Communication

[gambrinus]

Everyone knows communication is important on the trail, both vehicle to vehicle, and also from your group back to "Civilization" in case things go wrong. Other than the old stand-by CB , how many folks are using FRS or Ham ?? I just had an experience where I not only could see the other vehicle, but could probably have hit him with a rock, but couldn't seem to make contact with the CB. THe FRS however had him so clear it was like a phone call..

Handy chart...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hflink.com/hfpack/radiorange/AVERAGE_RADIO_RANGE_PEDESTRIAN_VEHICLE.jpg&imgrefurl=http://hflink.com/hfpack/radiorange/index.html&h=480&w=640&sz=152&tbnid=kRfv3jT6ohDpIM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__7GzC5z04XjfKRLpN3fhPrSIMyzs=&docid=cMjeH1uiscBFtM&sa=X&ei=YJsjUvyTMcTlygHtsoCAAQ&ved=0CEQQ9QEwAg&dur=613

[xaza]

If you can see the vehicle with line of site but not able to communicate there was something wrong with one of the 2 CB's. I lived in SE Nebraska and on a clear day could reach CO with my old CB.

[gambrinus]

The "rest of the story".... The other vehicle had a mounted CB with whip, also a hand held FRS. We had a hand held CB, decent name brand unit.. as well as a hand held FRS. What we discovered was that the hand held CB was WORTHLESS inside the vehicle. Stop and step out of the vehicle, and it was fine. The FRS was fine no matter what... I'll probably be mounting a small ham unit with my CB. I generally have a set of FRS with me just to keep track of my kids...

[xaza]

Ahhh yes, handheld CB units don't like being wrapped in metal. I believe some of them have the option of plugging in alternate antenna that can help with that. We used to use some 2 way radios (one cheapy pair and a set of Midland)but the batteries would go dead quickly and the range was terrible unless you could see the other vehicle. That was why we went to mounted CB radios in our wheelers. Been very happy ever since and never end up forgetting to charge batteries before heading out. IMHO a decent CB with a good antenna is the way to go. Was around $120 for mine ($60 CB, $60 no ground plane antenna) One thing is for sure though, either is better than trying to get a cell signal. Communication is very important when in a large group

[Backcountryislife]

I don't have CB, honestly have yet to really feel it was "needed" but it sure is kinda nice I guess when I've borrowed a handheld.

For reaching reality though, I'm a tad more anal about what I have with me. I've got a Delorme inreach that can send a number of messages to people, FB, or S&R without anything else, or can send any message to anyone with the phone paired to it. I have a galaxy that has two spare batteries that exists just for use with the inreach (phone doens't work, but the bluetooth still does, so I kept it), so I'm set for power to send whatever I need. I've got the FR rescue list on paper & in my phone, so I'm good to go :D I tend to be the guy going to rescue others, but some day it'll be me, I'm sure!

[xaza]

Thanks for mentioning the list Kaleb, we have a lot of new people here that may not have even seen the list. Please feel free to send information to Jim if you would be able to be on the list.
http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?18063-Front-Range-4x4-Rescue-Help-List

[Chris]

I have both a CB and Ham in my truck as well as a pair of "walkie-talkies" for when we're roaming around on foot. Surprising to me was how well they also work for truck-to-truck when close together. I have had the Yaesu in and out of my truck and it's back in after Barb and I kind of got lost in Dome Plateau last Spring. I decided it's better to have it "just in case" things go really bad.

[sunk]

I do not run a CB but have one sitting on the bench. I am spoiled, I work with 2 way radios and have a really nice set of Motorola XTS 5000 portable radios that are programmed to a friends UHF FCC licensed freqs. This does not help when traveling in a large group of wheelers but is amazing with 1 other rig. The FRS radios available are really dependent on the quality of radio you purchase. They are all UHF radios and usually about 1-3 watts output. They are good for line of site, but performance really suffers in the hills.

I have found that most CB radios that wheelers have installed in their rigs are not properly installed and causes big problems when it comes to performance. All aspects of the installation will affect the performance of the radio. (power connections [B+ and GND], Quality of antenna, Antenna tuning [VSWR], antenna mounting, coaxial termination, and of course operator error). A properly installed and tuned CB radio will out perform a UHF handheld radio in the hills.

If anyone needs help with their CB radio, shoot me a PM. I can usually fix most of the problems I have listed (unless your CB is fried).

[ExplorerTom]

I need to get my CD tuned. I plopped it in and haven't done squat.

