Recovery Anyone?

[Chris]

:eek: Webster Pass Land Cruiser

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd495/cxstafford/pics/567befc4.png

http://14ers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=28790&p=342941#p342941

[Brad]

Holy Crap!! :eek:

[Patrolman]

I wonder what happened. That could almost be driven out. It looks like it may not be on a road though. The link shows the cabin completely full of snow. A window must be open.

[Chris]

Appatently it's a couple hundred yards off the road from what I read somewhere. The handicap plates raise some questions...

[Andrew]

The thought that the dude might still be inside covered by snow is rather freaky.

How did it get there...hard to tell where the road is....

Webster is not exactly the best place to do a recovery.

[Brody]

The thought that the dude might still be inside covered by snow is rather freaky.

Naw....when I was on rescue groups we called these 'corpsicles' and you would be surprised how easy it is to move a frozen body. Much easy than trying to move an unfrozen one....Hell, I would have looked to see. I am kind of surprised that these folks didn't look. Bodies don't bother me too much unless it is someone I know...

I have both skied and snowshowed Webster Pass and it gets rude up there above treeline in the winter. Way before Keystone opened the back bowls up, we used to ski from Montezuma to the top of the pass, then hook a U turn and ski back toward Keystone, then drop off the back bowls, ski down through Keystone to the car we parked there then back home. About a 13 mile trip+-, but a good day (or two as we sometimes did this as an overnighter) and a lot of exercise. Once we got above treeline is was usually pretty harsh, but entertaining...

[Chris]

Related: http://www.nytimes.com/1981/01/03/us/dakota-teen-ager-recovers-after-being-frozen-stiff.html

Nature performs many astonishing feats, yet it is a different matter altogether when we human beings push past the boundaries of normal. It was a viciously cold morning in Lengby, Minnesota, when a man discovered his 19-year old neighbor, Jean Hilliard, lying in the snow. Her whole body was frozen solid from the night before, when temperatures dropped twenty-five degrees below zero. Apparently, Jean was trying desperately to reach her neighbor for help when her car skidded off the road. When her body was discovered she was immediately sent to the local hospital, where her condition stunned the doctors. One of the nurses said that Jean was “so cold, it was like reaching into a freezer” and that “her face was absolutely white, just this ashen, death look.” Jean was also seriously frostbitten, and none of her limbs would bend or move.

The hospital staff did everything possible, yet the situation was dire. Even if Jean were to regain consciousness, she would more than likely have severe brain damage, and she was frostbitten to the degree that both her legs would have to be amputated. Her family gathered in prayer, hoping for a miracle. 2 hours later, Jean went into violent convulsions, and regained consciousness. She was perfectly fine, mentally and physically, although a bit confused. Even the frostbite was slowly disappearing from her legs to the doctors’ amazement. She was released 49 days later without losing a single finger, and sporting only minor scars.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd495/cxstafford/pics/363dcc82.png

[Mporter]

That's some crazy stuff.

[Brody]

A lot of the people we recovered had been buried under avalanche debris for quite some time....days or weeks. One of the reasons I quit the rescue services was that there was always this panicked rush to find or recover someone who had been buried for a very long time. One of the other ones was that a lot of so called rescue groups (not all, as there do happen to be some good ones scattered around), tend to attract people with little or no outdoor experience, especially the climbing rescue groups, which attract people who have little knowledge of climbing, but want all the recognition and cool "toys". Bad attitude, I suppose, but I could never understand the big rush. It wasn't like someone was bleeding to death with some gusher that had to be stopped ASAP...To me, there are times when you simply have to rush in order to save someone's life, but usually not in the case of avalanche victims, unless you are right there when it happens. At any rate, I was informed that I had "a bad attitude" more than once when it came to rescuing people.

That lady is lucky she didn't suffer brain damage. Something to be said for sub zero temps, I suppose. One of the patients I had when I was working at Swedish on the neurotrauma floor was a guy who had drowned and had been without oxygen for around 8 minutes. The first responders managed to get him up and running again, but he had basically the brain functions of a turnip...had to be hand fed, didn't know where he was, who he was, couldn't read, almost couldn't speak, didn't recognize his family, had to wear a diaper, etc. Made me glad I have a DNR dogtag...I get that screwed up, I sure don't want to stick around...

