Montezuma's Revenge!!!

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

In short, here's my question - when is it OK to attempt driving through snow? I'm sure the main answer I get will be that you have to know the capabilities of your vehicle and your own driving expertise before attempting anything. Here is the background of my question and what happened to me this weekend...

I headed up to Montezuma for some off-roading - yes, alone (except for my dog). I knew this can pose risks but was extra conservative since I didn't at least have a spotter. I was on Deer Creek Pass heading toward Middle Fork something (all based on directions from a common 4x4 book). Those of you familiar with this area will probably know what I am talking about.

I had to drive through a SMALL area of snow that someone obviously had been through before. No big deal. I ended up having to take this little side road that also had what I thought was a small area of snow. Turns out the snow was close to a foot deep with serious mud underneath it. My truck ended up leaning at about 30 degrees to the left and I thought we were going to tumble down the mtn. After trying to dig out the snow (yes forgot my shovel), stick rocks under the tires, etc., I remembered my differential lockers! Those only managed to help me slide sideways out of the snow and I got back onto the road.

Then I decided to go back the way I came (yes, thru the snow I drove thru before). It was that or head up this road with like 50% grade! And yes, the snow was much less cooperative this time and I slid OFF THE ROAD and started sliding down the frickin' mountain (even though there was NO snow on the side of the mtn.)! I ended up REVERSING down the mtn. just to straighten the damn truck out and was like 30 feet from the road! I was probably at 40% grade at this time. My options were to reverse all the way back down to where I was stuck before (probably 200 feet away and not knowing terrain due to grass, etc.) or try my lockers again which eventually got me back up onto the road! But not before my truck was high centered atop the road bank with the road perpendicular to it! Eventually I made it back up, went up the 50% grade road and back to the same road I got in there with.

Seems I only have some minor scratches on the bottom of my slider bars. Were it not for those, my skid plates and those lockers, I would probably not be here right now. Most of you reading this are probably thinking "remind me never to go off-roading with that guy". I'll let you read my profile if you want more details about me but I am really not a newbie by any means (at least I don't think so) and any constructive comments are appreciated.

I also attached a picture of my truck close to where (and before) we got stuck!

Thanks!

[Rick]

when is it OK to attempt driving through snow?after my experience on Super Bowl Sunday with a group I would say never alone.......I would recommend getting a High lift Jack,winch and a shovel for future solo snow runs if you are to do that again.... Also I would pack xtra coats,etc.......in case you have to spend the night up there...... I do runs alone at times but if its starts to get to where I question it in my head I go no further...

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

Seriously there was less than 2% of the entire trail that had snow on it. I would NEVER attempt a snow run alone, probably not at all after this experience. A high lift jack would have not gotten me out of this situation due to the grades I was dealing with and I was above timberline so I would have had nothing to tie onto. I am a definite dum @$$ for not bringing my shovel or my bottle jack (not that the latter would have helped a lot either, but should be standard practice). Warm clothes a good idea too.

[Rick]

Believe me , most of us have all been there more than once!!!!!!

[Squshiee1]

I have not done solo runs, but i have been on runs where i am the only car, and in that situation, i always make sure my car is sleep ready, i bring firewood, food matches stuff like that, and i always let someone know where i am going.

I say if i'm not back before tomorrow, or x date, send help. the biggest thing is just supplies, food, water, cloths all of that stuff.

[Jim]

Most of you reading this are probably thinking "remind me never to go off-roading with that guy".

It wasn't what I was thinking.

My thoughts were: Man, I really wish someone else was here right now that could help - either by having another judgement to "should we" yes/no pursue forward or by having tools/road ready (un-stuck) vehicle for help or to drive out to get additional help (to keep anything really bad from happening).

If nothing else, it was a learning experience. The next time you arrive at a similar situation you'll think twice.

[Chris]

I don't know if we've all done something like this or not but I sure have. I had to walk away from my truck stuck in the snow as a storm was approaching. Short version - I'm here to write about it and was damn cold when I was picked up by my son-in-law. I think it cemented the value of having someone with me when doing stupid stuff. On the other hand my wife and I wheel alone a lot and we have never had any issues but we are prepared. It got a bit sketchy yesterday on Argentine Pass which coincidentally is where I once left my truck.

In answer to your question I have no real answer, it's a judgement call and while it must have been scary to be that far off the trail you made it home undamaged and unhurt. That shows you're not a rookie and that non-rookies can still run into trouble. Do you have a Front Range Rescue List?