I have a friend who took his to the CB shop on Sheridan and got his "tuned up". I've been parked next to him, both on the same channel, and he was picking up other rigs while my radio was silent.

[zukrider]

i have a few cb parts, but have yet to honestly want one! i did pick up a nice set of 2way walkies though. when we wer with Tom, Luke & Katie, and the other jeep for the Mt. Bross trip, there were 4 walkies available, and it was awesome to be able to communicate amongst each other. that was thee sole reason for my walkies. now i have some and can offer one up on group runs.

with as many "issues" as i hear about with CB's, i just have not cared to deal with them.

[ExplorerTom]

3 things sealed the deal on a CB for me:
1- don't have to remember to pack it
2- don't have to have fresh batteries
3- can't drop it in the water at Coney Flats

[zukrider]

hahahhahhahahahahaaaa. thats funny. yeah, i see the benefits for sure. but, the charger base is currently riding in the center console, plugged in. and it will soon get a more semi-permanent mount location in the rear, on a shelf i plan to build.

but, i have some of the parts to CB, so i will probably set one up.

[SCRubicon]

I have a friend who took his to the CB shop on Sheridan and got his "tuned up". I've been parked next to him, both on the same channel, and he was picking up other rigs while my radio was silent.

Radio Service Center? They peaked and tweaked my CB. A couple years ago there was a run to Wheeler Lake then Twin Cone. I met the group on top of Twin Cone. I hit one of the guys in the group (Randy) as they were convoying up 285 a little west of Jefferson - like he was sitting right next to me.

[xaza]

Yeah that old guy at Radio service center knows his stuff. I have an SWR meter and can help with tuning a CB, I don't think I am as good as him, but I will do it for free.

[rudycon]

I run CB and ham.

CB because everyone has a CB. Ham because it works better almost all of the time. Give me a choice and I'll pick ham for trail coms every time.

Any radio with the antenna inside the cab isn't going to "get out" worth a darn compared to a roof mounted antenna. an "s9" signal from the roof antenna will be about an "s3" signal strength with an antenna inside the cab.




Why do I like vhf/uhf ham radio for trail communications better than CB radio?

FM audio quality on the mobile vhf/uhf ham radio vs. AM radio quality or single sideband audio on the CB.

Ability to use repeaters for more far more coverage and even to hop off onto the public telephone network to contact emergency services (or order a pizza.)

Shorter antennas require fewer compromises than the 11meter CB antennas when mounting them on my rig. Fewer compromises means better performance.

50watts on my 2 meter ham radio vs. 4 watts on the CB means better coms in marginal signal situations.


I have an antenna anayzler which makes tuning a CB (or ham up to 150mhz) antenna a breeze. I'm happy to share my tools/experience with anyone interested in improved trail coms.

[The StRanger]

I need to get my CD tuned. I plopped it in and haven't done squat.

Same here, We my Granddaughter get figgit fingers she plays with it
Sometime I can get it to work, Sometimes not !!!

[carpenle]

I have been playing with my CB, it is getting better, but still needs work.

[Max]

Hey, if everyone gets HAM radios I'll get one, until then, a CB works on the trail just fine.

[dr350jja]

Hey, if everyone gets HAM radios I'll get one,

Not sure how well that's gonna go over, seems like we tried this before.

[The StRanger]

I dont ever turn mine on in the city.. Way too much Bullstuff !!
Trail only, If it works within a mile, Im good !!

[4jdubbs]

What is the name of the old guy at Radio Service Center - I need mine tuned bad.

[xaza]

Don't remember his name but he is the only one I have ever seen working there.

[rudycon]

Pretty sure that would be "Steve."

[Bob]

I run CB and ham.

CB because everyone has a CB. Ham because it works better almost all of the time. Give me a choice and I'll pick ham for trail coms every time.



I also have both CB and Ham VHF/UHF. Rudycon touched on the main limitations of CB: low power and low antenna efficiency. The low power is due to FCC regulations, and the antenna ills are due to the frequency that CB operates at, 27 MHz.

The typical mobile 3 or 4 foot antenna is short for the wavelength, which makes its efficiency low, along with the "ground" of the vehicle which is not really a good ground at the frequency. The effect of this poor ground also causes the antenna to radiate most of the signal power in a pattern well above the horizon, exactly what we don't want when trying to communicate locally using a direct radio wave from the transmitter to the receiver. So we only get a small fraction of the 4 watts directed toward the intended receiver.

The radiated power pattern also means that the antenna launches a strong wave skyward, which at 27 MHz can be bent by the ionosphere to come back down to earth hundreds of miles away ("skip" in CB terms). This produces interference that can be loud enough to drown out local signals when ionospheric conditions are favorable.

