistance between it and the wire. You could try pulling hard on the cables while holding the button on the controller.

[Brody]

What Mike said. In addition to that, keep in mind that corrosion can follow up inside the cables, especially where they connect to the battery. The connection could look clean, etc, and still have corrosion up inside the insulation, The only way to see this, especially if the company that made the winch used heat shrink over the cable/connector junction, is to cut away the heat shrink and bend the connection back, aliowing you to see if there is any green funk inside.

[Rob]

Well, I cleaned everything and couldn't find any real corrosion on cables and it still just clicks. I guess I'll replace the solenoid(s) :frown: :frown: or replace the control box. Is there a way to test a solenoid to see if it's bad?

[Patrolman]

Will it power in or out or is it not working on either direction? Also, how many solenoids do you have? Are the battery terminals clean?

[Rob]

Battery terminals are clean. Won't power at all, in either direction. Just a click.

[Hypoid]

Time for some real troubleshooting. Don't throw a dime at this equipment until you know what is wrong. If it still has a warranty, use it.

I did some searching with the model number. Among the ads were posts from people who had trouble with water getting inside the electric motor and causing corrosion. Superwinch.com did not seem to have any comprehensive repair manuals for this model.

[Roo]

Rob, this might be a dumb question but, do you have a dual battery setup? If so are you sure the battery is charged? Once again sorry for the stupid question but sometimes we overlook the simple things.

[Rob]

Time for some real troubleshooting. Don't throw a dime at this equipment until you know what is wrong. If it still has a warranty, use it.

I did some searching with the model number. Among the ads were posts from people who had trouble with water getting inside the electric motor and causing corrosion. Superwinch.com did not seem to have any comprehensive repair manuals for this model.

Thanks, Mike. If I were just up for some serious troubleshooting, knowledgewise. I guess I could take the winch out of the bumper, open it up and look at the innards. That might tell me something. But I still need to know how to test a solenoid to see if it's bad.

No warranty. It came with the bumper, which I bought (new) for serious discount from a guy in Texas who got tired of waiting for the bumper and winch to arrive. He went with a different bumper and winch and sold the other ones to me.

Roo, the battery's fine.

[Pathrat]

I cursed it in the mall parking lot Saturday, sorry. I screwed up and can't remember the counter-curse either. Sucks getting old.

[Rob]

I cursed it in the mall parking lot Saturday, sorry. I screwed up and can't remember the counter-curse either. Sucks getting old.

:lmao: Wait! :frown:

Maybe Christy O'Donnell knows the counter-curse. :)

[Pathrat]

:lmao: Wait! :frown:

Maybe Christy O'Donnell knows the counter-curse. :)
I sent her an email...nothing yet.

[Rob]

I sent her an email...nothing yet.

Well ... she is busy casting spells on her Senate opponent. :D

[Hypoid]

But I still need to know how to test a solenoid to see if it's bad.
Check voltage at the outputs before tearing into anything.

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?2134-WINCHES-Rebuilding-Parts-Information-Diagrams-Testing-Sites

[Brody]

This is from the Super Winch site and covers a simple solenoid test:

http://www.superwinch.com/UserFiles/File/component.pdf

From YotaTech forums and is what I mentioned in my PM reply:

Turns out it was a bad ground to the case. not sure how that happens, maybe a lot of corrosion. anyway I really wanted to have it running for the weekend so i ponied up the $150 to have someone else fix it. it is twice as fast as it was before!


And a good winch check/solenoid check write up:

http://jeeptalk.net/index.php?showtopic=2737&mode=threaded&pid=18748

[Roostercruiser]

Mine did the same thing, i just rewired it with a 4 flat trailer wire, same colors and rewired the remote. Now it works great, mine was a corrodrd soliniod. i have a warn 8274, you might try same thing , cheap easy fix.

[Rob]

And a good winch check/solenoid check write up:

http://jeeptalk.net/index.php?showto...aded&pid=18748

Pete, today I tried the motor test, per these instructions. When I touched the jumper cable (positive from the battery) it sparked badly. I'm certain I had everything hooked up correctly. Any thoughts?

[Hypoid]

I'm not Pete, but I'd say either a locked up motor, or a short-circuited winding.

A shorted out winding would be more likely to heat up the cables and/or blow a fuse; no mention of either.

Time to take the winch apart. With any luck, you'll find something cheap that keeps the motor shaft from turning.

If I wasn't so overwhelmed with my own stuff, I'd tell you to bring it down. :frown:

[Rob]

Thanks, Mike. I plan to tear into tomorrow. Today was spent wiring up an aux circuit block in the 40 under Chris' watchful eye (and trying to augment my tool collection when Chris wasn't so watchful). :D

[Chris]

Rob, what was that ohm reading we didn't get? Infinite reading? We got 0 which isn't infinite as far as I guess, what is an infinite reading guys?

[Hypoid]

You must have been using an analog meter with the needle. It means the resistance is beyond the range of the scale, or the circuit is open.

"0" is no resistance.

A good habit for working with these selectable meters is to start with a higher range, and then switch to lower ranges until the needle sets (more or less) around mid-scale.