BTW, I didn't turn up anything on this is any Google searches. I imagine someone has run the guy's plates, but there wasn't anything besides the link that Chris posted.

[Haku]

The BBC did a very cool episode all about how cold temperatures can limit severe brain injury while de-fibrillation equipment is brought to the scene. They referenced a case in Sweden where a Radiologist fell into a crevasse that had a ton of water flowing into it after she fell skiing and slid into it. This is the intro to the Wikipedia article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm


Anna Elisabeth Johansson Bågenholm[1] (born 1970) is a Swedish radiologist from Vänersborg, who survived after a skiing accident in 1999 left her trapped under a layer of ice for 80 minutes in freezing water. During this time she became a victim of extreme hypothermia and her body temperature decreased to 13.7 °C (56.7 °F), the lowest survived body temperature ever recorded in a human with accidental hypothermia.[3] Bågenholm was able to find an air pocket under the ice, but suffered circulatory arrest after 40 minutes in the water.

After rescue, Bågenholm was transported by helicopter to the Tromsø University Hospital, where a team of more than a hundred doctors and nurses worked in shifts for nine hours to save her life. Bågenholm woke ten days after the accident, paralyzed from the neck down and subsequently spent two months recovering in an intensive care unit. Although she has made an almost full recovery from the incident, late in 2009 she was still suffering from minor symptoms in hands and feet related to nerve injury. Bågenholm's case has been discussed in the leading British medical journal The Lancet, and in medical textbooks.

Pretty crazy stuff there. The TV show went on to profile a bunch of doctors who have started lowering body and brain temperature during surgeries, especially ones that require cutting off blood supply and such. I know another area that leading edge athletic trainers have been using is ultra cold temperature exposure. They below zero chambers, and have someone stand in with barely any clothing on. They do it just before bodily harm comes to the person, but long enough that the body reacts to it. Evidently its making a difference too. I know Mark Webber, the Formula 1 driver, used it after he crashed on his mountain bike and broke his leg. He had to do a rapid recovery to get ready for the Formula 1 season and that was a major part of rehabilitating the leg.

As for the FJ80, I would have tried to see what was inside a bit better and probably would have tried to crack the doors. The guy who found the vehicle made the excuse for not doing so as fearing not being able to close the door again. I suppose that is legit, and to let someone with more authority deal with it. He didn't' call the Forest Service or Sheriff either though, which I think is a major bummer given the likelihood of there being a body in there. I think someone let them know though, so it will be interesting to hear what the outcome is.

[Rob]

The TV show went on to profile a bunch of doctors who have started lowering body and brain temperature during surgeries, especially ones that require cutting off blood supply and such.

Remember Buffalo Bill Kevin Everett's spinal injury and the doctors' decision to lower his body temp immediately? Good story about it here:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=did-hypothermia-therapy-allow-kevin-everett-to-walk

[Chris]

I had to read that just to see who Buffalo Bill Kevin Everett was. :rolleyes:

I guess I need to brush up on my Football. Interesting story, maybe the nederland ice man will be back!

[Rob]

maybe the nederland ice man will be back!

:lmao: My favorite local Libertarian takes care of the old dead Norwegian.

[southpaws3]

military has cold weather training then there's COLD TRAINING the navy seals they spend 85% of there career in 50-or below temp water so their mind/bodies don't get shocky . my team got to train w/ them in alaska,to them it was 2nd nature, amazing i learned how to build a igloo, snow shower,shelters ,water survival but dammm it was cold

hey brody do you remember the bumcicles we had to go get and bring into the hospital to rethaw that were frozen to the sewer exhaust vents, inside dumpsters ,or super drunks that were frozen asleep lying on the ground around the bus stops. down by the platte river a few yrs ago homeless persons managed to get a drain gate open and crawled inside we were called by denver police,denver city maintance people found the homeless people frozen inside the water that had tried to drain out and encapsulated them

[Brody]

I vaguely remember about the bums and the freezing stuff...

