Choosing a new Welder

[Java]

I'm looking into upgrading my HF 90amp welder in the semi-near future and am limited by not having 220 in my garage. I have narrowed it down to these two:

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332691_200332691?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Welding-_-Wirefeed%20Welding-_-164611&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=164611&gclid=CO2QjLz5mbgCFe1AMgodrQYA1A


or this one


http://www.eastwood.com/mig-welder-110vac-135a-output.html?srccode=ga220010&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=zzproduct_ads&adtype=pla&kw=&matchtype=&network=g&creativeid=15752127687&placement=&producttargetid=40408681407&gclid=CO7UoOz4mbgCFYc7Mgod03cAzw


does anyone know of a better choice, or have experience with either of these? Thanks!!

[Brucker]

IMHO you pay for what you get. I wouldn't skimp on brand name electronics when it comes to any of my welders. Personally I would spend the extra for the blue (Miller) or the red one (Lincoln), or even a white one (Hobart). Everytime I have used a cheap 120V box it has sorely disappointed me. Whereas I can honestly say I have only had one Miller break down on me in the past 15 years. Again, this is just my opinion. Good luck with your opinions!

[Jim]

Everytime I have used a cheap 120V box it has sorely disappointed me.

This sentence has me scratching my head - the combination of "cheap 120V box"...

Are there 120V boxes that are good whereas some are not?
<or>
Are all 120V boxes insufficient to getting the job done and all are "cheap"?


I guess, Paul, could you give input as to what types of projects you're looking to complete? How thick of a joint/bead you will need.

My understanding of 120V vs. 220V units is the power they have available to perform a good weld at X depth of metal. I could see a good 120V unit well suited for projects up to X depth but for greater than X depth, a larger unit (220V) would be needed. I'd imagine there's a grey area where the two meet/overlap. How big of a grey area is there?

[Haku]

I agree very much, Its worth buying name brand stuff that is easy to service and easy to find parts for locally. You can find used ones both on Craigslist and at the local welding stores for much cheaper to get into a better machine.

First off, adding a 220v plug to the garage is super easy as long as you have two open slots in your circuit breaker. Depending on how far away your circuit breaker is from the garage, its less then $50 project and only takes an afternoon for a first timer (and probably less then an hour for an experienced electrician).

THis brings me to the next point, since most welders over 140-150 will need 220v. I know they can be quite a bit more spendy, but I personally would look into a 180 series welders or higher for offroad fab and general use. That will happily do 1/4" mild steel, whereas the 135/140 series stuff is limited to 3/16" according to the factory specs (but could probably do 1/4" in a pinch but it sucks to be at max settings all the time). I'm super happy with my Miller 211, which has the best of both worlds since it can use 120v or 220v with an easily swappable plug.

I think if I was looking at a new welder right now, I would have a hard time not considering the Hobart Trek 180. Its way above the pricing that you had in your links, but for an offroad vehicle owner it seems like a great welder since you can charge it up and bring it on a trail rescue. I've actually been considering selling/trading my Miller in to get one of those instead. Another cool aspect of the Trek 180 is that it uses 120v to charge, so you could have the 180 series welder and not have to change anything in the garage. The downside to that is that it will still draw the battery down while plugged in, so you would still be limited in how much you can weld at one time but they claim 80-100" of welding before it needs a charge, which in my experience is more then 99% of my welding projects need anyways.

http://store.cyberweld.com/hotr180migwe.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeSjuXhjMdw

Lastly, if you are dead set on a cheap off-brand welder, I would personally look at Everlast or Longevity. Both have very good reputations on Pirate and other websites, and they seem to maintain quality control despite being a Chinese made machine and both have a pretty decent warranty too.

[Haku]

This sentence has me scratching my head - the combination of "cheap 120V box"...

Are there 120V boxes that are good whereas some are not?
<or>
Are all 120V boxes insufficient to getting the job done and all are "cheap"?


I guess, Paul, could you give input as to what types of projects you're looking to complete? How thick of a joint/bead you will need.

My understanding of 120V vs. 220V units is the power they have available to perform a good weld at X depth of metal. I could see a good 120V unit well suited for projects up to X depth but for greater than X depth, a larger unit (220V) would be needed. I'd imagine there's a grey area where the two meet/overlap. How big of a grey area is there?

Miller, Lincoln, and Hobart all make 120v welders of varying amperage ratings. The 135 series that Paul mentioned is rated for up to 3/16" metal, though I've found they can usually do a bit thicker then that, especially with multiple passes (and Flux core wire can usually bump it up a 1/16" to 1/8" in capacity too). Cheap is relative too. Most reputable welders would probably NEVER recommend the $100 Harbor Freight welder to anyone due to its limited adjustability and major lack of power.