[Chris]

Thanks Mike!

[Rob]

All that solenoid testing likely was in vain. :frown: (I mean attempted solenoid testing.:))

I got the motor casing off today and it looks like moisture got into the casing. Here are some photos. Sure looks like rust to me. Can this be cleaned out and rebuilt or do I need a new motor?

Also, once I get it working again, how do I keep moisture out of the motor casing? I'd like this to not happen again or happen on the winch on the 40.

[Chris]

That looks pretty rusty to me too Rob! Yuk!

I'll leave options to those that know what they're talking about But I bet it can be cleaned.

I'd try fine sandpaper just on the armature and brushes and see if it works. The rest is just ugly but should't matter.

[Brad]

That looks saturated. If it were mine? I would clean it out and get it moving freely again.

[Rob]

I would clean it out and get it moving freely again.

How? Do I need to remove it from the casing to clean it?

[Chris]

Rob, there are 4 contact points where the brushes contact the armature (big copper colored part) the brushes should move away enough to clean the surface. That should be enough to test it again, it should work then unless the armature is seized itself.

[Brody]

Rob

Get some basic electronic parts cleaner (checker, auto zone, napa, radio shack) and hose off the whole inside of the casing, armature, etc. Then take some very fine (400-600) grit sandpaper and clean off the actual armature where the brushes go, making sure that the spaces between the contact stay clear of crap. Hose it all down again. An air source would be nice to have here, too. Make sure that the whole armature assembly can turn freely, grease what can be greased, hit it with a quick shot of WD 40 to remove any remaining traces of water, button it back up, cross your fingers and give it a go. Looks like the PO left it sitting outside in a mud hole for a year or two...

[Rob]

Well, the silver round thing at the very top spins, but nothing else spins. On the other side, the shaft also doesn't turn. I take it that's bad. Will cleaning it out with electronic parts cleaner unfreeze it?

[Brody]

Well, it will damn sure be a start. Sounds like the armature shaft has now managed to mate with the bearing(s), not a good thing. Without seeing a schematic of the winch, there may very well be a brass bushing at the other end which, in this case, will be better than steel as it is just crud making it stick, not a rust mating problem. I would do the electronic parts cleaner (make sure that you get the non residue, safe on plastics stuff) which, though not great on breaking a bond like rust, does help, WD40, then let it sit for a day or two and see if stuff frees up. I will take a bit for the WD to work down into all the stuff, so you have to give it some time.

If Mike or someone else with more knowledge has a better solution, by all means listen to them. I am merely saying what I would do on a good day. On a regular day, I would have gotten that thing loose by any means possible and freed it up....but it would be my stuff that I was working with, not someone elses....

[Rob]

Thanks, Pete. I'll give it a shot.

[Brody]

Also, each of the brushes has some form of spring that forces the brush against the armature. The brushes (a fairly soft carbon type material) are pretty easily damaged (not to bad, but be careful), but they need to be able to move freely in the little slots/guides. If they are not pushed into contact with the armature bushing (the copper deal with the slots), then electrical contact is non existent or spotty.. Make sure these get the hose down treatment as well, then tomorrow or the next day, carefully try to move them back toward the housing to see if the they are free and that there is spring tension on them.

Oh...the silver thing on the top is a sealed bearing of some sort. There maybe an identical unit on the opposite end, or a brass bushing. These are sometime pressed onto the shaft, so keep that in mind, too. My guess is that they aren't pressed on on winches, but it has been awhile since I had to take one apart.

This actually looks more like salt water damage. Where did the bumper/winch combo come from?

[Rob]

This actually looks more like salt water damage. Where did the bumper/winch combo come from?

That's a long story. Suffice to say the winch was new out of the box. I know it's gotten wet but I don't think it's ever been submerged. If it has, it was only briefly, probably at Coney Lake. When I took the cap off, though, the gasket is extremely thin and cheesy. I don't know how else water or moisture could have gotten in except through there. My knowledge is so limited, though, I could easily be wrong.

Aren't the motor housings supposed to be watertight? If not, can you make them watertight?

[Hypoid]

Locked rotor with one good bearing, let's see a picture of the other end.


Aren't the motor housings supposed to be watertight? If not, can you make them watertight?When I googled the model number, there were a few threads that talked about water getting into the motor. Sealing the end cap with silicone was the recommended fix.

[Brad]

Everything Pete said I would agree with. :thumb:

[Rob]

Locked rotor with one good bearing, let's see a picture of the other end.


That pic will have to wait. It's soaking in WD40 right now. Is this repairable, Mike?

[Hypoid]

That pic will have to wait. It's soaking in WD40 right now. Is this repairable, Mike?...If we get that other end freed up. We'll just have to finish the tear-down and see how bad it really is.

You should also be looking at the gears inside the winch housing. They could probably stand a little attention as well.

[Rob]

Here's a couple of pics of the other side. Now how do I get the cover off this side? Right now it spins around on the motor housing.

[Chris]

Hmm, are those bearings is see? Looks like it so it may just be a press fit. Oh he'll, I'm guessing :erm:

[Hypoid]

Yep, those are the bearings. They might be pressed on the shaft, or held with a C-clip or snap ring.

