02/15/15 thanks everybody [Archive] - Front Range 4x4 Forums

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 01:01 PM

From what I gathered last night, they were stuck on the blue part, 709.1

Why would they go up there?

I would really like to know what happened up there but it's hard to tell what happened from every bodies post. I'll give my perspective hopefully somebody could fill in the blanks for me.

We left the cemetery with 7 rigs I thought, 2 FJC's, a Ram, 2 80's, a 5th gen 4Runner, and our 85 4Runner. Everybody decided Ige would lead. She was first, then the red 80, then us, the Ram was behind me and the white 4runner was last and the only one I could hear on CB. Communication became a problem immediately for us because Ige only had Ham and then we lost her altogether. We heard that the FJC's were having a lot of trouble so the rear was falling behind also the red 80 told us Ige was lost. We decided to just go to Yankee Hill, we figured she was just making good time and we would find her there.

We we almost made it to Yankee Hill until we got stuck in a large drift up a hill. There was a fullsize blazer and an XJ up there that had just winched out of the same drift and it appeared to all of us that this was as far as anybody would make it, that is where our red track ends. We turned around to find out where everybody was since Ige wasn't up there. Immediately we met the red 80 heading for the drift we just winched out of. We told him he wouldn't make it and we had to winch out. He didn't think it would stop him, he said "I'm cheating, I have lockers, I'll be fine." Then we came to Ige and the rest of the group where an FJC got stuck again, and Ige too, I think.

Everybody got got out and started chatting, we unstck the FJC, and everybody kept chatting. It was snowing pretty good now too. I told everybody where the red 80 was and tried to see what the plan was because it seemed we should be heading out. Nobody really made a plan how we were all going to get out except it seemed like all wanted to teach the red 80 a lesson by making him wait. Standing around doing nothing but chatting seemed like a horrible idea so I told the FJC's we we heading out and they should go with us because they had no business going up to that drift. Everybody just stayed there with no sense of urgency. I decided to lead myself out, I had 2 kids with me.

I had a very hard time finding the trail because the snow was covering all the tracks. We used GPS to find our way out through Nevadaville instead of the way we came in. I don't think we would have found our way out without GPS so...

Did you guys get lost or break or what was the problem?

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 01:11 PM

Chris broke and Ryan got stuck trying to pull him as Chris now only has 2 wheel drive, Now that one was stuck and one broke=stranded.

Brandtrbs

February 16th, 2015, 02:11 PM

We got stuck, my land tank could have gotten down(maybe) but trying to get the runner out made it basically impossible. Lifes to short not to do dumb stuff and not learn from it.

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 02:16 PM

Lifes to short not to do dumb **** and not learn from it. it gives good stories for the later days:lmao:

Brandtrbs

February 16th, 2015, 02:21 PM

exactly

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 02:22 PM

So Jim...does that count for a 2015 badge??? :D

Jim

February 16th, 2015, 02:25 PM

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 02:26 PM

We got stuck, my land tank could have gotten down(maybe) but trying to get the runner out made it basically impossible. Lifes to short not to do dumb stuff and not learn from it.

For sure, adventure is the purpose, dumb stuff is the best way to find it. Where did Chris break? And did you guys go up Cumberland on purpose?

Jim

February 16th, 2015, 02:27 PM

So Jim...does that count for a 2015 badge???

It most certainly does! (It's even been discussed / documented - now where's that scrap of paper...)

EDIT: Now I'm waiting for the run report (when people wake up enough to post) for the rest of the group's 2015 processing...

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 02:29 PM

It most certainly does! (It's even been discussed / documented - now where's that scrap of paper...) :lmao:

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 02:40 PM

OOF - from reading Mike's post, if I'm reading it correctly, I see two items that would be good to comment on:

1) The end of the group was "lost". Perhaps it should be reinforced - everyone is responsible for the person behind them. If you lose sight of the person behind - stop, wait a minute, then turn back to find them. This keeps the whole group together (so help is at hand - a FUNDAMENTAL of why we are a group in the first place - to have a wheeling buddy / help right at hand).

2) We used GPS to find our way out through Nevadaville instead of the way we came in. I don't think we would have found our way out without GPS so

Again, going alone - dangerous (and with kids to protect...). Should the truck have gotten stuck or the GPS flake out / become inoperative. Granted, there are times where heading out alone might be the best course, but arm-chairing this from the write-up - I second guess the decision (not pointing any finger - just bringing up the issue of safety from a warm office keyboard).

0.02

Good to hear nothing terrible happened to anyone, though it was a long night for several.

Yes, theses are the concerns I had and was surprised nobody had the same sense as you are using in your comments.

How did Ige lose the lead if she was watching for Ryan?

There was a lack of communication, leadership, and decision making. I knew where I was, I knew where I was going, if I would have waited for the chit chat to end and a plan made, my kids and I might have been there till 3am. I'm glad we left, I would have brought everyone out with me then if I were in charge, just my .02

I wish I could have been more help, sorry.

oh, is that 4Runner really a hybrid?

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 02:50 PM

if I would have waited for the chit chat to end and a plan made, my kids and I might have been there till 3am. I'm glad we left with kids it changes everything imo. I know exactly what you mean...

Jim

February 16th, 2015, 02:56 PM

oh, is that 4Runner really a hybrid?

Why yes, yes it is. Chris will bend your ear on the conversion!

You never know until you ask...

Jackie

February 16th, 2015, 03:23 PM

I'm glad we left, I would have brought everyone out with me then if I were in charge, just my .02

I wish I could have been more help, sorry.

IMO - you're the ONLY one in CHARGE of you and your passengers. Otherwise the group usually just lines up to follow the leader (and that can change)! Volunteers are often asked for. If you fail to watch the person behind you, you break the chain. Then sh!t happens.

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 03:42 PM

IMO - you're the ONLY one in CHARGE of you and your passengers. Otherwise the group usually just lines up to follow the leader (and that can change)! Volunteers are often asked for. If you fail to watch the person behind you, you break the chain. Then sh!t happens.

Agreed.

This is is what my wife reminded me too while we waited for the small talk to subside. She said, "You are the leader of this truck and it is time to go."

If one decides to play "follow the leader" then they have lead their vehicle and passengers to whatever happens thereafter.

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 04:01 PM

"You are the leader of this truck and it is time to go." I agree.I have had to leave early on several occasions.. I believe you did nothing wrong and it was a situation that just happens with this hobby. I do believe you leave no one behind which you didnt imo.

Max

February 16th, 2015, 04:01 PM

"people got left behind"

Didn't I just post about this?

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?22739-Hackett-Gulch-Run-2-7-2015&p=281092#post281092

dieseldoc

February 16th, 2015, 04:23 PM

Wow we heard a vroup was still out.
Glad every one made it back.

Jackie

February 16th, 2015, 04:32 PM

Agreed.

This is is what my wife reminded me too while we waited for the small talk to subside. She said, "You are the leader of this truck and it is time to go."

If one decides to play "follow the leader" then they have lead their vehicle and passengers to whatever happens thereafter.

I agree with you. You had a family to worry about and made your own decision to leave on your own. My message about "watching the person behind you" was meant more for the new people here that don't know...

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 04:44 PM

I agree with you. You had a family to worry about and made your own decision to leave on your own. My message about "watching the person behind you" was meant more for the new people here that don't know...

Oh, I understood you. I assumed you meant to address the people who weren't watching out for the rig behind them because that is how I lost the 2 leaders, waiting for the Ram behind me to come back into sight, that is. I know Ige is very expierenced, so I don't know how that happened that she got lost. I don't think it is good for a vehicle in the lead to have no radio communication with the group. It would seem to be common sense to have radios in the first and last vehicles, everybody else tracking the guy behind them, that didn't happen and it appeared it was going to be a problem right away.

Chris

February 16th, 2015, 04:49 PM

I just got my 4Runner home a bit ago. No issues with the 2wd drive home or down the hill last night. Doing 360's going downhill on ice was interesting but everybody handled it like pros.

As to the run in general there were a bunch of things that were done wrong which can be blamed on lack of trail experience and a lack of understanding of acceptable protocol as was mentioned above. If, and it's a very big if, everyone watched for the truck behind them everything would have been totally different. As the tailgunner I was last to get up and found Ige and Dustin below us, Ige made a wrong turn and lost everyone and Dustin showed up late. When we got up to where most people were I found out Ryan was up ahead somewhere.

We turned around to find out where everybody was since Ige wasn't up there. Immediately we met the red 80 heading for the drift we just winched out of. We told him he wouldn't make it and we had to winch out. He didn't think it would stop him, he said "I'm cheating, I have lockers, I'll be fine."

My question is why, after winching yourselves out, did you leave Ryan to get stuck. Sure he overestimated his trucks ability but that's how we learn what our trucks are capable of. Again, watching for the truck behind you wasn't done. Mike said he was going ahead to find him (thanks Mike!) and I went with him. We hit a bad spot and I winched Mike out a couple times. The Jeep group came through and we asked them to watch for Ryan who we assumed was stuck. The were great and said they would. I got impatient and decided to try the spot that gave Mike trouble and made it through. A short distance up I found the Jeeps who had freed Ryan and we drove back together.

The trouble spot grabbed Ryan and it seems as though powering through is where I broke. I ended up in front of Ryan who needed a winch but I couldn't turn around as I was now 2WD. Again, the Jeeps rescued us (first time I had been involved with 2 snatch block recovery) We planned to pull my front driveshaft but couldn't get the bolts loose and decided to head down to the rest of our group. The remaining trucks apparently decided to leave without knowing where we were. Again, if we all adhered to the keep the truck behind you in sight it wouldn't have been the shitfest it became. It was now getting dark and we were stuck again with Mike in the lead. Mike was adamant that we get down while we could and we got cozy with 4 of us and a dog in his pickup and he took us down while hearing from people that were responding to the 911 plea.

From that point we were waiting in Mike's truck for Rick to take me to meet Cliff and Wylie and recover the trucks. Mike gave Ryan a ride home (More thanks to Mike.) Wylie left his truck at the cemetery so he could drive Ryan's truck down. The drive up took an hour or so and not particularly hard with the experience of the rescue team. An easy tug got us all free and down the hill where I left my truck in a casino parking lot and drove Ryan's truck home.

That brings me back to my first line of this post and should fill in any blanks.

Again, as has already been said communication was poor, intentions not shared and people were left behind. I agree with the need to give special consideration when kids are involved but it was discouraging to find three of us alone and not knowing everyone left.

I'm not criticizing anyone and my intent is to remind everyone of how we watch out for each other and never leave anyone behind. I think a number of lessons have been learned and it's my hope that our next run is not quite so dramatic and that everyone sticks together.

Yep, just my :2c:

Chris

February 16th, 2015, 04:59 PM

She said, "You are the leader of this truck and it is time to go."

Always! It may have been understood by most people but I didn't have a clue anyone was leaving.

Chris

February 16th, 2015, 05:01 PM

Let me add one more comment. A big thanks to Mike, Rick, Cliff and Wylie!

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 05:05 PM

A big thanks to Mike, Rick, Cliff and Wylie!Not a problem.....actually enjoyed it....did play hookie today though

xaza

February 16th, 2015, 05:27 PM

I have been seeing quite a few more issues lately regarding trail etiquette. I don't wish to point fingers in any given instance, but think that it is evident we are not teaching these basics to newer members. I will find a few links later and post up a thread. When a trail run starts to drag out due to issues it is quite understandable that some are going to need to head out early. I have kept my family out doing rescues until it was time to go to work before but that is not always an option. When you have a large group such as was the case in this run, it should be feasible to find another rig to team up with and head out together. It is important that the entire rest of the group knows who split off and which way they are heading out, it helps reduce search area if they turn up missing. Often times when there are issues, more trucks just makes things more difficult and it is beneficial to trim down the number of rigs to the ones that are essential to recovery. I ended up skipping dinner last night to head up to a trail where several rigs already were to make a very easy recovery. Ended up getting home in time for a 2 hour nap before going to work on a roof all day. I do this gladly and will do it again but prefer it to not be because the group got separated and lost. Glad to hear you got your truck home today Chris. Lastly I want to point out that we all make mistakes and learning from them is what makes us better. I made a poor decision last night on the way out trying to save 5-10 minutes and took us down too steep of a hill for the conditions and it ended up being a scary ride for a few. My apologies.

Rick

February 16th, 2015, 06:16 PM

it ended up being a scary ride for a few. My apologies.:eek::steer:

Jackie

February 16th, 2015, 06:29 PM

Yes! We should "teach" better than we do.

I might have been one of the closer drivers in the area with a winch that might have been able to help, but I was home alone with a child. I chose to stay home and man the phone and forum to help get word out. You have to make your own decision. I chose to not make matters worse for those that ventured out. I could have gotten in trouble too...

I'm so glad everyone (including the trucks) got out.

If everyone followed the basic rule of watching the guy behind you, things could be easier. (And safer for everyone involved).

Patrolman

February 16th, 2015, 07:17 PM

I might have been one of the closer drivers in the area with a winch that might have been able to help, but I was home alone with a child. I chose to stay home and man the phone and forum to help get word out. You have to make your own decision. I chose to not make matters worse for those that ventured out. I could have gotten in trouble too...

I was in the same boat Jackie. There was no way that I could justify taking my daughter out, even though I am almost as close as you. You have to pick your priorities. Glad that everyone got home fine.

Chris

February 16th, 2015, 08:45 PM

I think it's safe to say none of us would want anyone to risk their kids.

mikeyhcrana

February 16th, 2015, 08:54 PM

My question is why, after winching yourselves out, did you leave Ryan to get stuck. Sure he overestimated his trucks ability but that's how we learn what our trucks are capable of. Again, watching for the truck behind you wasn't done. Mike said he was going ahead to find him (thanks Mike!) and I went with him. We hit a bad spot and I winched Mike out a couple times. The Jeep group came through and we asked them to watch for Ryan who we assumed was stuck. The were great and said they would. I got impatient and decided to try the spot that gave Mike trouble and made it through. A short distance up I found the Jeeps who had freed Ryan and we drove back together.

That is a good question. We didn't "leave" Ryan to get stuck though.

When we got up there, and got stuck, the big XJ was on top and it had itself turned around already. The XJ got stuck again going back down. After we winched out, we did not get stuck going down but, we were well on our way down when we came to Ryan. He told us Ige was right behind him along with everybody. I wanted to believe him but, the fact is, I couldnt believe him because we could not see Ige, neither could he, she never came the whole time we talked. I knew that he couldn't go far and, that is where he was. We were not going back up there at that point I was trying to find Ige and the rest of the group to tell you where he was and what the situation was. It seemed important to reassemble the group to me. I had also found the 2 FJC's abandoned, going down a whole seperate trail by themselves. They followed me back down, we met you there, an FJC got stuck, Ige was also stuck but pointing in still, not out.

Every body got out and started telling stories and stuff, which is nice. I informed everybody about Ryan. To me, the rest of the group had been reassembled along with a different XJ that I had just seen for the first time which now I see is Dustin. Everybody laughed, along with me, about Ryan's cheating comment. You all mentioned he would learn the hard way by waiting for you to go get him. I was surprised that a plan was not being formed. Socializing seemed to be more of a priority then rescue. This is the point where it was time to decide who was going to rescue your son, now that the group had re-grouped. If it were my son, I would have been on my way up. The schenario was being taken far too lightly. I was not taking my kids back in.

Chris had a winch, and a CB, and it was his son. Ige had a winch, and a HAM radio, they work together. Everybody else seemed totally capable, except maybe the FJC's, of going up there, and they were headed down with me. I showed everybody where we were on the MVUM, and where Ryan was. I announced we were leaving, and offered that the FJC's should follow me. Everybody was mingling, we left. We saw the other Jeeps headed in to you which must have the 4WP guys.