Its not true of all big welders, but the vast majority(like 99.9%) of them can be turned down to thinner metal, but once you reach the ceiling for your machine you are SOL. So its not really a grey area with the higher voltage machines as much as it completely overlaps what the lower voltage machines can do while being able to do much thicker material.

I would say that the 120v units are much more picky about the quality of the components then their higher voltage brothers. The higher quality the components the more efficient they will be at welding(more power to the metal for a given input voltage), and they will be less prone to overheating and have a higher duty cycle (how long you can weld vs. how long it needs to rest). The 220v ones can be less efficient and still get away with a lot and not have to worry about it as much. For this reason, its worth getting a unit that has quality parts and a good warranty, plus good local support if something breaks or goes wrong with it.

[Cr33p3r]

Paul one thing I have not seen mentioned yet is % duty cycle that is one big factor to look at also. If you are just doing quick short welds a lower % is fine most times but if youare doing heavier longer welds you want a higher % duty cycle. If I was in the market for a new welder I would look at the dual voltage higher amp welders just in case you ever do get the 220v installed you would be ahead of the game.

I have had my Century welder since 1990 and very few problems aside from not going high enough on the overall amperage and I have used it on everything from 20ga to 1/2" of course the 1/2" was multiple passes. I prefer using gas over flux just easier all the way around with welds, grinding and better penetraion. Just my:2c:

[Brucker]

Lastly, if you are dead set on a cheap off-brand welder, I would personally look at Everlast or Longevity. Both have very good reputations on Pirate and other websites, and they seem to maintain quality control despite being a Chinese made machine and both have a pretty decent warranty too.

Stay away from Longevity. 4 different units in less than a year. They pay for parts but not shipping, either way. They will not ship more than a few different parts, and usually require you send it back to them in CA. Their customer service is crap. Their head guy (Simon) total me, and I quote, "If you wanted it to work like a Miller, you should have bought a Miller".

This was all documented on Pirate, and the Pirate staff took it all down at the request of Longevity. After 3 months of down time, I finally got a machine that worked. At least it works for know. I have thought about selling it while it is still working, but I can't bring myself to dump it on someone else.

And so their is no confusion, the Longevity unit I own does work well when it actually works. Just not for long....

[Haku]

Bummer about your experience with them. I guess not everything that you read online is true huh? I guess that just shows what having a nice reliable local supplier for your welding stuff does for you. Oh, and for what its worth, I think General Air and others will price match with the larger online retailers too.

[Brucker]

This sentence has me scratching my head - the combination of "cheap 120V box"...

Are there 120V boxes that are good whereas some are not?
<or>
Are all 120V boxes insufficient to getting the job done and all are "cheap"?


I guess, Paul, could you give input as to what types of projects you're looking to complete? How thick of a joint/bead you will need.

My understanding of 120V vs. 220V units is the power they have available to perform a good weld at X depth of metal. I could see a good 120V unit well suited for projects up to X depth but for greater than X depth, a larger unit (220V) would be needed. I'd imagine there's a grey area where the two meet/overlap. How big of a grey area is there?


Sorry for the confusion. Every cheap, Chinese 120V unit I have used or been around was deficient in some manner. I have used brand name 120v boxes with great success. I actually just sold my old Lincoln SP135 that I had for years to my BIL. I found that I just never used it anymore. Both my big Miller MIG units (MM210 and a MM251) easily handle thin through thick, with at most some wire/liner/tip changes.

Josh hit the nail on the head. Brand name 220V is the way to go if you can swing it. If pricing is an issue, go with a decent used brand name welder over the cheap ones. Yes, even if you still end up going with a 120v unit. The quality just isn't there on the Chinese stuff.

[Brucker]

Bummer about your experience with them. I guess not everything that you read online is true huh? I guess that just shows what having a nice reliable local supplier for your welding stuff does for you. Oh, and for what its worth, I think General Air and others will price match with the larger online retailers too.

I have a good buddy who works at Air Gas as a tech. See this guy fix all sorts of things on various welders. But even he wasn't able to help with mine as the only replacement parts available are through Longevity. If you feel like reading more, check out my company Facebook page. I documented the last saga with them on there a couple months ago.

And FYI- Mine isn't one of the "cheap" units from them either. I have the Weld-all 256pi. That's the full 250amp AC/DC TIG, high amp plasma cutter with CNC port, and a high amp stick welder. I figure I have more money into my working setup now than a new, comparable Miller. Needless to say I am a little bitter...

[glacierpaul]

Thanks for all this info guy's!! I too am going to get a welder at some point soon, it is amazing I don't already have one. I give a fair amount of $$ to my local welder, which I don't mind, but when my plows break it is a major PITA to get it down to Idaho Springs, and the loss of time for me.
So thanks guy's!!