Glad you made it home and glad you're not pretending it never happened, it's a good lesson for less experienced too.

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

I have not done solo runs, but i have been on runs where i am the only car, and in that situation, i always make sure my car is sleep ready, i bring firewood, food matches stuff like that, and i always let someone know where i am going.

I say if i'm not back before tomorrow, or x date, send help. the biggest thing is just supplies, food, water, cloths all of that stuff.


Yeah maybe I shouldn't be so eager to hit the trails without at least a spotter in the truck with me, if not a second vehicle with me. I just feel like I'm wasting a weekend if I'm not up in the mountains and have nothing else going on at home. But seriously, everything would have been fine were it not for those two 'little' patches of snow that I ran into (one of which I made it through fine the first time)!!!!

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

Thanks for the support and no, I don't have one of those Rescue Lists. But how do you call someone without a cell phone signal? (Unless you have a satellite phone)

Funny you mention a storm because my main concern was to get off the mtn. before any t-storms hit, which were predicted for yesterday afternoon. Luckily I managed to get down before it started POURING near I-70, right near Montezuma, Keystone, etc. I didn't see any lightning from the road but that was my main concern yesterday (aside from not tumbling down the mountain)!!!

[Rick]

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?18063-Front-Range-4x4-Rescue-Help-List

[ExplorerTom]

Most of you reading this are probably thinking "remind me never to go off-roading with that guy".

I was thinking: "Hey the trails near Montezuma are open! Let's go!"

[WDoG]

I do wheel alone as well. If I think something is too harry I will just turn around. No sense in getting hurt or super stuck.

Crazy story. Glad you and your rig are ok.

I'm going to camp up at Puru Creek on the 5th and do some wheeling around there. Hope the trails are good.

[Funrover]

I have done a bit of Solo wheeling in snow trails. I do pack a fair amount of items just in case. I am very cautious of my attempts however. If it looks to be more than I want to dig out of I stop. True it is always better to go with others, but if you are solo pack to sleep/eat in the car for a day or 2. Glad to hear you are out having fun!

[Funrover]

I was thinking: "Hey the trails near Montezuma are open! Let's go!"

I love the enthusiasm!

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?18063-Front-Range-4x4-Rescue-Help-List

Thanks!

[Backcountryislife]

Thanks for the support and no, I don't have one of those Rescue Lists. But how do you call someone without a cell phone signal? (Unless you have a satellite phone)



I use one of these:
http://www.inreachdelorme.com/


And I've had these:

http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=116


IMO plb's are somewhat useless, I'd rather have my friends who I KNOW know what they're doing come help me, and have the option for S&R if needed. With an inreach & the list above, you could contact anyone on that list & speak back & forth with them, knowing that you've reached someone & help is on the way.

I'm pretty anti snow wheeling myself, as I see a TON of tundra being destroyed, which in years of dealing with the forest circus means that they've just got more motive to close the trail.

Go look at the top of N empire as you cross over to the lake right now for an example of what I mean.

[Chris]

No cell phone?

What's a PLB?

I agree about damage from snow wheelers Kaleb, I've noticed quite a bit the few times I've been out this year.

[Backcountryislife]

No cell phone?

What's a PLB?

I agree about damage from snow wheelers Kaleb, I've noticed quite a bit the few times I've been out this year.

Personal locator beacon.

http://www.satphonestore.com/acr-aquafix-2797-2.html?___store=default&___store=default


The unit is more, but there's no service attached to it and no actual communication outside of it sending a SOS message. The connect & inreach allow you to actually tell S&R or whoever what the situation is, but both have a monthly fee. Connect is $100/yr, inreach is 10/ mo.

Both of those will work when connected to a smartphone, allowing you to send messages when you're not in cell range.

This is a check in I sent on sunday to let Abby know where we were, and that all was good.

https://enterprise.delorme.com/textmessage/viewmsg?mo=08356b164e024000a7c8ea7404e7a5f23484188

You can choose to send to anyone you want with an inreach, and you can also send whatever message you want.
Also, both are capable of posting to FB which may seem trivial, but if you think of the rescue this winter that went down mostly on FB... it's no small thing. It allows people to coordinate the rescue where they can come up with a plan of attack & bring in others if needed... and as it did for Mychael it can spread from place to place very quickly. (the guy who sent the "need help" message for him was in WA, and it got around online here fast.) Had he been using one of these devices we would have gotten to him HOURS sooner as we would have had a location instead of guessing, and having him give the wrong road as he did (bad map told him he was on S spring gulch when he was really just on upper saxon mtn).... HUGE difference in the best way to get to him in the winter.

