Have to tackle this ticking

[Brad]

I am hoping someone has heard this and may have some insight into the part I should be tracking down.
Here is what I know. Started very subtly, over time has gotten louder and has stopped at what you hear in the video. After researching I am looking at the tappets as a possible culprit but am not familiar enough with the pushrod system to say for sure. To me it sounds loudest at the back of the passenger head. I have tried a Land Rover repair forum suggestion of a high capacity oil filter and switching to rotella 15w 40 oil. I also added Lucas oil additive for quieting down engine noise. I could have a oil pressure issue but do not have the tool to test it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7g_rMl46U8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Java]

I'm no mechanic, but that sounds like a rocker arm getting hit to me. Are your valves adjustable? Maybe cam wear?

[Brad]

I am thinking of removing my valve covers just to check that very think Paul. As far as I have read in the shop manual I have not come across a procedure to adjust the valves.

[otisdog]

Hydraulic lifter that's goofing up?
I'm not sure what type system your LR has but probably best to ask on an LR forum.
Jim

[Brad]

Already doing that Jim! ;)

[Brad]

Update. Since it is so easy to pull the valve cover and rocker, I did.
Rocker
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/1a46c305.jpg
Close up of the center of the rocker.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/4e463065.jpg
With rocker removed:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/7ab1f24b.jpg

Is it just me or are those oil passages by the bolt holes really gunked up?

[Popsgarage]

Not that bad, really. My moneys on a partially collapsed lifter. Shouldn't be to bad a job. If you do one, you might as well do them all. Worst part is pulling the intake manifold. Are all of the pushrod passages clear. In the bottom pic, the fourth pushrod passage looks clogged.

[Aaron]

I think it's because your spark plugs are all pointing in different directions... Thats it!

[Brad]

Not that bad, really. My moneys on a partially collapsed lifter. Shouldn't be to bad a job. If you do one, you might as well do them all. Worst part is pulling the intake manifold. Are all of the pushrod passages clear. In the bottom pic, the fourth pushrod passage looks clogged.

No. Optical illusion. By lifter do you mean the tappets?
I cleaned it all up. Moved all the tappets up and down and did not feel any resistance. I know they all have a internal oil control, is that what you mean by collapsed?



http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/3d8ad861.jpg

[Molley]

yes tappest are lifters and did you run engine with out valve cover on ? you can most likley see one of the rockers not moving as much as others that means thats the one .remember oil is going to kinda splash out .and if you do replace one or all the lifters you should treat it as a new motor break in cause the new lifters have to break into there new home . if you pull them all out ,, and only replace one,,, reinstall them into same spots from where they came out of cause thats there home is and they have already worn into the cam in that spot , and if you do reinstall old ones and have pulled them out do a quick check to see if the bottom of lifter is flat or kinda round .. flat is bad= replace ,,, roundish is good . hope this helps have fun

[Brad]

Thanks Bill! What do I need to check for lubrication? Is it possible the lifter failed due to improper lubrication?

[Hypoid]

if the bottom of lifter is flat or kinda round .. flat is bad= replace
Concave is bad too. :frown:

Definately reinstall the rockers and look for even travel amongst all of them.

It's hard to tell if the cylinders are making even compression. Is the exhaust sound even? When you crank it over, is the cranking speed consistent?

I wouldn't be surprised if you have a lifter stuck in it's bore. That would be lucky. :)

[Molley]

proply not .unless the little hole on side of lifter is plugged , that little hole allows oil into lifter so it has oil to pump . . and if that happens lifter has no cushion <springy> and makes noise . did you notice any change in sound after you added oil additive ? did you look at dip stick and see any metal flakes ?

[Molley]

if you find the rocker that is not moving up and down as much as others and you think there is a possability that you might have stuck lifter due to oil sludge, remove rocker arm and shoot air from a air gun down the hole in your push rod while its set into lifter .. 30 percent chance it might blow crap out of hole and you dont have to pull anything else apart .. good luck and i meant 3% chance ..

[Brody]

Not being a big engine mechanic, my first thought would also be lifters. I picked up a 68 Chevy Impala back in the early 70s with a similar sound for a song. Guy thought the engine was gone, I thought lifters. I simply replaced all the lifters, relatively cheap and easy to do, especially on a Chevy 350, drove it for a year (minus engine noise) and sold it for more than I had into it.

My guess is that Land Rover engine parts almost require financing. I would just try to locate the shitty lifter, if that is what it is, and replace it. Better to replace all, in my mind, but it always comes down to $$.