It's interesting that the housing rotates. I take it the shaft does not. I'm thinking that if the bearing were seized, the rotor would fall out with the end housing. Hopefully, the rotor has rusted to the inside of the stator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stator

In either case, Rob needs to take the spring pressure off the brushes so they won't be damaged and try to persuade the rotor, with that shiny end intact, to slide out without causing any further damage.

[1freaky1]

Rob I just got done redoing my winch and from what I see in the last picture the bearing is pressed on the shaft and slides into the bearing cup on the motor upright mounting plate(silver part). To get this apart you need a rubber mallet to tap the mounting plate off the bearing and don't hit it too hard since that plate is made out of cheap aluminum, if it breaks they cost around $20. You mentioned that the housing is turning around the armature that tells me that it is freed up and you should be able to pull the housing off so you can tap the mounting plate of easier. Once you pull the housing off the brushes will compress due to the spring tension and when it goes back together you will need 3 hands to get them back on the end of the armature. If you need help you can always bring it down here and I will assist you with it.

[Swath]

Is it possible that that one brush is welded to the armature?

I zoomed in on your clearest pic and blew it up a bit.

Those brushes need to be manipulated to ensure they are floating free before you go yanking on things. It should be relatively easy to take that tension spring off.

That blackness on the armature and brush sure looks like it welded the brush to the arm.

You may need to put new brushes in but just prying it loose will tell you something. It's possible once you do that you will be able to spin the motor and maybe even use it again after a good cleaning.

Try to lightly move one of the brushes (2 brushes for fwd, 2 for rev). Try one that looks nice and clean and see if it moves freely, now that you have a feel for what one should feel like, try to move that one with the blackness on it. Don't get too rough with it or you could damage the armature. Maybe a dental pick would help or maybe it will just pop loose with a little pressure.

At the very least check all 4 brushes to make sure they float freely against the spring tension.

Just something to look at. :2c:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff254/Swath_bucket/Stuff/winchmotorinnardsannotated.jpg

[Rob]

Thanks, Jeff. I think I did what you advise. I can move all four brushes move away from the armature (the copper slotted cylinder in the middle, right?). Most of the black gunk has dissolved off the brushes and is gone. Is the armature supposed to spin freely?

[Swath]

Thanks, Jeff. I think I did what you advise. I can move all four brushes move away from the armature (the copper slotted cylinder in the middle, right?). Most of the black gunk has dissolved off the brushes and is gone. Is the armature supposed to spin freely?

Yup, that is the armature (more correctly called the commutator). Did any of the brushes feel stuck at all?

http://www.howstuffworks.com/motor.htm/printable

Once you have that thing all loose, like it looks like you do, the armature is probably resting against the stationary magnets (which surround the armature) so it would not be expected to turn easily.

It's a great tour of an electric motor and a great opportunity to learn. Pretty much the same as the smallest motors and the largest motors (and generators). The part that moves it called a rotor, the part that stays stationary is the stator. The stator consists of some large magnets, the rotor is composed mostly of a bunch of wires (the windings). Generally, a motor only has two brushes, this winch motor has 4 of em. Like I stated earlier, two for fwd (opposite of each other) and two for rev.

When the thing is assembled it is supported on either end by the bearings. It still won't just "spin" because there is a fair amount of magnetic force acting on the rotor but it should be able to be moved.

Clean everything up good, look for anything odd, put it back together and make it spin!

When I was a youngster I had a slot car set, those slot cars had pancake motors made up of magnets, brushes, a rotor. Same basic principal as this larger motor. I had a blast back then taking those things apart and fixing em up. I've pretty much been working around motors and generators of all sizes all my life. I don't really know the details like many do, but I have a solid grasp of the basics.

Hope this helps.

[Hypoid]

Here's a couple of pics of the other side. Now how do I get the cover off this side? Right now it spins around on the motor housing.Does the shaft spin with the cover, or remain stationary?

[Hypoid]

Once you have that thing all loose, like it looks like you do, the armature is probably resting against the stationary magnets (which surround the armature) so it would not be expected to turn easily.
Specs say he has a series wound motor. There may be some residual magnetism, but not enough to hold the rotor: http://www.superwinch.com/LP8500_8_500_lbs.html

Here's a mouthful, just enough electric theory to make me dizzy: http://www.4qd.co.uk/faq/bmnc3.html

[Hypoid]

Here's a smoking gun or you: http://www.jeepkings.ca/forums/showthread.php?108439-Superwinch-LP8500-winch&p=1122279#post1122279

One guy talks about packing with dielectric grease or petroleum jelly. There is a mess waiting for it's first heat cycle.

Spray WD-40 on the steel parts and seal the end caps with silicone.

[Brody]

Oh, that is classic, Mike! Kinda like filling an engine with grease in the summer timer because summer heat thins oil...

[Hypoid]

The suspense is killing me!!!! :smokin:

[1freaky1]

Well Mike you are welcome to come by Sunday cause Rob will be bringing the winch down to my house so we can see what is going on with it.

[Hypoid]

Right now I'm up to my earballs in stuff to fix. Feel free to call me if you want a second opinion.