[Chris]

Back to the LC - It's been there since October when it apparently slid off the trail and couldn't get back on. The owner abandoned it, alerted the Forest Service and was told by tow services that they wouldn't try to retrieve it until Spring. A good example of why people should have a network. If this was a FR4x4 member the truck wouldn't still be there.

[Chris]

Copied from RS where the owner posted his story.



The story first hand:

I live in Denver and frequently drive up to Vail for work, which was the case early in October. It was a nice warm day and a friend was visiting from Chicago. I decided to drive up 285 to give him a taste of Colorado (he was considering moving here at the time). Having a difficult time saying no to any mountain adventure, I decided to see what condition the trail up through Webster pass was in. Once there I couldn’t resist checking to see if the Red Con gate was open. Having done Red Cone 3 or 4 times prior I assumed the gate would be closed this time of year but was pleasantly surprised to see it wasn't. Had a full tank and thought why not.

Once we got to the summit I asked my friend to scope out the three descents that drop down to the top of Webster. Mistake #1

(As you've all deducted by the handicap plates I can't move around all that great. Spinal cord injury 10 years ago left me with paralysis and I manage my transportation with wheelchair, crutches, my beloved cruiser and anything else I can strap myself on to for fun)

My friend returns from his recon mission and reported a bit of snow on the trail but nothing the cruiser couldn't easily manage. I take his word for it. Mistake #2

First decent: Dry, no problem.

Second decent: Snow, sliding with little control of speed, only direction (no brakes, low, 1st gear)

I manage to stop 20ft prior to the narrowest section (where death is certain if you slide off to the left) only to find there was a snowdrift 3-4ft high. At this point I realize the magnitude of our problem. As I assume most if not all of you have done this trail you know I have no way of getting back up the hill at this point.

Worth noting that as this whole trip was off the cuff all my recovery gear was left at home (novice mistake for which I'll never forgive myself) and I never checked the various websites for trail conditions.

I tried going slightly off the right side of the trail and immediately started side-sliding down. The rock is so loose that traction is impossible. I realize all is lost. Parked the car where you see it now and fell asleep for the night. Around 1am a buddy shows up to rescue us. The hike down to his car 50 yards below Webster (south side) was a two hour adventure in itself but we managed to get back home around 6am (all three wives pleasantly pissed off).

Woke up a few hours later to try and organize a recovery mission. Rocky Mountain Rescue and the Forrest Service gave me a few names of people that constantly rescue idiots like myself. Everyone turned me down until the following day, which brought with it a massive snowstorm. From that point on nobody was willing to help me out.
Four months later (last night 11:30) the police showed up at my mom’s house asking for me. Half hour later they call my house in Denver to inquire about my truck which apparently made it’s way on to a few websites over the weekend and someone called it in. Being a fan of Rising Sun and i8mud I immediately checked and discovered the fate to date of my beloved cruiser.

From the beginning I should have hit you guys up for help. Mistake #3

Worth noting that I’ve been an avid 4x4 enthusiast for most my life. Growing up in the mountains I dreamed of one day getting my hands on an FZJ80. After a few Toyotas I finally found her in the fall of 09’ with 73,000mi (1993) and pulled the trigger. I was saving up to get her more equipped over this winter and have plenty of adventures in the years to come.

It was painful to see these pictures and now I’m not so sure of what I’m in for when I get her down. I’m committed and will do everything in my power to get her back in form.

So there you have it, first hand. I should of reached out to the Toyota tribe prior, and it f…. kills me to read that there was support to get her out before the conditions got to bad. I reach out to you now and hope some of you are in for a recovery mission as soon as the mother nature permits.

Thanks for the concern and sarcasm.

PS. My buddy from Chicago is now a proud resident of Colorado.

[Haku]

Oh good...I'm really glad its just a stuck vehicle and not a missing persons case. Sucks about the Cruiser, but live and learn I guess. Not sure about them, but I would try to get that thing down ASAP so all that snow and ice inside doesn't melt and mildew everything. Kinda doubt that will happen though, as its usually June or July when that area opens up. Maybe they'll let people up just for the recovery (waves his hands as a volunteer :hibye: ).

[Chris]

Some RS people hinted at a recovery but I suspect everyone realizes it's simply not a good idea at this time of year. The driver and passenger are okay, the truck's replaceable and a lesson was well-learned. Sometimes that has to be enough but you never know. If anyone organizes a recovery it would be Rising Sun since they're a Land Cruiser club more than a Toyota club.

Here's their thread, looks like a possible hike is being considered: http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?p=175786#post175786

[Haku]

Some RS people hinted at a recovery but I suspect everyone realizes it's simply not a good idea at this time of year. The driver and passenger are okay, the truck's replaceable and a lesson was well-learned. Sometimes that has to be enough but you never know. If anyone organizes a recovery it would be Rising Sun since they're a Land Cruiser club more than a Toyota club.

Yeah...by ASAP I didn't mean immediately. I think the only way you could get it out now would be by air lift, and with the high winds that would still be quite the feat. Pretty sure you could buy a new built Land Cruiser for the same cost that it would take to rent a Helicopter capable of lifting a 6500 lb. FJ80. Might be able to do it with a Snowcat, but that would be leary in a few places too, considering that its still above the last steep section. I don't think it looks good for the interior of that vehicle. I see a complete interior replacement in his future. Pretty crazy that the snow got in through all the cracks and ventilation and such though. Gotta love Mother Nature.

[SCRubicon]

My first thought was stolen/abandoned. Hopefully it isn't pillaged and left for scrap by summer.

[Jackie]

:thumb: Seriously...

[tbalcome]

That picture reminds me of pics one of my old co worker had from this time working in Antarctica.

[Brody]

If that rig belongs to a Rising Sun member, then I would imagine that RS folks will organize a recovery run. If not, then maybe we can offer to do it, but that would reflect pretty badly on RS if they can't get enough folks from their group to help with a recovery of one of their members rigs. Anyone on the RS forum can post any updates. If it was this forum, the rig would have already been recovered before they closed the pass.......

I just re read the article about the frozen woman in Minnesota that Chris posted. Take a really good look at what she is wearing. Figure that she was driving around in Minnesota in the wintertime with sub zero temperatures (or at least extremely cold). Now take another good look at what she is wearing for winter in Minnesota. Personally, I do not have any sympathy for someone who isn't bright enough to carry extra (or not even extras....maybe just a winter coat) winter gear in a place like that. Darwin has some good points to make. People that ignore the basic stuff get what they deserve.

Most of the 'rescues' that I have done that involved stuck wheelers (luckily not from this group, and mostly from getting flagged down on a road somewhere), the 'wheelers' have been in a spot, usually alone, that they shouldn't have been in in the first place, they were woefully unprepared as far as clothing, recovery gear, extra food or water, and basic knowledge of anything regarding the outdoors. Most of these were younger people, in t shirts, with no jackets or warm cloths, no knowledge of first aid (there were usually some broken bones, cuts, separations, dings and bruises), etc., and alone. They usually didn't have sense enough to start a fire, even though they had plenty of matches/lighters and smoked. They were all almost universally unraveled to the point where they weren't even especially rational.

I emphasis this a lot, and am going to do it again here:
Be prepared.
Let someone know where you are going and when you expect to return.
Carry extra cloths, food and water.
Carry a first aid kit and know the basics of first aid.
Carry a compass in addition to your GPS, plus a map that shows elevations, not your crappy MVUM
If you go out alone (which I like to do, BTW, hiking, rock/ice climbing, snowshoeing, wheeling) be prepared to 'suck it up and deal with it' if things turn to ****. See 'be prepared'.

It isn't the end of the world if things go wrong, even if you have something broken or dislocated miles from help....if you have the right mental attitude. It isn't a big deal to have to spend an unexpected night out....if you have some minimum survival gear/skills....and the right mental attitude.

Someone like this woman, dressed for a Minnesota winter in her cute mall clothes, pretty much deserves to die simply due to stupidity in my book. I don't think I would have wasted any time trying to thaw her out simply because she might, at some point, reproduce. We have enough stupid people around already....