1. Has everybody been accounted for who was out there?

2. Everybody except the Ram left?

Chris

February 16th, 2015, 09:22 PM

Brandtrbs

February 16th, 2015, 09:27 PM

its all good everybody, relax and take at face value. Nobody's pointing fingers, life's to short. Everybody got home safe and sound.

Atl-atl

February 16th, 2015, 10:00 PM

Ive been mulling over responding to this all day. Thankfully I was super busy so it kept my mind off the subject until now. There were a number of factors that played into the situation. Considering I was in the middle literally and figuratively for this entire situation I feel it is my right to comment. I will say I did not have a radio so I was a part of the problem. I am not trying to say I did everything right because I didnt. What I will do though is list the mistakes I saw that should have easily been avoided.

-Poor preparation/planning
-Lack of true leadership
-Lack of communication
-Leaving people behind
-People willingly leaving the group alone

- the run was planned without a clear leader and no real preparation other than a couple vehicles airing down. Just before the start Ige decided to be the trail leader because she was the most experienced on this trail. It was clear to me about 5 minutes after leaving the trailhead Ige was in a hurry. She immediately would lose the group any time we were driving. Many of the vehicles in the group had to drive faster than they were comfortable driving in an attempt to keep up. When we caught up and started again Ige was immediately out of sight. After the two FJ cruisers got stuck a couple times Ige showed up and told us she had accidentally taken a trail she didn't mean to take. While this was going on Ryan had been charging ahead and decided to keep going on his own while others decided to turn back. We mulled what to do for a while and I agreed to help Chris go in search of Ryan while everyone else headed down the mountain.

There were two major rules broken yesterday that are never ever ever supposed to be broken, everyone in the group knew these rules and knew better yet some decided to break the rules anyway.

#1. You never leave people behind, you wait for them, no matter how slow they are or impatient you are. Especially if you are the trail leader and the only person that knows the trails from experience.
#2. You never go alone. Confidence, cocky-ness, whatever you want to call it has no place in the mountains. In perfect weather and conditions people end up dead when they split from the group. Mid-winter with a snowstorm in the forecast makes this type of action/thought process exponentially worse.

Avoiding admitting these mistakes is just as big of a problem as making them in the first place. Sweeping it under the rug and getting upset when others want to teach/learn/grow is immature and should not be tolerated by this group. Backing out of the situation quietly will only reinforce making poor decisions again in the future. People that break these rules need to learn from experience, be remorseful and prove to the rest of the group that they won't make the same mistakes again. At times every has to swallow their pride and leave their attitude at the door or trailhead.

The positive way out of this situation is using the mistakes made as a training exercise and experience to look back on, not getting bent out of shape over internet posts. In my opinion there should be a group training exercise at the next major get together where this situation is brought up and discussed so everyone in the group will be better as a result. I propose the annual event as the best time for this to happen. I will gladly work with the powers that be to coordinate this if requested and would invite those with the most experience to work on a standard operating procedure for all future trail runs organized through this forum.

Max

February 16th, 2015, 11:54 PM

Is it too soon to ask for pictures? :D

Edit: I'm also curious who all these other people/rigs are that people keep mentioning.

Jim

February 16th, 2015, 11:58 PM

Hot Dang, NO!

I've been waiting for the run report since 3am last night!!

mikeyhcrana

February 17th, 2015, 05:59 AM

This back and forth is getting old, mistakes were made, lessons learned, time to move on. Facts: I wasn't told anything, wasn't shown anything, never heard any comment on the CB, or heard you announce you were leaving.

The end.

You have over 12,00 post and you are telling me enough of the back and forth. What is this forum for, social B.S. ???

Your facts are incorrect.

This is the begining for me not the end. Because your leadership exposed several basic mistakes, it has made this run an example people should learn from.

We all know we aren't supposed to go wheeling alone, that is why we all met up, not because we are friends. I don't know any of you but I would help anybody on the trail. Maybe we will become friends. When people break off of the group and leave alone it is because they have lost faith in the leadership. I could not trust you or Ige to get me and my kids out safe that day. I'm sorry you had trouble and others had to come to your rescue.