[Rob]

I just got back from Sean's house, where we (by which I mean Sean) spent some time cleaning the motor and freeing up stuck brushes. I'm heading out to the garage now to put it all back together and test it. Stay tuned.

[Rob]

Fail. Hooked the winch up to the FJC and it still just clicks. Sorry, Sean. But it was great visiting with you and learning something about motors from you. I deeply appreciate it.

[Hypoid]

Bummer! So, is this the new class project?

I can't help myself. Ever since I learned how to put my toys back together, I want to take something else apart...

[Rob]

Bummer! So, is this the new class project?

I can't help myself. Ever since I learned how to put my toys back together, I want to take something else apart...

:lmao: Yeah, I'm getting a late start on learning to take things apart and put them back together so they work. Sean did great work today, but I'm afraid I either screwed up something before he got to it or it was too damaged to fix. When Sean gets online, he can explain how bad it was and might know what else we can try.

You're welcome to take a crack at it, Mike. Every time I get to watch someone smarter than I work on something I learn more good stuff. One of these days, I'll know enough to be dangerous. :erm:

[1freaky1]

That is a bummer Rob, I wish the motor end cover would have been in your bucket so we could have reassmbled it and tested everything out before you left. As far as the condition of the motor, it was pretty nasty. There was rust, carbon build up and what looked like some muckie stuff that was well dried. We cleaned the magnets, armetuer, and brushes. Got everything moving freely, about the only thing I can think of now is that there is a bad connection on the terminals in the motor connections or something with the solenoids. With as much stuff that we found inside it would not suprise me if the wiring inside the insulation isn't corroded even though it did not look like it at the magnet connections even with a good ohms reading. I will think about tonight while at work and see if I can come up with something else will also talk with a few of the guys about it too.

[Rob]

Thanks, Sean. I'm kicking myself for forgetting the cover. But I know you like a challenge. :)

[Brad]

I'll know enough to be dangerous.

http://crossfitzone.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/the_more_you_know2.jpg

:thumb:

[1freaky1]

Not a problem Rob and yes it was good to visit with you too. Paging Mr. Mike, Mr. Mike, we have a problem!:wrench::eek:

[Brody]

Well, I thought the winch was working cause I thought I saw a picture on a recent run with Rob winching his 40 out of something....Between Mike and Sean, if they can't get the winch fixed and running, then you really have some problems going on....

[1freaky1]

Nah Pete this is the Superwinch from the FJC. It mounts vertical on his front bumper so it gets a lot of water usually before anything else when it is deep enough.

[Hypoid]

I can't help but think it's something simple. Bring all the parts when it's convenient for you, I'll tinker between big projects. :)

[Rob]

Hey, Mike. I could probably drop if off Sunday for you to tinker with.

[Hypoid]

Okee-dokee! PM on it's way.

[Hypoid]

We did the jumper test today, got a lot of sparks. I'll post findings soon as I get caught up with vehicle repairs.

[Rob]

Thanks again, Mike. :thumb:

[Chris]

I'm hurt Rob! You didn't thank me when I made it spark! :lmao:

[Rob]

I'm hurt Rob! You didn't thank me when I made it spark! :lmao:

:lmao: That's because I wasn't expecting your spark. I was ready for it this time.

By the way, my fuse box wasn't bolted in tightly. I think that's why that loose top fuse kept pulling out. :eek: Good thing I only need those tail lights at night.

[Chris]

Not bolted tightly is almost too hard to pass on Rob! :rolleyes:

Those tail lights and brake lights are one aren't they? I'm guessing you've been driving w/o brake lights too!

[Rob]

Those tail lights and brake lights are one aren't they? I'm guessing you've been driving w/o brake lights too!

Nope. When it was checking lights and blinkers and such to see which fuse was out, I tested the brakes and the brake lights worked, but not the tail lights. Looking at the fuse box cover (which is not attached to the box, of course), the first one is listed as TAIL and the one right below it is STOP/HORN. So people behind me could see me every time I hit the brakes. But now I know when the gauge lights go out, so so the tail lights.

[Chris]

Wow! That old truck is more modern than I thought!

Let's get together soon and tighten that fuse box Rob! :D

[Rob]

Let's get together soon and tighten that fuse box Rob!
:lmao: Funny guy. I'm not sure we could find the right socket in your toolbox.

[scout man]

Mine is the same way Rob! I blew the fuse on my dash lights the other day, and didnt really think too much about it. Who needs to see a speedometer anyways! Then come to find out I was driving around in the mountains after dark with no tail lights! I was wondering why I kept getting all the weird looks.

Of course, I should have known this, because I am pretty sure I am the one that wired it that way! :erm:

[Rob]

Who needs to see a speedometer anyways!

Exactly! I can tell by vibrations and rattles how fast the 40's going. (Tail lights, though, that's a different story. I'm surprised no one honked at me.)

[scout man]

Exactly! I can tell by vibrations and rattles how fast the 40's going. (Tail lights, though, that's a different story. I'm surprised no one honked at me.)

me too! I did get a few strange looks that got my attention, but no one even tried to communicate the problem too me. Just looked at me like I was some a-hole in a POS truck that thought I was too good for tail lights.

