Crazy Security Lug Nut Removal... HELP!

[spectre6000]

I've been around the block a few times, and this is a new one on me. It's also a new one for several guys at THREE different FLAPSes. It's also a new one for guys at three different tire/other mechanical shops. Totally stymied. It's not even that big a deal, just an odd thing in a tight spot.

Anyway, I got this truck about two weeks ago. Trade deal, nothing really came with it. The two front tires are newish Firestones, and the rears are old enough (don't remember, don't care)'s that are a little checked. I have a set of BFG All Terrains on a set of very nice military wheels just sitting on my other truck, so I figured no biggie, just swap them around. I went to do just that, and these blingy aftermarket alloy wheels have these crazy wheel locks on them. Not one per wheel... No, that would be easy... 23 of them (one is missing on one wheel).

No big deal, I'll just go get the socket and remove it. Well... No one has this socket. In fact, no one has ever even seen locks like this! The holes in the wheels are too tight to really get anything more than pretty much whatever is supposed to fit in there. That means no reverse-threaded impact thing or the tapered friction guy. I tried the old hammer-a-slightly-too-small-socket-on-it trick, but the splines are so narrow and they're spaced such that there's not enough purchase to really make any progress (X23).

So I'm stuck. Someone clearly got them off in the not too distant past in order to put those new tires on, but the guy I got it from was a flipper and didn't own it long. Before anyone asks, I've all but sanitized the thing, and the key isn't hiding in there anywhere. I'm open to any ideas anyone may have.

Here's a photo of the mess.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TvLZGPL05doM1FOQgbBAawjnuO4zZ1MUnFI4UTcf39E=w640-h480-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TL0qzk4B6ZQ5s5gZRVW0Gwa3ehQSOfmoaxi_62_uDDg=w640-h480-no

There are seven narrow and square shouldered splines, and they're asymmetrically spaced with three on one side, and four on the other with an extra wide gap separating the two groupings. No markings on the lug nuts or the wheels.

[Jim]

Weld on a nut or bolt to the top of the lug nut and then turn the welded item.

[Patrolman]

I think it is of this variety:
http://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts/MC/18018-07172171.html?utm_content=MC&utm_term=2004-2006%2C+2008-2010%2C+2012-2013+Scion+xB+Wheel+Lock+Set+Dorman+04-06%2C+08-10%2C+12-13+Scion+Wheel+Lock+Set+2012+2008&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ff&utm_campaign=PartsGeek+Google+Base&gclid=Cj0KEQjwo7auBRCOtoqn_s-G7aMBEiQAxArNrMJSLp7h7Z4hke1VbIrpOlteeqlwmc1I-59gz7xJ3EoaAnYf8P8HAQ

They are pretty common, and I think there are only a couple different keys for them. There are different manufacturers, and of course they differ slight for each vehicle. The problem is the wheel has a very narrow hole to get the nut into, and I am sure you can't get a regular socket in there. If you can get a 12 point socket in there, you MIGHT be able to get the nut off, but you are going to ruin the locking nut. Who cares at this point though. Just be careful not to round off the outer part of the lock.

[ExplorerTom]

Go to a Discount Tire. They have that spline key.

[spectre6000]

Weld on a nut or bolt to the top of the lug nut and then turn the welded item.

Definitely considered it, but welding to chromed pot metal seems difficult, and more so in such tight quarters.


I think it is of this variety:
http://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts/MC/18018-07172171.html?utm_content=MC&utm_term=2004-2006%2C+2008-2010%2C+2012-2013+Scion+xB+Wheel+Lock+Set+Dorman+04-06%2C+08-10%2C+12-13+Scion+Wheel+Lock+Set+2012+2008&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ff&utm_campaign=PartsGeek+Google+Base&gclid=Cj0KEQjwo7auBRCOtoqn_s-G7aMBEiQAxArNrMJSLp7h7Z4hke1VbIrpOlteeqlwmc1I-59gz7xJ3EoaAnYf8P8HAQ

They are pretty common, and I think there are only a couple different keys for them. There are different manufacturers, and of course they differ slight for each vehicle. The problem is the wheel has a very narrow hole to get the nut into, and I am sure you can't get a regular socket in there. If you can get a 12 point socket in there, you MIGHT be able to get the nut off, but you are going to ruin the locking nut. Who cares at this point though. Just be careful not to round off the outer part of the lock.