Java

February 17th, 2015, 07:30 AM

wow. this thread is crazy. the lady doth protest too much, methinks. glad everyone is OK, Rick, Cliff and Wiley are ******* awesome!! :thumb:

Just out of curiosity, who exactly was on this run?

Jim

February 17th, 2015, 08:23 AM

This thread is getting "close" for the guy behind the curtain with a button to press.

Keep it courteous and constructive or take it to PM or e-mail.

Rick

February 17th, 2015, 08:47 AM

all I can say at this point is wow!!! This situation is a good learning experience. This by far could of been worse but it wasnt. If this is the worst situation you ever get in then you are lucky. I personally have been in way worse and is just part of the hobby... The same things keep getting repeated over and over and that is why its getting old and its starting to get people annoyed. Learn from it and move on....All are to blame for some reason or another for the situation and it is what it is . Can we all be friends again? :thumb:

Jim

February 17th, 2015, 08:57 AM

Rick's post is what is on my mind.

It's perhaps a perfect way to complete the thread.

Chris

February 17th, 2015, 09:05 AM

Let's see the good stuff - pics anyone?

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?22785-Yankee-Hill-Sunday-Feb-15th

fredrok

February 17th, 2015, 10:39 AM

Phew. Man, I've never been so happy to have MISSED a trail run. I was intending to go but some things with the wife/family came up and the wx forecast sealed the deal for me personally.

BUT, I have to say, there's a Jeep commercial in here somewhere.... ;)

mikeyhcrana

February 19th, 2015, 09:10 AM

Please allow me to apologize to Chris, Ryan, & Mike(along with your passengers) for not being there with you, on the mountain, Sunday evening.

Also, let me apologize to Rick, Cliff, Wiley, and everybody else that was affected, that I am unaware of, for having to send out a rescue party that night. And thank you for being there when I wasn't.

I was wrong for leaving when I did on Sunday.

Rick

February 19th, 2015, 09:17 AM

No worries...All turned out fine.... Ive been in your shoes and I do understand.... Now for the next adventure!:thumb:

The StRanger

February 19th, 2015, 12:02 PM

Can we all be friends again? :thumb:

:thumb::GroupHug:

The StRanger

February 19th, 2015, 12:05 PM

Phew. Man, I've never been so happy to have MISSED a trail run. ;)

:erm:I dont know. :erm:
I personally like a good story, And I have a feeling this story will be around for a while !!

Rick

February 19th, 2015, 12:15 PM

X2!!!

xaza

February 19th, 2015, 04:09 PM

Also, let me apologize to Rick, Cliff, Wiley, and everybody else that was affected, that I am unaware of, for having to send out a rescue party that night. And thank you for being there when I wasn't.
I was wrong for leaving when I did on Sunday.

No apologies needed for me, I could have easily said no and it would not have been my problem, I got to go play in the snow! I don't believe anybody disagreed with you about getting your family out while you could, I think someone should have been with you on the way out preferably someone who knows the area. Following your GPS in a large network of trails can lead you astray. Sometimes the shortest way is not the best way in the mountains. We as a group get to make ourselves better from our experiences. Telling people how important communication is does not set in like having a story of why it is so important.

Jim

February 19th, 2015, 04:22 PM

Hello Mike,

Your recent post is refreshing. Thank you.

From prior, your comment:

This is the begining for me not the end.
put me at attention (for a thread that seemed to be moving in a bad direction).

The common theme for what "could have been done differently" is evident. We're all for constructive communication to improve things.

I'm not sure how many group runs you were on since you joined last May, though I believe this will prove to be "not the norm".

Regards,
Jim

dieseldoc

February 19th, 2015, 05:46 PM

I have to say mike ATL mike has a great idea. Use the annual to deal with some of the issilues this and one more run that weekend expossed.
I by no means am percect. My impatience shows up now and then too.
As I have been lerkong about with this one I must say very glad everyone ant there rig has made it home.
Something I have noticed here vs. my utah club, we dont do a drivers meeting at the start of the trail run.
This was something we did every run no matter how many time someone had been out, or on that trail.
the leader was always clearly designated, mid man and tail gunner as well.
The small numbers we have going might be part of that. As we had 10 plus on most runs in southern utah.
Just a thought....I know for me with something I put together from now on I will be having a drivers meeting at the start of the day.