[Rob]

Just looked at me like I was some a-hole in a POS truck that thought I was too good for tail lights.
:lmao: I sometimes get those looks even when the tail lights are working.

[scout man]

:lmao:

[Brody]

I get some looks, too, mostly from very old blue haired ladies who give me what I call the 'butt look' face if they drive past me when I am parked for a stop sign or light. Always makes me want to look at them grab my junk and stick out my tongue, but that is only cause I have a bad attitude....and little do they know that I am probably only a few years younger than they are....

[Robert B]

Always makes me want to look at them grab my junk and stick out my tongue
only prob is some of those old ladies might come after you in a cougar like fashion then :eek: if you get what i mean :erm:.... and i think my speedo might be weird cause sitting still it says 7 mph but it seems to be working (thouhg its 5mph or so off cause the tires)

[Hypoid]

I got the shop heater fired up last night and felt ambitious enough to have a look-see. I think the motor is salvable! Manufacturing methods usually circumvent making any repairs, but not this time.

Based on Rob and Sean's observations, I think the initial problem was that the rotor was corroded to the field magnets. With that problem solved, I think there were a couple mistakes made during reassembly. Nothing to feel bad about, just another tuition payment in the school of hard knocks. I think we got off pretty cheap. :)

First thing I did was hook the control box to a motor that is know to be good. The controller works!

When Rob brought the winch over, we tried the jumper test. When I took the armature wire off the motor, I noticed the stud turning. My concerns were realized when I got the motor open. I'll have to re-solder the brushes to the stud.

Since I have the luxury of time, I'll do a thorough cleanup before reassembling the motor. After the motor is proven, I'll take a look at the rest of the assembly. When I was taking the motor off, I noticed some roller bearings loitering around in the grease at the end of the spool. I think they belong somewhere else, I'll see that they get home. ;)

[Rob]

Wow, that's good news, Mike.

If memory serves, those three roller bearings were standing straight up in the grease when I pulled the cap off and were evenly spaced up against the outer wall. I was wondering if maybe there were some kind of spacers. I couldn't figure out where else they might go or what else they might be. (Big surprise, huh?)

[Hypoid]

I feel like my soldering skills have been put to the test. I feel like I passed.

I tend to be anal about solder joints: Do it right, or you'll be doing it over. :)

[Hypoid]

A quick update before I tear into the next "big" project.

Brushes re-soldered to the armature stud.

Case disassembled and start of clean-up. Steel parts will be phosphatised and painted.

[Hypoid]

The brush holder is too delicate for scraping or wire brushing. My choice for removing this rust involves mad science: Electrolysis!

I'll have more on that subject later...

[RockyMtnHigh]

Rob, so this is the winch that you got from Road Armor or that Nick got and sent you?

If it is, seems awfully rusted out for such a short period of time, I am wondering if RA didn't send one that was used.

[Rob]

Looking good, Mike.

[Hypoid]

Rob, so this is the winch that you got from Road Armor or that Nick got and sent you?

If it is, seems awfully rusted out for such a short period of time, I am wondering if RA didn't send one that was used.

I have been contemplating this question all day and wish to put your concerns to rest. I have observed an inherent flaw in the assembly of this motor that facillitates internal corrosion.

What I have observed, is that nearly every opening on the motor is sealed with an O-Ring. Rob mentioned something regarding the way the end caps were sealed: They have thin O-Rings seated on flanges. The screws that secure the brush holder have O-Rings. The ground stud on the bottom of the case has an O-Ring. The screws that hold the coils in place, and the screws that hold the motor together have O-Rings. After close examination, it is my opinion that these O-Rings have held their seal.

There are three openings in the case that were not sealed by O-rings. They are the openings for the field coil and armature studs. While they did have electrical insulaters to keep the studs from shorting to the case, they had no provision to seal out moisture. They also happen to be mounted on the top of the case.

Thus, Any moisture that leaks in through these openings, has no other exit from the case. Every other opening was sealed well enough to hold that moisture inside the case. The corrosion patterns inside the end caps attest to moisture being trapped inside, with clean metal showing where the O-rings were seated.

Here is the smoking gun, with corrosion all the way through the electrical openings:

[Brody]

Thanks for all of your expertise, Mike! That is looking good. This will probably get me started on the R&R of my two Warns. I have had them for 6-7 years and need to swap the front to the rear, giving me 9000k where I use it the most, and due some basic regreasing and cleaning.

[Rob]

Jock, Nick sent me that winch when RA failed to send a winch with the bumper. He bought it new.

Mike, is there a good way to seal those stud holes? Slicone? O rings?

[Hypoid]

Thanks for all of your expertise, Mike! Hmmm, tinkering as an expertise, "Expert Tinkerer." I could get used to that. :thumb: Thanks!


Mike, is there a good way to seal those stud holes? Slicone? O rings? Yes. :lmao:

[Hypoid]

Fun with electrolysis:

I wanted to take my time with this post because it demonstrates a restoration method that can be used when other methods are too harsh. As I mentioned, the rusty, crusty, brush holder to Rob’s winch was too delicate for mechanical rust removal. Scrapers and wire wheels were just too aggressive, and likely to damage the assembly.