Nope. I've had a half dozen of those in my hands today. Varying sizes are available, and all are symmetrical.


Go to a Discount Tire. They have that spline key.
I went to three different tire stores this afternoon. All were flummoxed. One guy (actually the Discount Tire guy) suggested it was the seven spline jobbie too. He didn't notice the asymmetry or didn't know the seven spline guys are symmetrical.

I did have some success just now. Googling asymmetrical security lug nuts (and every imaginable variation thereof) produces very little. I did find a vague mention to it though on some Japanese tuner car forum. The only photo was of a super mangled lug nut that may or may not be what I have, but there was a NAPA part number. I ordered the tool... $40-something, and it's only a maybe...

That got me thinking though. I saw a reverse threaded impact socket at O'Reilly that could have maybe worked if it weren't so fat, but the NAPA one was much more coarse. I'd actually seen stripped nut removal sockets like that before! I ran out and managed to find a set surprisingly quickly that had a size that would work. I rushed home to try it out, and it still fought pretty hard, but I got one off!!!!

Like these:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418Kz06JJwL.jpg

It's only one out of 23, and I didn't really try to get the lug nut back out of the socket, but that's still one down and a proof of concept. Tomorrow morning is going to be a PITA, but I'm pretty sure I'll have the good wheels and tires on the new truck before lunch tomorrow!

[Patrolman]

The locking lug nuts that we put on my wife's car last week are not symmetrical. There might be a couple dozen keys though which doesn't help much. Glad that you seem to have found a solution.

[DoctorDuke]

Man, it looks like even if you had the key it would be a tight fit...

Welding the nut would work - hard chrome and all. you weld the inside of the nut, fat jam nut is better because you have more room inside the nut to weld.

I've had luck cutting a slot into the end and air hammer it loose - but there was more room to work on it.

[spectre6000]

Preface: I've been around the automotive block a few times. I've experienced and dealt with myriad unique and exotic challenges. Some more difficult than others, some more unexpected than others. This is one for the book though... Yesterday didn't go as planned to say the least.

I had anticipated taking a quick 15 minutes or so to simply swap the wheels and tires around last weekend, then discovered the crazy lug nuts. I took a few passes with some random sockets, hammering fitting, etc. then decided that was a dead end. Somehow, whenever I could get a socket onto a lug nut, it would kick it off when I turned it... Something about the spline spacing. I went to try to find the actual tool, and was told it simply didn't exist and to go to Discount Tire or something to have them take them off. "No prob!", thought I, "I've spent so many thousands of dollars with them on tires on interesting and memorable cars, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to zip some wheels off for me!" No dice. They didn't have the tool. A few more tire shops, and that's when I started the thread.

Then I saw where someone had used a specific tool on some lug nuts that looked (in their thoroughly mangled guise) like they might be similar to what I had, and that got me thinking about that nut extractor mentioned above. I picked one up, and managed to get one of them removed (1/23)! Great news! The next morning I would simply repeat 22 more times, and instead of the wheel juggling being a 15 minute affair, it would take more like 30. Still, not even a big enough task to warrant placement on the scratch list.

Yesterday, I went out to the shop after a pot of coffee and a hearty breakfast, and I set about trying to remove the remaining lug nuts. Well... The extractor I got wasn't exactly the highest quality, and by the time I had mangled the second lug nut loose, and mangled a third enough to simply have frustrated myself (2/23), I realized the tool itself was toast. Too soft. It was clearly some hardened tool steel, so whatever these lug nuts were made of meant business... I took the sockets back (which means that $5 coupon was totally wasted), ignored the lifetime warranty (I'd rather have tools and parts that just work instead of tools and parts that I only pay for once, but that I'm constantly having to replace, even if it is free), and headed further down the road to try to find something more on the impact grade scale of tool steel. Home Depot was (not in any way surprisingly) a complete bust, so I embarked on the 40 minute round trip drive to Sears (trip, the first) for the selection and relative quality of Craftsman. They had some impact grade tools that looked like they'd fit the lug nuts and the holes they were buried in, so I dropped the 65 US pesos out of the magic plastic in my pocket and went home to see how much better they were than the cheese grade FLAPS tool.

The verdict: only a little. I was able to get one more of the lug nuts out (total: 3/23) before the tools were starting to strip. These impact stripped-nut removers were 3/8" drive sockets, so I couldn't actually get them on my impact driver and had been using a breaker bar (it worked with the first one after all). I was concerned that my linear-ish application of force was maybe not quite what they were designed for, plus the proximity of the lug nuts to the meat of the wheel and the protruding wheel hub might have compromised the tools' ability to do their job. So I schlepped the 40 minute drive again (trip, the second because Home Depot was still a bust) to get an adapter/extension for my impact driver.

I got back, and proceeded to get one more of the lug nuts free (4/23) before the four impact sockets that were in a range to fit (they're tapered and the lug nuts have a step, so more than one size would fit on more than one section at more than one depth) had totally stripped. At this point, I was thinking this might be a dead end... I dug out the welder and very carefully attempted to weld a nut onto the back of one of the lug nuts. This was probably not the best idea given the likely magnesium composition of the wheels they were buried in, but desperation was starting to set in... Complete failure. I could not get a millimeter of penetration! So I schlepped back to Sears (trip, the third) to exchange them for a new set hoping that maybe the steel was soft or... I don't know. They should not have had any trouble accomplishing the task they were asked to achieve. It was during this visit that I was advised to beat the lug nut manglers on with a hammer. I had done this to some degree before, but I was maybe a bit too ginger with it coming from a background of much slighter built, older, and more fragile automobiles. I came back and succeeded in removing two more lug nuts (6/23) before the set was stripped pretty badly, but still somewhat functional (hopefully). Woo! One wheel free! Let that trickle through your mental sieve a minute: lug nuts.... LUG NUTS! Tearing through not just one ordinary tool, but one ordinary tool AND FOUR (4) high quality-ish impact steel tools, and STILL barely moving an inch!!!! I moved on to the other wheel on that (the front) axle, and mangled one nut before trying another that I had a better angle on. That one actually came right off without getting chewed up much at all (7/23)! Must not have been properly torqued... Then I maybe got one more off (8/23) before the tools were thoroughly cheesed.

Here's one of the least destroyed soldiers:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0xfCfl3L6u3NloA8Akli-mSAANd5KA3du-IwDP4Ds-o=w480-h640-no
Note the splines are stepped from the first attempt with a hammered on socket, then you can kind of see how the splines in the "universal" socket (mentioned below) were able to get through the splines with less resistance and hold a bite somewhat.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1VXPPZSk7jL-JL6_VtUj9rc3feV-1miHpor6rB6v-B0=w480-h640-no
Virtually unscathed... This was not the one that came out easily, yet only the chrome suffered at the hands of the impact stripped nut removers.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kWU-kuYOk_iKb8ETlkQ-6rt-9J9lpUpvwEDQjC2rxn8=w480-h640-no
Note the super deep shoulder that essentially prevents these from being used on much anything other than these specific wheels...

At this juncture, I was pretty deflated. I went to my laptop, dug out my phone, and started walking the (digital) phone book calling every custom wheel shop in Denver (which is actually not that many according to Google, but the typical custom wheel shop doesn't seem like they're populated with the most SEO savvy crowd...). Bust. One recommended calling brake shops, so I did that. Bust. BUT! The Midas in Arvada has historically been very good with some very high quality techs (it's only been the Arvada location in my experience though), and they're the only shop in the state I've ever given any money to. I called them up, and the guy made the only viable (if not entirely practical) suggest I had heard yet... Disassemble each hub from the inside out and grind off the studs from the back of the hub... That might actually have worked, but I was not that desperate yet... It was during this conversation that it dawned on me that the front tires were fairly new Firestones, so SOMEONE had successfully removed these lug nuts in the recent past, and that someone HAD to be a Firestone dealer. I vaguely remembered the address on the floated title having been in Arvada, so I looked up every Firestone dealer in or near Arvada and called hoping someone would remember the truck and either had the tool or could pass my contact information on to the previous owner. This actually showed promise, but ultimately ended up being a dead end.

So I headed back to Sears (trip, the fourth). The salesman and I also looked at another set of manglers that, while black oxided like your typical impact duty steel, did not explicitly state their tool grade as being such. He looked it up on Sears' absolutely abysmal website (seriously, it's so miserably and offensively bad at being a website for Sears that you absolutely can not use it as a guide as to whether or not they actually sell anything... It's like they're trying so very hard to be Amazon, and have completely forgotten that they're not and why that's a good thing... Check it out. It's really bad), and I saw that had I bought these sockets on their website, they would have cost $20 less!!!! That means that for the burden of physically trekking to their store to support their failing physical locations, they charge you 50% more for your courtesy, consideration, and support!!!! Galled, but unable to do much about it, I soldiered on with my guilt at destroying tools thoroughly abated. Since I had already destroyed all of the sets of tools that looked best suited for the job, and since it was now some time around 6 o'clock in the evening, I decided it was shotgun time. I had brought the nearly in tact lug nut with me for reference, and set about poking through the tool department for anything that seemed to have even a marginal chance at success, and simply bought all of it. By this point, the entire tool department was aware of the situation and was rooting for me, giving me suggestions, and expressing dismay, so I knew returning anything unused wouldn't be a problem.

Tools amassed: 12-point deep socket of approximately the right size, another shallower set of manglers, and a set of deep well "universal" sockets that only came in a set if you wanted the necessary-for-the-task deep version. The last is an odd arrangement of splines that's supposed to be able to handle square nuts, stars, 12-point, 6-point, and probably a few others. I'm not sure if they work on all of those applications or not, but I could count the number of times I've encountered anything other than a standard hex on one hand and those times did not present any major road blocks... At any rate, they didn't exist in the 80s when these mystery lug nuts were designed, so the thought was that they may not kick out! The new nut manglers were too shallow. I could barely get one on, but then I couldn't get the impact on it. I wasn't about to go buy another extension just to chew up another set of potentially even softer tools. Enough was enough. I tried the 12-point, but it was just as much a bust as the hex sockets were. I still had three and change wheels to goat this point, and sunset was approaching. Last chance to dance.

The largest "universal" socket in the set was just about the right size, and hammered on surprisingly easy. "Not a great sign", I thought. They seemed harder than the average socket set, and given the way things had been going, I went straight to the impact (I still had that 3/8" adapter after all). What do you know, the ******* zipped right off!!! The next challenge, naturally, was getting the dastardly devil's lug nut back out of the socket... I attempted to get it out with a flat bladed screw driver (the sturdiest one that was at hand), and it was a bust. The curvature of the top of the lug nut was pushing the blade into the side of the socket, and too much force would wedge it in. I then went for the biggest #3 phillips screwdriver I had that I didn't mind messing up a little, stuck it into the end of the socket, and beat it hard against the driveway. The lug nut popped right out! Surely this wouldn't last, but I wasn't about to quit while I was ahead. I hammered it onto the next one, and was met with similar success. Then the next, and the next, and before I knew it, I had the second wheel off! Great success!!! Two down, two to go!

The next wheel went fairly smoothly. It was a lengthy and involved process as far as changing wheels is concerned, but a successful one. Until I got to the last two lug nuts. These ******* were not going down without a fight. The socket splines had all but rounded off, and by the time I got to these last two, the rust and likely over torqueing meant these were holding on extra hard. I got the socket hammered on, but once I hit it with the impact, it would act like it was going to turn, then it would just spin... All but certain of failure there at the last possible inches of the last possible yard, with the only successful tool for the job now shot, I tried the next size down... It wasn't easy getting the largest one onto the lug nuts from hell, and it was quite difficult getting them out of the socket once removed, so this smaller size was likely to be a real bear... I only had two left though, and the sun was going down, so even if I had to try extra hard to get them out, there was still a chance for success before something finally gave all the way. I had to dig out the bench vise and hammer them out, but I did ultimately manage to get the last two lug nuts off and finish the 15 minute wheel change in only 28 elapsed hours... I gathered up the failure pile, and took the tools that didn't work back to Sears to get my money back on the unsuitable tools for a fifth and final trip...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WuFuqqhN6fryp60uE5Na2OwE1WmlTPbglGVt33NV8WA=w640-h480-no
Final result... 33" BFG ATs on steel military wheels from my other truck. No more delaminating and sun cracked tires or rusted flaking aftermarket wheels... And none of the transmission, transfer case, or differential work I had intended to do yesterday has been touched.