[Java]

Thanks for all the responses, really good info there. I'm a total newb to welding, I've only done one project and a few repairs so far, but I like my HF90amp welder, it's fun and easy and so far has worked great. Ofcourse I don't have enough experieince not to like it!! For fixing a fence or simeple repairs like that I'm happy with what I have, but I'm building an offroad trailer for my current project and want to be sure the welds will be stronger and maybe a little prettier than what the HF can do. The beads I made learning to weld at Club Workshop on a Miller 220 look better than everything I've done since, and I'm a better welder now- it's the tool. I can't upgrade the garage power anytime soon, rewiring and sheetrock are on the docket for it down the road and I'll do it then, but not now. I also don't want to spend a lot of money on equipment that I'm not going to get the use out of, hence the NT and Eastwood choices. which I'm not set on at all, but I do like the price. I googled the Hobart trek, very awesome, but $1200.00 is way beyond what I want to spend. I guess I'll keep an eye on CL...

[glacierpaul]

I have spent way over $1200 in the past couple years in welding fixes and fab. But $1200 all at once yeah I understand that!

[Hypoid]

I can't upgrade the garage power anytime soon, rewiring and sheetrock are on the docket for it down the road and I'll do it then, but not now. How far is it to the dryer outlet? Even with a dedicated outlet, a 220V extension cord is good to have.

To reinforce what others have said: duty cycle, duty cycle, duty cycle! I have watched good machines lose their arc stability, after some time in use, or after cranking up the heat. Buy all the "head-room" that you can afford.

[Jim]

I've actually been considering selling/trading my Miller in to get one of those instead.

As for buying name-brand, used: the above quoted text is sitting out there... Might be worth you two at least talking a bit.

[Haku]

As for buying name-brand, used: the above quoted text is sitting out there... Might be worth you two at least talking a bit.

We'll see...I'm definitely not ready to get rid of her yet. The 211 is honestly the perfect daily driver machine for me and I was planning on keeping it for a long time. It is a bit low on duty cycle side at only 30%, but I honestly have never had a problem once I started using 220v since I usually only use it at 3/4 capacity or less. It would be great to have a 250 series (maybe Lincoln, but more likely the Miller 252 since I'm more of a blue guy then a red guy), but they jump over a $1000 in price between the Miller 211 and the 252 and I haven't had to weld 1/2" steel yet.

The only reason I have thought about trading to the Hobart Trek 180 is because I am a member at the Club Workshop and they have a nice powerful Snap On welder there (the miller they have there is a TIG welder, the Synchrowave 200) that I have been using for most of my projects since its easier to just turn that on rather then pull my 211 out of the storage unit/work space next door and having that Hobart would be great for trail rescues.

Here are a few really good deals...

Lincoln 180C that comes with a gas bottle, cart and what looks like a 50 foot extension cord... http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3916659433.html

Hobart Handler 187 that comes with a tank and 20 foot extension cord and a Mask... http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3911549916.html

Hobart Handler 140 (110v) that comes with a tank... http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3905828910.html

Miller 130xp... Decent welder if a bit dirty...comes with some grinding supplies too it seems... http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3916507644.html

Lincoln Weldpak 180hd brand new in the box... http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/3912918560.html

Lincoln Weldpak 140hd that looks to be in good shape... http://denver.craigslist.org/tld/3847432369.html

I like the first two since they come with another relatively expensive item, the tank. Honestly, that first link is a steal since it has the tank and cart and the second one is worth looking at for the same reason.

When it comes to 220v, an extension cord is your friend if you don't want to wire the garage now. At my last place I dropped a 220v plug out of the bottom of the circuit breaker and then made a 100 foot 10 gauge extension cord to run out to the garage. Technically you are supposed to use 8 gauge cable for the current draw my welder is capable of, but so far it has worked fine and 8 gauge SO cable is both expensive and harder to find. I haven't felt it get hot or anything, so it seems to be handling the load I put it through just fine. Welders generally use the same plug as a 220v dryer, which is pretty common in most households and as long as the wife/housemates are cool with it its easy to just run it out to the garage.

[Java]

thanks, I'm not going to waste anyone's time with anything except posting for advice until I have cash in hand and am ready to commit. I have the dryer outlet in my basement, but my garage is getting sheetrock, a big new window, cabinets and the electric wire fromt he house to the garage is getting buried and a whole new box inside with (most likely) 220 next year, so I'm not even buying an extention cord in the interum. plans... we'll see what really happens...

[Cr33p3r]

Paul when they rewire the garage the new panel should be wired directly off the main buses in the box at the house so for you to get 220 will just be a matter of putting in 2 breakers 50 amp preferably it won't cost much more or have them qoute it before they start so you are already expecting it when the time comes.