Brandtrbs

February 19th, 2015, 06:16 PM

Deiseldoc has the right idea, I know I messed up Sunday but lifes full of mistakes that you learn from. Maybe we all should take is suggestion to heart.

Chris

February 19th, 2015, 07:08 PM

Probably a good idea since there are a bunch of new folks here. In the past we'd run primarily with the same core group and there wasn't any need for these formalities. When someone new joined on a run they were well taken care of, provided advice and plenty of guidance. Obviously that's not where we stand now so changes would make sense.

Jackie

February 19th, 2015, 08:42 PM

I remember my first trail run with my brand new Rubicon. I was joining a group of about 16 rigs for what they called their "Family/Newbie fun run". It was so much fun! The leader lined us up accordingly using his best judgment to make sure we understood the rules. He made sure the newbies were surrounded front and rear so there was a spotter available in any given situation. The guy that was following me approached my window when we all stopped for some reason, (Somebody had to pee?) and told me he thought I should shift into "4-LO". (He lost me there...) I honestly didn't know how or why to do that, but he explained the importance without making me feel like a dummy and then explained how I do it). I LOVE people like that! Great teacher following me that day! (I have to send him some apples)!

The StRanger

February 19th, 2015, 09:01 PM

Shoot. My 1st run here in Co was with a group of wackadoddles from Colorado cry & wine !!
I have my bone stock Ranger, Mixed in with a batch of top end Crawlers !!
That was a sink or swim run !!

H8ROADS

February 20th, 2015, 09:26 AM

Everything else aside, I think this serves as an important reminder to everyone who DOESNT have a CB - GET A CB. It costs <100 all in in most cases. If you need help installing it, tuning it, whatever, just ask. I'll be the first to volunteer to help. Don't be like ma bell, with that ill communication!

dieseldoc

February 20th, 2015, 09:38 AM

Jackie

February 20th, 2015, 11:04 AM

I bought a hand-held CB for about $80. It doesn't work beyond a few miles, so on the highway, it would be hit or miss. But when you're on the trail it works fine. I also have a cheap set of walkie-talkies that I usually bring to share with others. Not the best, but improves communication. Also there is a HORN on your rig, right? Use it if you have to. (It's kinda like "Horton Hears a Who").

dieseldoc

February 21st, 2015, 09:28 AM

Also there is a HORN on your rig, right? Use it if you have to. (It's kinda like "Horton Hears a Who").
Right!
we have gotten our CB I have to get the bracket for the mounting point I want so founds are the issue right now.....booo....

SubAlpine

February 21st, 2015, 08:22 PM

Being a parent AS WELL, I would say there is no need to apologize for leaving if you felt the need to get out and keep the fam safe. It sounds like communication was lacking. That is it. Letting the group know you are heading down alone could have saved a possible disaster. Glad every one is OK. Wow

H8ROADS

February 22nd, 2015, 05:01 PM

The CB issue is incadental. With a 10 truck group you need 3. Leader, middle man, and tail gunner.
not every one knows how to use one let alone want to put one in there rig. Some folks are runninv leased unit...so they loose the CB or pay fees for the holes and such...

I respectfully disagree Brandon. It's not incidental - and this run was a case in point. While I can agree that you generally can get by with just a few (especially in good conditions), every run I've ever been on that has had problems there has always been a common thread and this is it. The higher the CB ratio the less likelihood of people being left behind, that's just a safe assumption and odds favorite.

True, CBs aren't your savoir and sometimes range can be an issue - but I'd always rather have one than not. When you mix in poor weather, well you can guess how that impacts things such as it did here.

Regarding leased vehicle, mall crawler, or whatever you may be running that can't have a permanently mounted CB - that's why they make handhelds and 12v plugs/batteries. Bonus - you can get out of the vehicle to assist in recoveries and still communicate. Highly recommended for a leader or co-pilot. They also cost $60 and don't require any tuning or fuss, so for someone who isn't sure about CBs or how to tune/install them, it's even easier. Seams like a reasonable cost for peace of mind.

Bottom line, if you want to help avoid being left behind, then stop being 'that guy without the CB'.

2c from someone who's never been left behind.

Chris

February 22nd, 2015, 07:16 PM

I agree that they're important, I took the tailgunner spot since I had a CB and experience. Little good it did me!

Txjkjpr

February 24th, 2015, 08:45 AM

I agree that they're important, I took the tailgunner spot since I had a CB and experience. Little good it did me!

I've been following this thread for my own information (seems like there were many rescues on various trails that weekend, and not just this trail). If I read the thread correctly the leader had a HAM radio and others had CB's. Correct me if I'm wrong but those two can not talk to one another. Leader and Tailgunner should be able to communicate at least. If commo is lost with tailgunner, stop and wait. My observation.

I wheel with a CB and also carry a hand held CB as well as Walkie Talkies. Cheap Craigslist finds.

Chris

February 24th, 2015, 08:57 AM

Not quite, nobody had a HAM though I am licensed and will be picking one up soon. I was the tailgater and the only other CB was the guy this in line.

I heard various versions of the other group stuck which I understand was posted on Facebook. I don't use FB so don't know anything about that one.

Jim

February 24th, 2015, 09:00 AM

If commo is lost with tailgunner, stop and wait. My observation.

I see the talk about CB's and it seems the intent is that 'if we only had CB's all would have been good'. Yes. Possibly.

I wish to reinforce the fact of you watch out for the person behind. That is ALL that is needed. No radio's, which are a convenience, but also an electronic device that does not always work. People's eyes keeping track of other vehicles are dependable - when people adhere to the practice.

In my time snowmobiling midwestern trails, the you're responsible for the person behind was THE rule and practice. We did not have CB's on the sleds. We didn't have a group breaking up. We weren't tailgating each other either.

Watching out for the person behind was dependable and everyone was able to practice it in every vehicle they had that trip.

If you don't have a CB, they are not required. They can be a nice convenience - but they come second in line to always keeping an eye on the person behind - and stopping / waiting for them or going back to check upon them. The stop/wait/check will flow up the group to the lead. Should any member of the group NOT adhere to the practice, they get a polite chat and perhaps moved to the back of the pack where there is nobody behind to be kept track of.

0.02

Txjkjpr

February 24th, 2015, 09:23 AM

I agree with you Jim keep the guy behind you in sight is the 1st rule, and it was not my intention to suggest that all would have been good if everyone had a CB, however having as many tools as possible to help communicate is always a good thing.

Not having CB's as a requirement is fine as long as rule #1 is followed and the trail plan is discussed and everyone understands the protocols.

Chris- sorry if I misunderstood a previous post that stated that the leader had a HAM.

As far as the other trail situations that weekend- Rocky Mountain Search and Rescue was activated to assist in a trail recovery and they posted some lessons learned. It can be found on their site. I don't have those details other than rumors, but the lessons learned details seems to suggest that the group got separated and some left the group and no one knew where they were. They were later found safe and sound.

Chris

February 24th, 2015, 10:15 AM

I wish to reinforce the fact of you watch out for the person behind. That is ALL that is needed.

I agree 100% Jim and I also agree with John 100%.

I am getting a HAM more for the times I wheel alone (I know, I know) so I can hopefully reach someone if things go south.

Jim

February 24th, 2015, 09:52 PM

it was not my intention to suggest that all would have been good if everyone had a CB, however having as many tools as possible to help communicate is always a good thing.

Hey John,

Perhaps I mis-read. No worries from me either way. Having CB's does make things go more smoothly (and quickly) as we can talk while moving vs. stopping, getting out to walk back and forth to get a message across. Not a bad thing (gettng out and walking) on a lazy summer's afternoon - but sitting in where it's warm and dry on a cold winter's evening it a tad different. That's the convenience aspect which is different than the basic safety of staying a group.

In the end - I can't wait to get out on a trail with y'all!