A few years ago, I read about and tried electrolytic rust removal (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&q=electrolytic+rust+removal&aq=f&aqi=g6g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=). It was not perfect, but very effective on delicate work. The article I read used “Household Lye” as the key ingredient to the electrolytic solution. Other articles recommend “washing soda”, which is inherently safer. I still have some crystal drain cleaner left, so that is what I used to make my electrolytic solution.

Picture 1: Light gauge steel parts with fiberglass insulators. I’d really hate to screw this up!

Picture 2: If there are bubbles coming off the work piece, you’ve done something right!

Picture 3: After a few hours in the process, I pulled the piece and noticed I had neglected to wire the insulated parts. After GENTLY removing the brush springs, I wired the insulated parts into the circuit.

Picture 4: I also revised the placement of the anodes. Keep in mind that you need to maintain a direct line between the part and the anode. This should clean up some of the areas that are perpendicular to the base plate.

Picture 5: After a few more hours, the insulated parts looked good enough (notice the dark tint). I used a wire brush with brass bristles to clean off the remaining residue.

Picture 6: The solution and sludgy residue are safe enough to dump down the toilet.

Picture 7: After rinsing and wire brushing, I used a phosphoric based metal prep to convert the remaining oxidation. At this point, you can see how the rust has etched the base metal. Removing that rust left the pitting you see in the picture. The part has since been painted.

[Hypoid]

More trouble in paradise, sorta. :)

While test fitting parts, I noticed one of the insulating washers on the field coils was damaged. After careful examination, I'm of the opinion that this was done by the factory assembler. My reason for even posting this is to illustrate how easy it is to over tighten these studs and cause damage you can't see.

In a nutshell, the stud was tightened enough to cut the insulating washer and suck the stud through the hole in the case.

I searched my collection of junk, I searched my local hardware store. I could not find a suitable replacement for the damaged part.

Plan B is to install a brass washer behind the damaged insulator. As the nut is tightened down, the brass washer will stop the stud from pulling through the case.

[Brody]

Just out of curiosity, since I had done some reading into how you cleaned this off awhile ago, I have a couple of questions:

Why crystal drain cleaner?

Wouldn't just soaking the parts in a phosphoric acid solution like muriatic acid have done the same thing? Or would that have damaged the parts more? I use muriatic acid to clean off quite a few rusted parts and to get rust off of tools, and it works, but also posing other problems that need to be addressed when you do.

Nice to see the set up you used, BTW, since I never tried this.

[Hypoid]

Pete, I don't keep Muriatic Acid, don't have much use for it. I do have use for this type of product, and keep some on hand: http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=32&prodid=81

It works as advertised when you follow the instructions. I have been very happy with the results.

The problem with any chemical reaction, is that it will last as long as the solution. With the metal prep solution, I wouldn't know if the all rust was converted before the solution reached it's saturation limit. The best prep is to remove all the rust you can before treating the work with a chemical solution.

One of the main benefits of electrolysis is that it will not erode the base metal like an acid solution will. The iron/steel will not rust again while sitting in the high PH solution. You can leave the work in the bucket and do other things without any great concern.

The reason I used crystal drain cleaner, is that it is what I had on hand from previous projects. The first time I read about this, the site was based in the UK. I Didn't even think that "washing soda" was available here.:redface: One of the other solutions mentioned, used crystal drain cleaner, AKA Sodium Hydroxide. Make no mistake when you use the stuff, it will hurt you. Such as it is, I used very little Sodium Hydroxide (1/2 tsp in a gallon of water?) and was satisfied with the solution's ability to conduct electricity. I guess a side benefit of the solution is that it will lift grease and oil off the part.

All that said, some day I'll be in the grocery store and the words "washing soda" will bubble up from the nether regions of my brain. In the mean time, I'll use what is on hand. ;)

Edit: I did include a google search in the electrolysis post. I think this page is one of the better reads: http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm

[Brody]

Thanks, Mike. I have always wanted to try what you did, but the stuff I needed to de rust has, for the most part, been pretty crude pieces of gear, like screwdrivers , nips, pliers, etc, that have turned up on construction/remodel sites buried in the dirt or found alongside the road...in other words, stuff that if it didn't clean off, wasn't a big deal one way or the other.

I usually have quite a bit of muriatic solution around for concrete, mortar or tile clean up, so it is usually pretty handy.

[RockyMtnHigh]

I can't believe the level of attention you're giving the rebuilding of the winch, I would have given up several days ago and just bought another one or started saving for another.

Either way, looking forward to seeing it back together and working!

[Rob]

I would have given up several days ago and just bought another one

I could have done that a couple of years ago. Not these days.

I just wish I had the knowledge and skills to do something like this.

[Brody]

I would have given up several days ago and just bought another one

I could have done that a couple of years ago. Not these days.

Yeah, those days seem to have passed me by, too. Minus real income(ie:real job/steady paycheck), simply going out and buying anything that isn't really considered a necessity isn't in the plan. The tires I just got, for instance, have been budgeted for since I got my last set two years ago. I have been crossing my fingers hoping that nothing really expensive, either house or cars, breaks.