VHF/UHF usually work much better for mobile situations because the ideal antenna length is small enough to be practical, and vehicle "ground" is much more ideal at these frequencies, so the efficiency is far higher, and the pattern improves so much more of the power is radiated near the horizon. At VHF/UHF radio waves escape the ionosphere into space so there is no "skip" interference from the skywaves.

I'm not knocking CB here, its fairly cheap, easy to use, nearly universal, and doesn't need a license. Just trying to help explain why it doesn't always work the way we would want it to.

[WW2AVG]

Ok, I have to jump in here!

I have had two Jeeps now. I was told that Front Range 4x4 uses CB ch4 to communicate. So, I bought myself a cheap CB. It is VERY handy to be able to talk to each other on the trail. I can see that CB is easy, relatively inexpensive and works fine on the trail, so it is a nice thing to have.

With that said, I have mixed feelings on using CB. Several folks have commented on the pros and cons of CB vs ham, but here's my 2 cents worth:

CB is not really the wise decision for short range line of sight communications. It operates at roughly 27 Mhz which is termed High Frequency (HF). HF is noted for long range communications since it will bounce off the ionoshpere. Also, relatively long antennas based on frequency. (the longer the antennas the more trees they catch!) For wheelin', we are typically only interested in very short, line-of-sight, communications. a ham (who can choose from a wide range of frequencies to operate on) would not pick an HF band to talk to a vehicle within a mile or so from their location! CB is inexpensive and there are VERY few rules. Now the CB (HF) radios will certainly operate line-of-sight (basic radio principle), their relatively low frequency will bounce off the ionosphere if the conditions are right (commonly called skip). FCC rules limit CB power to 4 Watts. Now for trail use that should be fine! I am here to tell you that 4W is plenty of power to talk to another vehicle a mile or so up the trail! I have used a 5W walkie-talkie (HT in ham terms) from Kwajalein (a small island in the central Pacific) to a satellite to Japan while siting on a sandy beach, so power is not the whole answer.

Now with that said, I believe that ham offers a lot more to the off-road enthusiast. Spefically, the VHf (144 Mhz) and UHF (440 Mhz) band are much better suited for off-road use! For starters, they are line-of-sight. They are ideal for point-to-point communications. Ideally, the antennas are shorter than a CB antenna, but I have to admit that I just bought a 5/8 wave antenna for my 2M ham radio that is basically the same length as my CB antenna (about 4'). However, with a proper ground plane you should be able to use a much shorter antenna. Now with ham, the legal limit for power is 1500 Watts. While that is the extreme, finding a small mobile radio (roughly the size of a typical CB radio) that will put out 50W - 75W is common! I just bought a Yeasu FT-1900R which puts out 55W. There are several power levels that can be used. If talking to the vehicle ahead of you, 5W is fine. If you are having an emergency, you can bump it up to 55W to improve the odds of you being heard! With ham radio, there are many repeaters on VHF/UHF frequencies (amongst others). In Colorado, these are generally located on mount tops when possible. If you have line-of-sight to one of these repeaters, then the odds of getting help in an emergency are good! Hams will typically monitor these repeaters. Also, some of the repeaters have an "autopatch" feature where you can punch in a DTMF code and get access to a phone line. Another option in an emergency.

Ham does require a license. There is no morse code requirement for the entry level license which would give you VHF/UHF privileges. It is not terribly tricky to pass the test. There are sample quizzes on-line (free) and great study guides are readily available. As far as operating once you get a license, you'll find that as long as you don't swear, don't run a business and send your callsign every 10 minutes during a conversation or at the end of a conversation, you are fine. That's a bit of a summary, but it is not as tricky as some might believe.

Anyway, as a "amateur extra", I installed a CB since that is what everyone has. I recently installed the Yeasu FT-1900R to increase the chances of getting help in the case of an emergency. My feeling is that neither CB nor cell phone (nor ham for that matter) can be relied up in while out in the remote areas that we are often wheelin' in! Ham doesn't guarantee that I will get help, but I feel that if I am out in the woods, I have a better chance of getting help with ham radio than I do with CB or cell! From a technical standpoint, using VHF of UHF is wiser. However, I can see why CB has its' appeal to most for day-to-day chit-chat between vehicles. In an ideal world, we'd go to UHF or VHF ham radios!!! For now, I'll keep the CB to keep in touch with my buddies on the trail, but if I need help out in the middle of nowhere, I will be turning the ham radio first!

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth!