4x4 trail report site

[Brad]

I am embarrassed to say I forgot the forum/database we were linked with for trail reports. Anyone?

[carpenle]

Trail Damage?

[Brad]

No, we had a link in our forum when you filled out a trail report.

[Brad]

It's 4x4 trail talk.
http://www.4x4trailtalk.com/forum/index.php

[Chris]

No, we had a link in our forum when you filled out a trail report.

That never got going Brad, maybe Jim would bring it back. IIRC the forum and content may still exist. Both Aaron and I tried but maybe it's time again...

[Jim]

I'd be open to build something similar to what TD offers.

What I use at TD is:
GPX files, maybe Google Earth files (possibly a repository (?top 5? most current) GPX files)
Map of "where is this trail"
Ratings (does not need to be as comprehensive as TD's)
Some description or special notes (I don't often read TD's description)

[offroadwonder]

Traildamage has spent a long time putting all those trails together. I would think that if FR4x4 was going to create something that was successful then it would need to have some kind of "value added" that makes it unique. I would assume that anything associated with FR4x4 would be very Colorado focused (then again, so is TD). Off the top of my head I think current trail conditions (i.e. is it open or not) would make it valuable, but that would come with a significant amount of updating.

[Jim]

One item that I've wondered regarding TD is what is their bandwidth during peak times? I know I have visited the site and was presented with an "we're offline" as they went over quota for the month. That would be a consideration.

Having links to the USFS pages for trails would be good.

Not having extensive photos (or any photo aside from a "for public use" map image) would keep bandwith issues down.

Making such content Members Only would be a solution but I'd be on the position to keep it public

This site maintains trial open/closed status:
http://www.bushducks.com/tripreps/passopen.htm

[Chris]

Did I delete or just hide the forum Jim? The problem with TD is with how current the info is, I've noticed some are years old which isn't very useful. Some listed are now closed which can lead to problems too.

Both Aaron and I likes and tried the wiki style setup but not many folks here are interested in learning how to use it.

[offroadwonder]

Hadn't thought about a Wiki format. That sounds like a great idea. There really isn't a lot of ” learn” involved since there are so many visual editors available now. If you can reply to a forum post, then you can edit a wiki.

[Chris]

Just for kicks I'm installing a wiki at http://4x4Trails.co if anybody would like to see how a wiki works.

[Chris]

Traildamage has spent a long time putting all those trails together.

Monica has done a great job with TD and each write-up is extensive and time-consuming. That's also its downfall since she can't keep up on all the trails current condition.


Not having extensive photos (or any photo aside from a "for public use" map image) would keep bandwith issues down.


Without photos it would be pretty boring visually.


Hadn't thought about a Wiki format.

You overestimate the typical user as is pretty evident when you look at what's out there. On close examination you'll see one or two people provide the information on all directory sites, especially wiki type sites.

--------------------

Between Aaron's effort when Admin and mine when Admin we tried numerous methods that fell flat.

As I already mentioned, but have taken it a bit farther by providing a list of trails, at http://4x4trails.co. It uses the wiki format, is easily edited and I have not enabled image uploads.

I have an unused hosting account that I put this on so it's not costing me anything. I won't be surprised when it's pretty much as it is today a month from now.

[Brad]

I like the idea, not too sure I like a wiki without the front range 4x4 brand only because it is us risking our vehicles to gather the information. I would speculate that is why trail damage is not editable by the public. I would also add their pictures are limited to a set size to keep the bandwidth down.

[Chris]

As Jim mentioned, bandwidth seems to be an issue even with the small pics they use. I don't know of any front range folks risking their trucks for anything. My point has been that 4x4 folks are not wiki folks regardless of anything else. As I said, I have yet to see a successful 4x4 wiki. I have $6.00 invested in what you see on some free space of mine until it expires. My point is that even pointing FR people to it will result in little content.

[Tom]

Monica has done a great job with TD and each write-up is extensive and time-consuming. That's also its downfall since she can't keep up on all the trails current condition.



Without photos it would be pretty boring visually.



You overestimate the typical user as is pretty evident when you look at what's out there. On close examination you'll see one or two people provide the information on all directory sites, especially wiki type sites.

--------------------

Between Aaron's effort when Admin and mine when Admin we tried numerous methods that fell flat.

As I already mentioned, but have taken it a bit farther by providing a list of trails, at http://4x4trails.co. It uses the wiki format, is easily edited and I have not enabled image uploads.

I have an unused hosting account that I put this on so it's not costing me anything. I won't be surprised when it's pretty much as it is today a month from now.

Yep I agree.

[Brad]

I was talking about carnage and fuel costs. I suppose you have no carnage or expense? ;)

[Jim]

I was talking about carnage and fuel costs.

IMO this is a cart and horse, which is first, issue. I'm going on a trail, and typically record GPS breadcrumbs, because I want to visit the trail. What I do with the breadcrumbs/tracklog & photos is an after-the-fact item, and a bonus if they can get re-used to benefit others. Fuel cost and carnage - they are my issues because I wanted to visit the trail "for me". I'm not hitting trails for the primary purpose of documentation with my desire second. If I don't want to run a trail, I won't, and I would not have any items to contribute.

Should a wiki wish to be wrapped up with the FR site, I'd be open to it. I'll also be curious to see if the Wiki changes in 30 days, as folks wonder.

Now, to promote it, I could put a banner item here at FR with a link to the wiki. Chris, if you have a suggestion on doing this, holler (I have a thought I'll toy with too).

[Chris]

Exactly Jim, I'd never go out with the sole intent of making a report. A good report sure is a nice byproduct though. I do recall having a Trail Directory forum that failed to go over using the regular forum format.

My wiki is just a sample since I had unused hosting. It will expire along with the hosting.

I don't recall everything we tried in the past but I'm pretty sure we tried MediaWiki which is the best free standing wiki. There's also a vBulletin add-on that we tried. Someother attempts too.

[Chris]

The memory clicked! There once was a way to embed MediaWiki into vBulletin so the registrations carried over. That's not the case any longer. I also think the one that's supposed to be a seamless integration is not free but too expensive to buy to experiment with.

[offroadwonder]

On the integration front, I am curious why vBulletin? I am new here and certainly have no pull to suggest a switch, but other software seems to be much friendlier to integrating a forum with other services. Plus vBulletin seems really clunky to me.

[Jim]

Well, Chris, the group's founder may have good insight on the "why" from a history perspective. As for me being the current admin, the why is more of the realm of "if it ain't broke it don't need fix'n".

I can be swayed so if anyone wants to make an educated and comprehensive sales pitch, I'll listen.

[Chris]

On the integration front, I am curious why vBulletin? I am new here and certainly have no pull to suggest a switch, but other software seems to be much friendlier to integrating a forum with other services. Plus vBulletin seems really clunky to me.

In my opinion it's the best forum software, which do you feel is better? Integrating with what other services?

I didn't start with vBulletin but after a forum database crash & burn I decided to use it. On that note we celebrate our anniversary as March 8th which is when I started with vBulletin. I succeeded in booting an old machine I have and found the real date this was started which was 10/09/2007. The first 5 months was lost forever.

[Tom]

Exactly Jim, I'd never go out with the sole intent of making a report. A good report sure is a nice byproduct though. I do recall having a Trail Directory forum that failed to go over using the regular forum format.

My wiki is just a sample since I had unused hosting. It will expire along with the hosting.

I don't recall everything we tried in the past but I'm pretty sure we tried MediaWiki which is the best free standing wiki. There's also a vBulletin add-on that we tried. Someother attempts too.

I've two types of wiki available on my domains. PHPwiki and TIKIWIKI. If there is interest I could set up a subdomain on one of my sites and configure them for comparison purposes.

[ExplorerTom]

TD is a great resource, but I agree, it can be improved upon.

If TD was all you used, the MVUM would mean nothing to you becaues I don't believe I've ever seen it mentioned on that site. Having a link to it for that trail would be nice- it also shows the other trails in the area. A picture of the zoomed in section of the trail on the MVUM on the trail description would be nice as well. I feel the maps on TD are worthless. They give you the shape of the trail, but without any reference points (roads, highways, towns.....) they don't do a lot of good. You almost HAVE to have it loaded via GPX into a device. But some of us are old school (or haven't spent our money on those toys yet) and still use paper maps.

TD also doesn't always list which ranger district the trail lies in. Having a link to that would be good- also solved by the link to the MVUM.

Some of the info is certainly out of date. For example, after trying to run Schubarth Road near Woodland Park in February, we were greeted to a closed gate. The TD site says the trail is open April to November- BUT the MVUM has it open year round. I'll trust the MVUM before TD on closures. The closure was actually due to the fire (don't remember the name) last June/July- and from the posted sign, I doubt it'll be open any time soon. I emailed Monica after I got home and told her. I forget what her response was but the page for that trail still does not reflect that closure. I guess getting a "trail report" from a non-member doesn't go very far with TD. The closure was listed on the ranger website, but isn't reflected on the MVUM- didn't cross check that until later.

And since TD is only open to members, I'm going to speculate that their membership isn't as active as it once was. There's a dozen or more people on this forum that are more active than TD. At least from my casual observations anyway.

I have a link in my signature to a blog I started. We are pretty bad at taking pictures, but we are aware and working to improve on that. I've been trying to organize one trip a month. We had runs last August through October (before the blog) but then nothing until February. November through January are tough with weather and holidays.

GPS coordintates- not just the GPX files, to keep points on the trail- trailhead, obstacles, intersections...... I have a binder with print outs of the TD trail descriptions in my truck- it's not a complete print out, just the trails in the areas which I will be going to. Sometimes plans change mid-trip and you decide to run a different trail than you have the GPX file for, but you have the GPS coordinates.

Any kind of trail reporting website without pictures is pretty useless, IMO. TD does have lots of pictures. And possibly too many- do we really need to see a dozen pics of each rig going through the same obstacle......

[Backcountryislife]

I think that if you had an editable site (wiki) that multiple users could enter trail reports in, you'd find that you'd end up with a pretty small number of folks actually adding content (like any forum, 90% of the posts are done by 5% of the users... nothing new there) but as it grew, it'd find more of those 5% types, and people would filter info to them as the y find out about issues & conditions.

IMO, IF the cost can be done reasonably it's something worth pursuing. I think it would need to have the kind of info that TD has (ratings & basic guide) in order to draw the people to provide current info though.

[offroadwonder]

Just for kicks I'm installing a wiki at http://4x4Trails.co if anybody would like to see how a wiki works.

Chris, did you already pull the wiki? I finally got some time and was going to sit down and explore a bit, but it seems that I am too late.

[Chris]

Oops! I just checked and apparently used it for something else, sorry.

IIRC Tom offered to fly a trial wiki too. Maybe we can go that route or Jim may want to give it a try on the site.

Just checked and I had it up for 2 weeks with no use which is exactly what I expected to happen over 4 weeks.

[offroadwonder]

Keep in mind that you put it up when a vast majority of trails are impassible. So there really wouldn't be many opportunities to write any trail reports.

In any case, I am going to start playing with the Tiki software suite. It looks really interesting. Maybe it is a candidate for building a trail encyclopedia.

[Chris]

Go for it! As far as the weather is concerned it didn't make any difference when we tried it in the past.

[offroadwonder]

I am sure you're right. I think I am coming at this with the naive go-get-er attitude that always starts off with some idea of changing the world, but ends up realizing that everyone else was right all along. But is still wanna explore!

[Chris]

Who knows? There are a lotof people here now that weren't before! :thumb:

[alexb]

Both Aaron and I likes and tried the wiki style setup but not many folks here are interested in learning how to use it.

I definitely like the wiki style. It's as easy or easier than these forum replies.

[Jim]

When you have a URL, list it here and I'll see about promoting it via a notice banner

[Tom]

When you have a URL, list it here and I'll see about promoting it via a notice bannerI put up a wiki for experimenting if anyone wants to play. I'll leave it up for a month or so for feedback. If nothing is happening on it then it will go bye bye.

http://fr4x4.crosman.org/

[Jim]

http://fr4x4.crosman.org/

Poking through vB control panel now.

[Jim]

Hey Tom, I poked about your PHPWiki site. Does it have a process to upload files to it?

[Backcountryislife]

just created a basic description for Spring creek... not the easiest thing to work with, but it can be done.

I'd say with a setup like that, you're essentially completely unlikely to get people to work with it. People are lazy, they want much more plug & play than that.

[Tom]

Hey Tom, I poked about your PHPWiki site. Does it have a process to upload files to it?Don't know. I just created a sub-domain and installed the software from CPanel. It doesn't look like it though.

I just installed tikiwiki as well http://fr4x4.crosman.org/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=Trail+Reports
(http://fr4x4.crosman.org/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=Trail+Reports)

guest:guest to edit


Looks like I broke this last night while attempting to configure it. I'll let you know when its back.

[offroadwonder]

I imagine the Tikiwiki version will get lots more attention. It is "prettier" and more user friendly. To make it even more likely that people would use it, I think we need to use templates. I will have to play with it some tonight and see what I can build.

[Chris]

Hey Tom, I poked about your PHPWiki site. Does it have a process to upload files to it?

Yes it does but needs to be set up since it's not an "out of the box" setting. Jared is right, using templates makes it so much easier.

I just installed PHPWiki n my personal site and will refamiliarize myself as time goes on and the mood strikes.

[Chris]

PHPWiki is better than Tikiwiki IMHO though both are inferior to MediaWiki. It can be styled to be "pretty" too. The current version of MW requires a newer version of PHP than on my host and I'm too lazy to install an older version. If people get serious about this MW is the way to go.

[Tom]

I'll check to see if its available on my host next time I'm on my desktop.
PHPWiki is better than Tikiwiki IMHO though both are inferior to MediaWiki. It can be styled to be "pretty" too. The current version of MW requires a newer version of PHP than on my host and I'm too lazy to install an older version. If people get serious about this MW is the way to go.

[Chris]

Hey Jim when you have some time read through this and see if it's still possible to integrate Mediawiki with this version of vBulletin. Pretty much just allows members to edit by integrating the passwords so they can post by non-members can't. It's what I once used and was great in function even though members didn't care to use it.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VBulletin/Users_Integration

[offroadwonder]

Mediawiki is a great option if it is available. It is so familiar to everyone that it might attract users on that fact alone. The only thing that I prefer from tikiwiki is the ability to embed google maps with a .gpx track on it. Maybe mediawiki could do the same, I just have never seen it.

[Chris]

Good point, I think the file types can be determined by the admin though I'm not 100% sure.

[Tom]

I'll check to see if its available on my host next time I'm on my desktop.

Mediawiki is not directly available on my host. It can be manually installed. That said, like Chris I'd have to upgrade or downgrade various other software on my host. Current Mediawiki version requires at least PHP version 5.3.2. PHP version 5.2.9 is installed on my host.

Not worth the effort for me as it could impact my business pages.

[Jim]

Perhaps I'll give it a whack - my host is at 5.3.17

[Tom]

Had issues getting tikiwiki back up. New URL http://fr4x4.crosman.org/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Trail+Report (http://fr4x4.crosman.org/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Trail+Reports)

guest:guest

[Jim]

While I would like a memberlist integration feature of a wiki (one login ID/PW), doing so would likely need the wiki to be one with FR4x4. I have one hesitation with putting the wiki on the same hosting account as the general forum: bandwidth overage issues.

Having encountered, once or twice, last season TrailDamage.com being unavailable due to bandwidth overage I'd like to keep the functions separate. The wish is to have the trail coordination forum still be running should the trail wiki go over bandwidth. Now, perhaps this is being overly cautious as any wiki we start might not get to the popularity that TD has and bandwidth issues may never happen - but I still wish to consider the possibility. Yes, purchasing more bandwidth is an option, with a price.

Thoughts?

[Tom]

I concur Jim. We'd need another domain and hosting account. Are members here willing to financially support it?

[Jim]

I have hosting space and there's enough in the fund to spring for a domain name. While it's in an infancy, my hosting will be sufficient. Should it grow and be fruitful, then it may need more which might cost something - but I'd imagine that would be down the road a bit.

What domain name do folks like?

DO NOT SEARCH TO SEE IF A NAME IS AVAILABLE! Squatters sometimes register the name if they see people searching for availability. You can punch the name into a web browser to see if it's active - just don't search for availability at a registrar. When we get a list of a few nice names, I'll search for availability and if available I'll register it right then.

EDIT: I'm still trying to get MediaWiki installed at a test site - time's a tad tight.

[offroadwonder]

EDIT: I'm still trying to get MediaWiki installed at a test site - time's a tad tight.

I understand that. I have barely had a chance to even browse to some of these test beds that you guys have set up, much less attempt editing anything.

[Brad]

Just to get the ball rolling:
Trail status
Trail report
Trail Base (like database)
Trail wiki
Wiki trail

[offroadwonder]

...or...

Trailpedia/Trailipedia
Exploropedia/Exploripedia
Wiki4x4

[alexb]

I broke it good.... http://fr4x4.crosman.org/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Dry+St.+Vrain doesn't load anymore. :)

I tried to make a sample page and Tikiwiki is just too hard to encourage easy writing. It's much more difficult than vbulletin. I can't cut/paste an image into the post and I also don't get wysiwyg.

Thanks for hosting this Tom.

[Chris]

I'm the one that did the 5 headings to spur interest, I agree that it's not as easy as people need. It can be done as another forum but even when that was tried a year or so ago it didn't catch on.

[Tom]

So I'm going to delete the wiki site. Its being hacked like the php one was previously. Chris and Alex have been the only valid visitors.