I just wish I had the knowledge and skills to do something like this.

This has more to do with how you are wired than anything else. Mike, like me, Sean or any of the many other people on the forum who tinker with stuff, wrench or fab, have probably always taken junk apart to see how it works. I remember taking a radio apart when I was about 5 years old and putting it back together again. Also, growing up on a farm, we were always having to fix junk that broke-cars, tractors, tools, fences-the list was pretty much endless. Not having a lot of money, we also did all of our own repair work to the house and outlying buildings.

Personally, I think that you don't give yourself enough credit, as you have started doing a lot of stuff on your rigs that you never did before even though it is really intimidating for you to do so. After all, who took the winch out and apart to begin with? Aaron is another person who has impressed me with doing this same stuff as he isn't wired for it either....like his transmission. People like you guys who tackle stuff that is really out of their comfort zone impress me a lot more than someone who looks at something and goes "Yeah, no big deal. I can fix that", just because it it really isn't a big deal. It isn't a matter so much if you couldn't fix the problem after you tried to, it is more a matter of the fact that you tried.

[Rob]

Thanks, Pete. Of course, it doesn't take much to get me out my comfort zone.

One thing about not having any money these days, it gets you out of that zone in a hurry. Our dishwasher, which we bought shortly after we moved into this house 11 years ago, started leaking a while back. In days past, I would have called someone in to repair it. Last week, I took the door off and isolated the leak. Then I fixed it, which was just a matter of putting a bead of silicone in the right place. Simple fix, but I wouldn't even have thought about trying to fix it myself a few years ago.

[Hypoid]

I can't believe the level of attention you're giving the rebuilding of the winch, I would have given up several days ago and just bought another one or started saving for another.

Either way, looking forward to seeing it back together and working!I wish the guy at the drawing board, or the guy on the assembly line had invested a tenth of the attention! That would have circumvented the need for repair. :mad:

With a few exceptions, this project has used supplies that are already on had. I did have to buy a metric tap, but, it's mine, forever! The brass washers from the hardware cost around fifty cents. I think our investment is still less than a new motor. :)

We've been able to draw a few lessons from this class project. I will have another "show and tell" post in a few days. I enjoy doing them, and hope to make them comprehensive for a broad range of people.

[Brody]

That would be great, Mike. This is the kinda stuff that needs to go into the tech section...like one time for the rust removal and another for a great addition to the winch junk that I already have on there.

[Hypoid]

Just a quick update:

I've been slowly re-assembling and verifying my work.

The brass washers worked as hoped. They sucked in and conformed to the contour of the case. It was after this, that I noticed the armature stud had a thin stainless washer backing up the fiber washer. Harumph! Somebody was awake when they put this together the first time.

I created another problem when I was cleaning the case interior: My needle scaler peened a couple threads in the hole for the ground stud. The ONLY hole with threads and I damaged it! A tap cleaned up the threads. Plan B was to make the hole bigger and cut more threads.

More later...

[Cr33p3r]

Good deal there Mike, waiting on the vids when you get time!

[Hypoid]

One of the reasons I’ve enjoyed this project because it has forced me to see through different eyes. I normally putter along, doing things I learned before I knew wrenches had numbers on them. I’ll spend a little time explaining some basic things most people learn the hard way, for the sake of those who can learn from example.:)

Sealers:

Picture 1: I prefer to use a different sealer on the ends of the case and the ground stud. Since we have established that the O-Rings have kept their seal, I will augment the O-Rings with Hylomar sealer. The benefit I’m looking for is ease of disassembly and reassembly. This is a non-hardening sealer and cleans up with acetone, among other solvents. According to the manufacturer’s website, it has the ability to reseal if you were to open an assembly in the field. We’ll put that versatility to the test before this project is over.

Picture 2: The more permanent assemblies had silicone sealer applied. Even with new O-Rings on the fasteners that had provisions for them, I wanted the extra margin in my favor. The electrical openings had no provisions for an O-Ring; I used only silicone on the insulating grommets, inside and out.

Reassembly:

Picture 3: The armature stud has been a problematic part. It turned enough to break the solder joint, and wanted to turn with the nut on reassembly. To keep the stud from turning with the nut, I ran two other nuts onto the stud and jammed them together by turning one into the other.

Picture 4: With the jammed nuts holding the stud I was able to tighten the nut that retains the stud. I think it will stay put. :)

Picture 5: When we reattach the cables to the motor, we need to hold the retaining nut to keep the stud from turning as we tighten. Based on what I see with this winch, I think this should be a universal practice.

One other pesky detail is that my wrenches are too thick to hold the bottom nut while I tighten the top nut. The cable lug tightens down on the wrench instead of the bottom nut. Rob, when you come down to get the winch, bring cheap, open end wrenches in 13mm and 14mm sizes to hold these studs. If they are too thick, we’ll grind off enough material to make them fit. After that, keep them in your winch kit.

In my next installment we’ll cover testing and troubleshooting our work. I’ll make some video for that one. :D

[Cr33p3r]

A lot of good pointers there Mike, just let me know when you get the vids emailed and I will post them up for you.

[Rob]

bring cheap, open end wrenches in 13mm and 14mm sizes to hold these studs. If they are too thick, we’ll grind off enough material to make them fit. After that, keep them in your winch kit.

Will do. I have several of each and carry them in both rigs. I'll bring the thinnest one I have.

[Rob]

Hypoid rocks!

Mike got the winch working and we mounted it back on the FJC today. Took the opportunity to put a new winch cable on it, too. I got the cable from Jock (RockyMtnHigh) when he put a synthetic line on his winch. Thanks, Jock!

The cable was missing the connector on the end to mount it to the drum, but Mike had a connector that fit nicely after a trip to the hardware store to get a better screw to hold it.

I think Mike has some more to add to the technical end of this to complete his tutorial on winch motor repair.

Thanks again, Mike!

[RockyMtnHigh]

Thanks, Jock!

You're welcome, glad to hear it's all working too.

I got to ask though, cuz I remember how much a pain in the butt it was to mount the winch the first time, was there an easier way to do it? Something we missed?

[Rob]

I got to ask though, cuz I remember how much a pain in the butt it was to mount the winch the first time, was there an easier way to do it? Something we missed?

:lmao: No, I don't think we missed anything. I think things like that are easier the second time. Getting the winch mounted wasn't so bad, but getting the fairlead on was still more challenging than it should be. I made sure I had the right wrench on hand that I knew would fit into that tight space between the winch and the bumper. It was a pain to get the lock washers and nuts on the bolts, but once on and the wrench in place, a quick shot with the impact socket tightened it right up.

[RockyMtnHigh]

but getting the fairlead on was still more challenging than it should be.

I remember now, that was the biggest pain which is usually the easiest thing on every other bumper. That's cool at least it's all back together and from the sounds of it, better than before!

[Rob]

Yeah, now I just need to talk the Flounder and Smash into another winter winchfest up Yankee Hill.

[RockyMtnHigh]

winter winchfest

I will see your winchfest and raise you one winterfest instead!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e-YxtJRmw3s/SvbXEQMtBZI/AAAAAAAADXw/dYVU8IP2qWI/s200/winterfest03.jpg

Reese, brought me a few last night, your post somehow reminded me that it's sitting in the fridge, time to go have one! :D:thumb:

[Rob]

Mmm, beer.

[Chris]

Yeah, now I just need to talk the Flounder and Smash into another winter winchfest up Yankee Hill.

I don't think Smash is up for it but I am Rob, post it up!

[Rob]

Dang! You called me out. I'll have to get a snow run together in the new year.

[Chris]

You didn't expect anything less did you Rob?

[Rob]

I was hoping maybe you weren't paying attention.

[Chris]

:lmao: I'm always on top of this stuff!

[Hypoid]

Testing our work:

When I reassembled the motor, the shaft did not spin freely by hand. It would make a few revolutions and get hard to turn, regardless of direction. When I put power to the motor, it sounded pretty loud. Time to have a look inside!

When I took the rotor out, the fresh paint had obvious witness marks: The armature was rubbing one of the coil retainers. Subsequent examination revealed that I had let an insulating strip slip under the coil retainer when I reassembled the field coils. It’s the details that will ruin your day!

Picture 1: I didn’t take any pictures of the carnage, but this old picture shows the insulating strip and it’s proximity to the coil retainer.

After reassembly, the motor sounded much better. After a run test, it was time to check for water contamination in the gearbox and put everything back together.

Picture 2: The three bearings that were loose in the spool found their home in the coupler that joins the motor to the drive gear. The ends of the spool are supported by the housings at each end; the three bearings keep the coupler centered in the spool.

Rob, this picture also shows why I was concerned about how much room we had behind the spool, and why I rotated the spool by hand before applying power to wind the cable. Having the new bolt catch one of those ribs could have been disastrous.

[Cr33p3r]

So what was the end result Mike? Did everything work out after we left this afternoon?

[Hypoid]

The fun tes...uh, RUN test! :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7QBmQ1AMc4

[Hypoid]

So what was the end result Mike? Did everything work out after we left this afternoon?
It's mounted and the new cable has been spooled.

We didn't do a load test. It sounds like that will come soon enough. :)

[Cr33p3r]

Cool beans!:thumb::thumb:

[Brody]

Very nice work, Mike!

[Cr33p3r]

Mike I finally got to see the video, very cool test. So being the electric guru you are what kept the current from traveling while submersed?

[Rob]

Excellent video, Mike.

I'll hook it up to the 40 this weekend for a load test.

[Hypoid]

So being the electric guru you are what kept the current from traveling while submersed?
Nothing at all. In fact, some current did bleed ground, just not enough to do anything exciting.

Golden's finest tap water is not a very good electrical conductor. Copper wire is a much better conductor. More electrons took the copper bus. :)

[theluke19]

Searching for information on my superwinch via google, and ended up back at my home site :)

[Chris]

Too funny! That means you're now the web expert!

[Hypoid]

That is funny, in an ironic way! :D

Do they sell parts for these, yet?