Final casualty tally:
lug nuts: 22 + one nearly in tact; defeated by me.
stripped nut removers: 9; defeated by lug nuts
impact adapter: 1; defeated by hammer
universal sockets: 1; defeated by lug nuts
universal sockets: 2; defeated by lug nuts
hours: ~28 elapsed, ~12 engaged (over $1K if they were billable shop hours at an average shop rate!)

That's a sacrificed tool to lug nut ratio of 2:1... A projected dollar to lug nut ratio of nearly $50:1!!!!!!

[Jim]

HOLY COW - that's a task!

I thought you had only one "security nut" per wheel - not every single nut (ugh).





Perhaps this ran through your mind, but as you mentioned getting sockets off of nuts as being difficult, I'll bring it up...

Screw the stuck nut/socket combo back onto a bolt (either a bolt fastened into your vice or a lug bolt on the truck with the wheel off for more room) only a turn or two and then work to remove the socket. Just an option - perhaps you did consider it.

[Patrolman]

I had thought about bring up this same idea, but thought it would only discourage you even more.

"I called them up, and the guy made the only viable (if not entirely practical) suggest I had heard yet... Disassemble each hub from the inside out and grind off the studs from the back of the hub... That might actually have worked, but I was not that desperate yet..."

[spectre6000]

Perhaps this ran through your mind, but as you mentioned getting sockets off of nuts as being difficult, I'll bring it up...

Screw the stuck nut/socket combo back onto a bolt (either a bolt fastened into your vice or a lug bolt on the truck with the wheel off for more room) only a turn or two and then work to remove the socket. Just an option - perhaps you did consider it.

This was actually probably the easiest of the day's challenges... Only took two or three strategic attempts to find something that worked, and it worked almost every time.

[spectre6000]

I had thought about bring up this same idea, but thought it would only discourage you even more.

"I called them up, and the guy made the only viable (if not entirely practical) suggest I had heard yet... Disassemble each hub from the inside out and grind off the studs from the back of the hub... That might actually have worked, but I was not that desperate yet..."

I had this thought as well, but had it in the very back of the line... That would likely take a few weeks to get done with the amount of time I have available for such things, and it would pretty much be down the whole time...

[BLOODBANE]

Pro-Comp has a anti theft lug that 4wheel parts just sent me for my new rims and tires on my Ranger(wrong size anyways). You might try hitting up a 4wheelparts store and seeing if they have what you need....Trying to upload a pic of one (lug) so you can see if its close. from your pics I think they are

[spectre6000]

I called 4wheel parts at one point Saturday... After a truly ridiculous amount of time, I got tired of holding and figured they didn't need or want my business. I didn't think they were likely to have much helpful anyway. It's all sorted though.

[BLOODBANE]

Glad you got it figured out, but just for future reference these are what my lugs look like....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/BLOODBANE81230/20150816_180930_zpsoric2133.jpg

[spectre6000]

Yup. In my very recently hard-earned understanding of wheel locks, I've come to learn that's pretty standard. You can get those guys (and the keys) at O'Reilly (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/DAG0/711355/05225.oap?year=2012&make=Honda&model=Civic&vi=1501247&ck=Search_05225_1501247_2762&pt=05225&ppt=C0337) and elsewhere pretty readily, and any tire shop could have had them off in seconds. There are multiple six and seven spline security lug nuts like those out there, and they're all symmetrical. Had that been the hand dealt, the whole affair would have been over a week ago without being worthy of note.