[Brad]

I agree Pete. A whole set runs about $200. Not bad if you ask me. Since I have to take off the intake manifold to do the bad one I am going to replace them all. I am also going to do a oil pressure test just to be sure I am producing good pressure.

Huge thank you to everyone for the help!

[Hypoid]

A whole set runs about $200. Not bad if you ask me. Since I have to take off the intake manifold to do the bad one I am going to replace them all.
Yup, that is how it starts: Cam, timing set, oil pump, bearings, quick trip to the machine shop...

[Hypoid]

if you find the rocker that is not moving up and down as much as others and you think there is a possability that you might have stuck lifter due to oil sludge, remove rocker arm and shoot air from a air gun down the hole in your push rod while its set into lifter .. 30 percent chance it might blow crap out of hole and you dont have to pull anything else apart .. good luck and i meant 3% chance ..It's kind of like closing the barn door after the animals get out, but an old timer told me to add a quart of ATF to the crankcase to free up a sticky lifter. The reasoning is that the lighter weight oil, with all it's detergent additives, will penetrate and break down the sludge. I'll run ATF over Sea Foam any day.

[Molley]

Yup, that is how it starts: Cam, timing set, oil pump, bearings, quick trip to the machine shop...
been down that road way too many times ...lol and i also tryed the ATF trick

[Brad]

So if this is a collapsed lifter what are the odds of something catastrophic happening as a result?

[Popsgarage]

Worst case scenario is usually a flattened or rounded cam lobe. Of course, metal shavings get into the oil and that is never good. I had an old '73 Chevy van that had a ticking lifter in and I just drove it until it started running really crappy and I just threw another cam and lifter set in it. I ran it for another few years. In theory if it's the exhaust valve that's not opening, fuel can build up in the cylinder until it hydrolocks. I've never seen it happen though. Intake valve would just make it run rough. Mike, Bill chime in on this. Like everyone said, if you replace one, you might as well do them all.

[Hypoid]

Yup, the concern at this point: Why is the lifter not working? Could be the cam lobe chewed through the bottom of the lifter. That is hard on camshafts as well.

If the lifter is coked up like those oil passages, it could be an indicator of overall neglect by a previous owner: Cheap oil, and/or infrequent oil changes, allow corrosive by products to collect in the crankcase. You say all the lifters feel spongy. That is worrisome to me.

Useage is another factor: A low mile engine that never saw the highway, will wear out faster, because of the number of dry starts involved with getting those miles. I'd look at the bigger picture before tossing a nickle into new parts.

:2c:

[Popsgarage]

Good point Mike.

[Brad]

I ordered a kit from D&D fab in Michigan today. Comes with set of lifters, camshaft, timing chain, cam gear, installation lube, oil additive for break in period.

[Molley]

good deal .so did you find a bad lifter ? or was it just a blown exhaust gasket .. ? just kidding . what did u find ? timimg chain lose ?

[Brad]

I haven't found anything yet. This is a logical conclusion based on several forums opinions and my expertise as a tech. :thumb:

[Brad]

Got this in the mail today:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/bf1a0234.jpg

Now my work is really cut out for me.
Plans are to install the cam, lifters, gear and chain, kick down cable, LED rock lights, new canvas slings for both front seats starting next Wednesday. I plan on taking a lot of pictures and reporting in every evening.

[Popsgarage]

Gitterdun!!!

[Brad]

Nice. Rave did not say anything about them. Just the coolant and radiator. And the top end and oil pan.

Hard day. Did finally get the viscous fan off. Chewed up the end if the pulley pretty good. Will be sanding down the teeth marks from my channel locks. Cracked the bolts loose on the crank pulley. Still need to figure out what I am going to do to secure the crank to remove the crank bolt.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/7253be47.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/6eef5896.jpg

Will keep updating with pics. I expect to get quite further tomorrow.

[Popsgarage]

Lookin' good brother.:thumb:

[Brody]

Still need to figure out what I am going to do to secure the crank to remove the crank bolt.

4WD, lowest gear, low range, and block the wheels and a breaker bar. I do that with Yotas a lot as they have a 225ft torque on the crank bolt. Works 98% of the time. The other 2%, you have to wing it....

[Brad]

Midday progress:
Labeled the plug wires to make reinstallation easier
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/d2e95052.jpg
Cap rotor and wires removed:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/a25c01d9.jpg
Drained the oil, while that was dripping I removed as much as possible from the intake:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/819805b4.jpg
Removed oil pan:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/f82d8236.jpg
Lower end is about how I expected for 190k miles. No metal particulates seen.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/d361e7bb.jpg

For this afternoon,
Loosen crank bolt
Drain coolant
Remove radiator
Continue disassembly of front end.
If I get ambitious possibly remove intake.

[Brad]

Lots of progress this afternoon. There is a surprise at the end!

Used wood to lock up the crank and remove the crank pulley bolt, worked like a charm!
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/9fd8a6ce.jpg

Pulley off:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/7bd2cceb.jpg

Moved on to the distributor and radiator.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/0fc4c003.jpg

Removed cover with oil pump:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/434dc7ef.jpg

Made a bolt diagram to make sure I put the 3longer bolt back in the right spot I highly recommend this:http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/1875781e.jpg

Follow these next 3 images as they zoom in on the second cylinder on the left bank.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/569125a3.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/50f1ba9a.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/4bb79f95.jpg
Blue circle is where this lifter lived:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/2568590e.jpg
Hello mr. Ticky Ticky!
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/7f3fff27.jpg

Tomorrow morning the cam comes out.

[Popsgarage]

Kinda figured. You're making progress, just follow through and get it done. You'll be ready to wheel in no time.

[Molley]

im glad to see you found the tick .nice pics :)

[Hypoid]

Yup, miracle in a can won't fix that. ;)

[Brad]

Midday update:

Secured the AC condenser to the hood with a bungee. You do not need to evacuate the system as you only need to move it up about 6 inches.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/91b8098f.jpg

Cam removed:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/a922e1d7.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/fddf8c8a.jpg

Cam lobe worn down. This is the same lobe as the bad lifter.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/51b22a6e.jpg

Cleaned up the gasket surface for the timing cover and lubed and installed new cam. Used the break in lube that came with the cam and lifters. The new cam is not machined to allow the retaining plate but per the tech blog it is not necessary. My cover has the stop built into it.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/dd11a2e8.jpg

Used the same break in lube on the contact surfaces of the lifters/tappets. installed accordingly.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/a147dd44.jpg

Attached gears one at a time and set timing marks. Removed them and set them in the chain so the matching marks aligned. Slid gears and chain on.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/a3679887.jpg

For this afternoon continue assembly.

[Funrover]

Glad to see you are getting her fixed up!

[Brad]

Not much progress this afternoon. Went looking for VR1 10w something and failed. Did manage to clean the timing cover and install the spacer, distributor drive gear and torque down the bolt. No pics of this.

[Popsgarage]

That's what they look like when they get tired, you betcha. You're gettin' there.

[Brad]

Thanks for the encouragement Jonathan! Any idea where to find break in oil with Zddp?

[Brad]

Update on oil. This is directly from mark at D&D for his cam kit.
In the kit I have a bottle of crane cam super lube break in concentrate. 99003-1
He recommended castrol gtx 10w-30 with the additive.
If at all possible attach a oil pressure gauge to the system during break in to ensure you are not dry firing the engine.
Start the engine and rev to 2000-2500 RPM for 20-25 min. After the initial break in continue to let the engine run (called run in) adjusting from idle for a while to 2000 rpm over the next hour, shut off the engine. While engine is still warm drain the oil and remove the filter, this drains out the assembly lube.
Refill oil and replace the oil filter add another super lube (mark recommends adding this on every oil change) and continue on with normal maintenance.

I have to say Mark at D&D has been a Huge help. This is a daunting task, basically open heart surgery for your engine. If you take your time and follow the steps anyone can do this.

[Brad]

Very productive day today!
Started by finishing up cleaning the timing cover. Removed the crank seal and installed the new one. fished cleaning up the cover for the new gasket. Installed and torqued the bolts down.
Installed the rockers using white lithium grease per Mark at D&D.
Installed the crank pulley, using the same wood method torqued the crank bolt down.
Checked timing then installed the distributor making sure it is in the same location when I removed it.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/0076bb8d.jpg
Rockers installed, also installed the valley pan gasket.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/04d32e26.jpg
Sorry for the blurry image. I cleaned and installed a new gasket on the oil pick up tube. Also installed the oil pan with new gasket and cleaned and installed the torque converter cover plate.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/1b4aafd5.jpg

Really just have the intake, viscous fan and radiator left.

[Popsgarage]

Glad you found out where to get the oil with zddp. I would have had to research that myself. Lookin' good man. You're almost done!!!

[Brad]

If I were doing this in a garage I would have it done tomorrow. Carport is going to be chilly tomorrow.

[Popsgarage]

Was chilly and drizzly in the driveway this afternoon and tomorrow is supposed to be even more fun.

[Hypoid]

Update on oil. This is directly from mark at D&D for his cam kit.
In the kit I have a bottle of crane cam super lube break in concentrate. 99003-1
He recommended castrol gtx 10w-30 with the additive.
If at all possible attach a oil pressure gauge to the system during break in to ensure you are not dry firing the engine.
Start the engine and rev to 2000-2500 RPM for 20-25 min. After the initial break in continue to let the engine run (called run in) adjusting from idle for a while to 2000 rpm over the next hour, shut off the engine. While engine is still warm drain the oil and remove the filter, this drains out the assembly lube.
Refill oil and replace the oil filter add another super lube (mark recommends adding this on every oil change) and continue on with normal maintenance.

I have to say Mark at D&D has been a Huge help. This is a daunting task, basically open heart surgery for your engine. If you take your time and follow the steps anyone can do this.

Did he give any instructions for pre-lubbing, or, does that matter with this engine?

[Brad]

Yes! Sorry Mike. The cam and tappets came with assembly lube. I slathered them generously. He recommended white lithium grease for the push rods as when the oil primes it will dissolve. I also found a couple clogged rocker lube holes. No pushrod damage so I cleaned them up and blew air through all of them to ensure they will get oil from now on.

[Hypoid]

I was thinking in terms of getting the oiling system pressurized before the engine fires up. I take it those two big holes on the passenger side are the oil galleys?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/434dc7ef.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/434dc7ef.jpg)

[Hypoid]

I'm thinking out loud here Brad: Maybe remove that fitting on the upper galley, and crank the engine over with the ignition off, until you get oil through the filter at the least. At that point, you know that your pump is primed, with no worries of cavitation.

[Brad]

We think alike Mike! The two oil feed lines go to the radiator, my plan was to fill them and the filter with oil first. Crank the engine manually a couple times to get oil rotating in pump. Then top up the upper line again and try cranking without the coil line or fuel pump fuse connected.

[Brad]

Back at it today.
Installed the intake.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/2d2259a5.jpg

Got on a roll, installed rocker covers, upper intake, hoses (vacuum, fuel, evap and coolant), cap and wires.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/9e76c687.jpg

Installed serp tensioner and belt.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/1b0e64bd.jpg

To finish up this afternoon, I am installing the radiator, shroud and waiting on the fan for access to the crank bolt, plan in feeding oil into the radiator access to the oil pump and cranking manually to build up the prime.

[Brad]

Really close. Doing the cam break in tomorrow morning.


Finalizing:
MAF and upper air box installed.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/4583d7db.jpg


Radiator installed
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/ecd1d03a.jpg


Air lifted the cooling system
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c112/flipswitch/95%20discovery%20cam%20replacement/55181acf.jpg

[Rick]

Good Job!!!!!:wrench::wrench::wrench::thumb::thumb:

[Brad]

Here she is! Tickless!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wSUKEysAqg&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player

Even though I am a Tech, I did not use air tools. All work done with hand tools except my airlift for coolant which is nice but not necessary. I still need to set timing. She stumbles a bit even though I cleaned out the evap ports. She did this before the cam and tappet failed. I do have a code 48 but I am not worried about that.
I really hope this thread helps someone out!

[4Runninfun]

congrats to a job well done!

[Chris]

Well done Brad, almost done! :steer:

[Aaron]

Congrats Brad!

[Brad]

Thank you guys! This was not easy. I have cross posted this on 4 forums as I could not find a write up anywhere for this procedure. If it helps 1 person on here it was worth the effort! :thumb:

[Rob]

Excellent. And nice write-up. :thumb:

[Popsgarage]

Woooohoooo!!!!! Sounds good Brad. Really good write-up. Congrats on getting it done!

[Molley]

good job well done .. you might was to run oil w zddp or additive that has it in it like "rislone engine treatment"advanced auto has it .. bout 10 buck a quart .. cheers MOLLEY

[Brad]

Thanks everyone. I was told to go back to regular oil after the second oil change. I am working on getting to a 1k miles so I can change it again but think my fuel pump is starting to go. Typical vehicle, gets some TLC and she just wants more.

[WDoG]

Good to see you fixed it. The "tick" is something that has plagued us Isuzu owners for years. I have it bad but its more of a noise issue than a real mechanical one. People have run these Isuzu engines 250K+ with the tick and no problems.

But I do have to say the tick IS annoying.

[Brad]

One common mod for the Disco is a Isuzu diesel conversion. Easier than shipping the TDI conversion from England. ;)

[WDoG]

A turbo Diesel convert would be a blast. I almost bought a Disco before the Rodeo. Always like the Disco, great fording depth stock, excellent approach and depart angles. *Tasty*