[Funrover]

I'd go and recover that, hell yeah!

[Brody]

I'd go and recover that, hell yeah!

Keep in mind that automatically 'recovering' a rig doesn't mean that it is yours. If you were to simply 'recover' the rig and take it somewhere, you have basically committed grand theft auto as the rig either belongs to the owner still or is now owned by the insurance company.

Remember a few years ago when a bunch of folks on the forum went out to recover a member's rig that had been stolen and driven off the trail, found by the FS, and left all winter long? The owner said (more or less) that he wasn't interested in it, recover it and keep it if you want to, insurance paid for it, etc. So a bunch of folks got together, spent a bunch of time and money to get the rig, then, when all was said and done and the rig was safely located at another member's garage, the owner decided he wanted it back..

I remember that mainly because it was a really crappy, cheap, and ugly piece of business on the part of the owner, and still think so. Shitty way to do business. I think you should remember this rather well also, as I think you helped with the recovery...

[Chris]

The owner is not a RS member and the LC has been there since October. I linked the RS thread earlier and they're discussing a hike to check it out and see if there's anything they can do to mitigate the damage thst's been done and that will happen with the freeze thaw cycles coming. Everyone appears to agree that it's not feasible to try to recover the truck until Spring.

[Funrover]

I'd go and recover that, hell yeah!

Keep in mind that automatically 'recovering' a rig doesn't mean that it is yours. If you were to simply 'recover' the rig and take it somewhere, you have basically committed grand theft auto as the rig either belongs to the owner still or is now owned by the insurance company.

Remember a few years ago when a bunch of folks on the forum went out to recover a member's rig that had been stolen and driven off the trail, found by the FS, and left all winter long? The owner said (more or less) that he wasn't interested in it, recover it and keep it if you want to, insurance paid for it, etc. So a bunch of folks got together, spent a bunch of time and money to get the rig, then, when all was said and done and the rig was safely located at another member's garage, the owner decided he wanted it back..

I remember that mainly because it was a really crappy, cheap, and ugly piece of business on the part of the owner, and still think so. Shitty way to do business. I think you should remember this rather well also, as I think you helped with the recovery...

I know this, I was looking at it in a much more lite hearted/joking mood.

[Cr33p3r]

Definitely good to know that they made it ok and no one was stuck in the unit.

[Redcreeper]

If that rig belongs to a Rising Sun member, then I would imagine that RS folks will organize a recovery run. If not, then maybe we can offer to do it, but that would reflect pretty badly on RS if they can't get enough folks from their group to help with a recovery of one of their members rigs. Anyone on the RS forum can post any updates. If it was this forum, the rig would have already been recovered before they closed the pass.......

Brody,

As stated in another post here the Cruiser is not a RS members and that should not matter. Were are a big family in this sport and i have seen hands come from long distances to help those in need. Should not matter what forum you are on. I am sure if he knew about these it would not be up there no matter who or what forum or club. By saying if it were this forum it would not be up there is a poke saying we are better then others to other clubs and forums wheather you mean it or not. Maybe we should have the Forest Service have this info not just the towing companies that are offering to help retrieve a vehickle. Not going to get politickal here but the guy is not a member to any club but is friends with Co Worker of a RS member. Friend of a friend deal. And to say one of us would of had him out may be jumping. Weather is so unpredictable here. Though possible a storm rolled in the next day and that is why the tow companies said not till spring. The driver had a buddy from out of town with him who wanted to see some of what colorado was about and that is where this all started. The driver is in a wheel chair and got into a situation up there and could not get out safely. He also admitted to the mistakes he made. One of them being not knowing of the support he would of had if he did call on our community of wheelers, RS, FR, and there are others i am sure. RS has been working out the details of getting him out but if anybody has a resource here that may help i dont see them turning it down. Weather is playing huge role but we have folks waiting and ready when it does break. If you want to keep up with the updates or have something to offer chime in on the RS link above. And again Brody not picking a fight just my .02 as i have seen this sport change so much over the years from just clubs to online clubs but the one thing that remains is we are all family here.

[Brody]

No argument, Kenny, and no argument about pitching in to help. The point I was making is that most groups tend to do their own recoveries and it he was member of any specific group, then that recovery is already in the works. Recoveries work the same way as rescues. Get too many people involved and it takes twice as long, doubles the confusion and there end up being way too many bystanders.

If someone knows how to get in touch with this guy or gal, then by all means do so and there will be people here who will step up and help out, including me if time and money allow. If 50 people want to go and recover this rig, then count me out as I have seen way too many Chinese Swarm Screws when it comes to rescues of any kind, people or rigs.

[Redcreeper]

Brody,

I understand the chinese fire drill all to well. Since the owner is not part of a group RS has stepped in to try to recover it and handle the recovery effort. I don't want to get politickal but that is the recovery effort at this time from what i understand. Right now there are only a few folks working on the recovery with plenty of volunteers at the ready. More to the fact that the area and conditions take certain equipment, skill and knowledge. I don't think you will see me up there with a Soft Top that has plenty of gaps and only a few good snaps holding it down and no heat trying to fight the 60 plus winds even though my rig maybe more than cable to help on the extraction. RS has discussed getting up there by hiking, snowshoeing or skiing in and get the snow out of it and plastic wrap it to try to mitigate the damage till it is possible to get up there and pull it out. Just keep an eye on the RS thread and like i said if anyone has resources that may help please post up. See you on the trails.

[wakkjobb]

That's pretty dang scary to think about "what could have happened" but I am glad the owner is safe/alive. Equally interesting to think of the (apparently) solo-hiker who found the thing... guess he knows what he's doing; hiking above treeline in winter conditions and so on. If I found that, I don't think I would have opened the doors either... a little too spooky. At least the guy is owning up to his mistakes and not trying to pass off the blame; here's hoping he applies what he's learned on his next trip.

>>Dan

[Ardent]

Looks like the 80 has been rescued. http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/504243-80-rescue-story-led-one-your-moderators.html

Plopped in a new battery and drove it home!

[Chris]

Pretty cool, some RS folks did it the other day: http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=15082

[SCRubicon]

27 pages worth of yapping about it, really? I didn't think it was that much of a big deal. But, I guess they had to be over anal about every last little detail almost down to what they were going to wear... :rolleyes: :lmao:

[Heather]

Wow, that's a really entertaining story!

[MelloYello]

I just can't believe that yoda was not stripped down to the frame after being there so long. Does this mean there is hope for the human race? Or is Mexico all filled up on yoda parts?

[Jackie]

SOOOO cool that noone messed with it. RS did a great job of recovery. Glad it turned out to be so easy and that the owner has his truck back in good shape.:thumb:

[Java]

27 pages worth of yapping about it, really? I didn't think it was that much of a big deal. But, I guess they had to be over anal about every last little detail almost down to what they were going to wear... :rolleyes: :lmao:


:lmao::lmao::lmao: But still, good job RS!!

[Haku]

I just can't believe that yoda was not stripped down to the frame after being there so long. Does this mean there is hope for the human race? Or is Mexico all filled up on yoda parts?

I think the key to that not happening was them essentially getting it off the trail within a week of the trail opening. Also, I think it helps that Red Cone is mostly known to wheelers and the Land Cruiser was after the first big steep hill that would scare average people away.

I'm glad they got it home, and after all the speculation and fretting that it was an easy recovery.

[96blkbeauty]

I thought the same thing.

[Brody]

27 pages worth of yapping about it, really? I didn't think it was that much of a big deal.

X2. At least they managed to get the rig off the trail and it wasn't too jacked up....or jacked....

[Newb Tourist]

Wow that pic is every bit as incredible as this story! Can't believe all it needed was a new battery at that point...

[Captain]

Reminds me of a really old episode of Top Gear (the british version) where they tried like heck to kill a diesel Toy pickup. Chained it down in the ocean for a day underwater, bunch of other ridiculous stuff. I think what finally killed it was parking it on top of a building that they subsequently imploded. I think it actually started after that, though. Yotas are hard to kill (believe me, I tried...)!