Oh, both will work without a cell as well, but the Connect will only send SOS, where the inreach will send one of 3 predetermined messages and SOS without it.

[ILuvtheMountains]

No cell phone?

What's a PLB?

I agree about damage from snow wheelers Kaleb, I've noticed quite a bit the few times I've been out this year.
Personal locator beacon

[Jim]

One issue of note: In marginal cell coverage you might be able to get out a TEXT message where you can't get out VOICE calls. That's the big reason TEXT capable phones are specifically called out in the Rescue List. Matt (ZJ) helped a rolled ?pickup? at lefthand canyon a year or so back and said he could text but not voice call.

One communication out to a member in the connected world can then either post up in the forum or can make calls to Rescue List persons to get the ball rolling - with one text back to the in-need member that help's on the way.

The SPOT units are decent. Would there be any group interest to have one to pass around?

[Chris]

In marginal cell coverage you might be able to get out a TEXT message

I wasn't aware of that Jim, I figured a connection was a connection. Maybe my next phone will have text capability.

I mentioned previously that Barb & I got lost in the Dome Plateau area of Moab and didn't plan very well and left unprepared. Since then I have reinstalled my HAM radio which should be able to send/receive from just about anywhere just in case we screw up again. Lots of 4x4 folks are going to ham radios from what I've seen though all I ever hear when I turn it on is people talking about their radio, boring stuff!

[94ToyBear]

Only place ill go solo is left hand only cuz theres allways someone up there. And I know I can find ky way out pretty easy. Now days I don't go solo its not fun asking and depending on strangers to get you outa the hole I put my self in... main thing like everyone else said. Food, blankets, lots of socks, some form or hat(sombrero) jk. Metal shovle, and due to past camping trip gon wrong something to keep your drinking fluids from frezzing. And no matter what allways allways allways tell someone where you at that being said one of the best places to drop that line is here. I guarantee so.eone will be asking about you by the end of the night....... some good people in the site !

[4Runninfun]

I wheel alone all the time incl in the winter. I usually have a significant pack-out incl. shovels, come-a-long, winch, chain, clothes, food etc. And when wheeling alone it's all you. You are the only one to make the decision so you have to be prepared to stand by it. Sometimes our decision making skills are sharp and other times... well... hindsight makes things much clearer. :D I've had plenty of great solo runs but I've also managed to get myself stuck in a couple feet of snow and had some walking to do. It's just a risk you take if you decide to go it alone. As long as you accept that risk, plan as best you can for the unknown, and remember that you're most important tool for getting yourself unstuck is between your ears, you'll usually be alright. As for your situation it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. And the fact that you got yourself out shows that even when things got a little dicey, you were able to keep calm and get yourself out.

[94ToyBear]

I wheel alone all the time incl in the winter. I usually have a significant pack-out incl. shovels, come-a-long, winch, chain, clothes, food etc. And when wheeling alone it's all you. You are the only one to make the decision so you have to be prepared to stand by it. Sometimes our decision making skills are sharp and other times... well... hindsight makes things much clearer. :D I've had plenty of great solo runs but I've also managed to get myself stuck in a couple feet of snow and had some walking to do. It's just a risk you take if you decide to go it alone. As long as you accept that risk, plan as best you can for the unknown, and remember that you're most important tool for getting yourself unstuck is between your ears, you'll usually be alright. As for your situation it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. And the fact that you got yourself out shows that even when things got a little dicey, you were able to keep calm and get yourself out.

WELL PUT ! ALLMOST makes me want to go wheeling alone ! Haha

[Funrover]

I wheel alone all the time incl in the winter. I usually have a significant pack-out incl. shovels, come-a-long, winch, chain, clothes, food etc. And when wheeling alone it's all you. You are the only one to make the decision so you have to be prepared to stand by it. Sometimes our decision making skills are sharp and other times... well... hindsight makes things much clearer. :D I've had plenty of great solo runs but I've also managed to get myself stuck in a couple feet of snow and had some walking to do. It's just a risk you take if you decide to go it alone. As long as you accept that risk, plan as best you can for the unknown, and remember that you're most important tool for getting yourself unstuck is between your ears, you'll usually be alright. As for your situation it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. And the fact that you got yourself out shows that even when things got a little dicey, you were able to keep calm and get yourself out.

He knows what he's talking about. He has been on a fair # of solo snow runs. Always had great stories and fantastic pics!

[glacierpaul]

A high lift can get you out of a high centered situation, or buried in snow, lift and back up, lift and back up... usually works. I understand if you were off camber and such, but the highlift can be useful. Hell it could be used as a shovel too, albeit it a real pita. I do more solo runs than most, in about every condition too. What you did only gave you more experience :) A shovel is always in my vehicles, but I live in the mountains so being prepared is first order of biz for me, that and I usually have my kids with me. I know we have threads on just this, and most of them posted by Pete Brody. One thing I have learned about the lockers is, they can make things worse sometimes, making your ride go sideways instead of straight. X2 what Jon said! The best thing to do when running solo is make sure someone else knows where you were going and when you should be back.

[Backcountryislife]

The SPOT units are decent. Would there be any group interest to have one to pass around?

If anyone decides to do that I know a place that will work with you, (snowbigdeal.com) let me know if you want contact info, as you would want to talk to the owner.

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

I wasn't aware of that Jim, I figured a connection was a connection. Maybe my next phone will have text capability.

I mentioned previously that Barb & I got lost in the Dome Plateau area of Moab and didn't plan very well and left unprepared. Since then I have reinstalled my HAM radio which should be able to send/receive from just about anywhere just in case we screw up again. Lots of 4x4 folks are going to ham radios from what I've seen though all I ever hear when I turn it on is people talking about their radio, boring stuff!


All I know is that my texting is the last thing to go out on my phone (Sprint service) but that's not saying much. Once your calls start breaking up, there is only a remote chance of a text going through. And if you are in any kind of extended service area, forget it.

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

All I know is that my texting is the last thing to go out on my phone (Sprint service) but that's not saying much. Once your calls start breaking up, there is only a remote chance of a text going through. And if you are in any kind of extended service area, forget it.

Not sure why my response posted twice - sorry for cluttering up the conversation!

[Backcountryislife]

the advantage though is if you're only getting moments of service, it only takes about a second worth of connection for a text to go through, whereas that same connection could never make a phone call. I've got quite a few places near my house where I can text but can't call.

If the signal is gone though... it's gone! That's where the other things come in :D

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

One thing I have learned about the lockers is, they can make things worse sometimes, making your ride go sideways instead of straight.

[Don Ruby 14 CR]

Actually, I found that out the hard way about the lockers, but I used that to my advantage (luckily). The first time I got stuck the lockers slid me to the left past this small boulder that I did NOT want to hit (don't have my off-road bumper yet) and clear of the snow! The second time I got stuck, the lockers slid me to the right along the road (recall I was perpendicular to the road at this time) until I reached a spot where I could make it back up and onto the road. Prior to that it was all give it gas, slide sideways, back up, gas it again, until I made it back up. UGH!!! Don't even like thinking about it. I'm sure you can see all the damage I did if you go up to where this common 4x4 book says "snow lingers here" on the North/Middle Fork of the Swan River (Trail #71). Actually, snow lingers in one spot before that too, and the Forest Road mentioned is NOT #6, it's #62 - this caused me a bit of anxiety even BEFORE I got stuck the first time since I was not positive of where to go. Then BAM! Stuck...

[xaza]

Sorry to be backing things up so far but the general rule of thumb when on a snow run is 1) can you see the trail on the other side? 2) Can you make out the trail in between? 3) Can you keep your vehicle on the trail the entire way through? The key to opening trails is to open the trail not destroy the scenery on the side you go up to see. My brother, against my better judgement, runs solo a lot. He always let's me know where he is going and updates me if things change. I have found texts to be easier with spotty service than calling. Many of the numbers on the rescue list are cell phones and can get texts. If you get hold of one of us, even if we can't make it up we will post it to the forum and forward the message on. Typically cell signal is closer than home and would say never go alone without one. As far as deciding how far into the snow you want to go, good idea to make sure you have whatever recovery you will need first. AND long winded finish HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xaza]

oh and I just found this too, right at the top of my Pete list
http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?11833-Before-you-go-off-road#post230755