Getting desperate here, Death wobble

[kkxj]

Hey guys i've been trying to cure death wobble in my 2001 jeep xj 4.5" lift, 33s with no luck and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. It all started when I met a original member of naxja and he told me that I should upgrade my tie rod from stock to v8 grand Cherokee as it is way thicker and heavier duty. I replaced that tie rod and that is where the death wobble started. The truck always had a little vibration around 55mph and went away around 60. As soon as I stuck the new tie rod in it got death wobble for the first time around 45mph. So I did a rough alignment thinking that was the problem and still death wobble. I began to believe that the issue was coming from somewhere else and the new tie rod was only exaggerating the problem because of the extra weight. I then noticed that the steering box would twist the frame when turning the wheel. So I added 4 heavy duty bolts to the parts of the frame that were twisting and now the steering box is solid. Brand new steering box, power steering pump, and pulley were added at this time. I did another rough alignment and still death wobble. I began to look at the track bar as most of the tie rod ends are brand new at this point. I put in a track bar conversation kit that removed the tie rod end on the frame side with a much heavier duty setup. I also noticed that the bottom bolt mount on the axle side was ovaled out so I drilled a new hole and put it back together. Track bar is now solid with maybe 1/8" worth of play or less between full steering lock. I'm assuming that play is just the rubber bushings because it sits in there really tight. Went on another test drive and still death wobble. I'm running out of ideas here and I really don't want to go back to the original tie rod because I feel like I'm just covering up the problem. Do you guys have any suggestions? Is a rough alignment enough to cause death wobble? Is the new tie rod just too heavy for my setup? Also upper control arm bushings look like they could be replaced.
Here's a list of everything I've replaced.
-tie rod from v8 grand Cherokee
-steering box
-power steering pump and pulley
-bolts added to frame to strengthen steering box
-pitman arm
-tie rod at pitman arm and adjustment sleeve
-track bar, better mounting bracket, new hole on axle side.

[xaza]

Typically in my experience tie rods, track bar bushings and axle caster are main causes for death wobble. Do you have adjustable control arms? A worn bushing in a control arm could be the culprit. To check control arms you will need to remove weight off of them or they won't really move. Found this though
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=89888

[ExplorerTom]

Here's what I've done while hunting down vibrations and death wobble causes on my Dana 30:
crawl under and shake and pull every link in the suspension and steering. If you feel movement, find out why and what.
Next jack up one wheel and sit with it between your legs and try to move it left/right. If you feel movement, figure out what and why. Do the same with the other wheel. Also try each wheel in/out at the top and bottom of the wheel.

Things that I've replaced:
upper control arm bushing on the diff (I'm only 3 link so I've only got one)
track bar bushing at the diff (I have a heim at the frame)- I went wth polyurethane
tie rod heim joints.

[94ToyBear]

On another member jeep on here we replaced both track bars with adjustable ones, didn't solve it. Had Allmost new steering parts, Stabilizer was new and work well with a push pull test. Then he greased the adjustable controll arms and wallA...... Never ran aross just greasing the controll arm to fix death wabble ever but it happend to fix this one... Try greasing them and see what happens. Good luck !

[kkxj]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. The only tie rod end I haven't replaced is the one attached to the drag link so I will have to get a new drag link for that. Entire track bar is new so bushings should be fine. My control arms are not adjustable and the ones up top are stock.

I've shook around nearly everything with little or no play. Will try again tomorrow though and see if I can find anything.

I'll try sticking some grease on them tomorrow as well but I don't think mine have a zerk fitting. Looks like I have some more homework to do. I'll get back to you guys. I'll probably get a professional alignment done as well for safe measure.

[The StRanger]

Iv seen a lot of DW from column to gear box steering shaft...
Also box adjustment..

[Spieg]

I know it's too late now but what I would have done at the first sign of a problem would have been to put the old tie rod back on to see if it fixed the problem. Now that you've replaced so many other parts you may have several issues to deal with.

Not sure what you mean by a "rough alignment" but it doesn't sound professional/accurate. I'd recommend taking it to an alignment shop and find out exactly what your toe-in, caster, camber, etc... are at currently and try to adjust everything back to specification. Like mentioned above - caster angle is a leading cause of death wobble, but caster should not have been affected by the tierod swap, so I would really look at your toe-in measurement. Might also throw in some new bushings and make sure your new TREs are good and solid.

[MultiScuf]

Ball joints - Was as issue of mine could be that too idk though just a thought!

[94ToyBear]

It don't look like,it but do you have wheel spacers?
Have you inspected at wheel bearings?

[94ToyBear]

Ball joints - Was as issue of mine could be that too idk though just a thought!

Good one Brandon, yup very possible.
How far away are you from Denver?

[kkxj]

The column and shaft both seemed alright when I put the new box in. And the new box does need to be tightened a little bit as it wanders a little more than before but it was still getting DW with the old tighter box.

Definitely could use upper control arm bushings, lowers are aftermarket and seem to be fine. All replaced tie rod ends have been tripple checked for tightness and ovalling. Rough alignment is me taking a measuring tape to it and doing the toe. I feel like I can get it within 1/4" to 1/8" accuracy. But you're right it should be aligned. Just don't want to have to do it twice if it ends up being something else.

Checked for play in the ball joints but will check again tomorrow.

No wheel spacers. Haven't checked the wheel bearings and definitely going to check that tomorrow since I do have backspacing. I'm In Boulder. Not really feeling up to driving to Denver though. Not with the way the roads are. Any moderate bump will set off the wobble.

[Hypoid]

I think you are at the point where you need to put your XJ on the alignment rack. Tell them about the troubles you have been having, and the new parts you have put on. A good tech will look for any wear that will negate trying to get the suspension aligned. Hopefully, you will get a tech that will take the time to show you the wear, before telling you what needs replaced (if anything).

How closely did you check the frame around the steering gear for cracks?

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS075.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS076.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS052.jpg

[kkxj]

So I checked out the ball joints, wheel bearings, and a whole bunch of other stuff and couldn't find anything abnormal :/. Definitely didn't see any cracks around the steering gearbox. Only bushing that looks like it needs to be replaced is for the upper control arm closest to the pumpkin. And since I bolted the frame tighter I don't see any play from the steering box. Going to try to get it to the alignment shop and see what they can do. There is two places down arapahoe in boulder that seem to specialize in lifted 4x4s.

[94ToyBear]

I would replace the worn bushing before the alignment. But I think your on the right track myself

[94ToyBear]

I dought a wheel balance has anything to do with it, but when the last time you had your wheels balanced?

[kkxj]

Wheel balance was done a couple of months ago so I don't think it would be that. Yeah that's a good idea. I'll have them do all the upper control arm bushings and see if it makes a difference. It definitely looks like there could be some side to side movement on the bushing above the pumpkin. The arm is no longer sitting in the middle of the bushing where it should be.

[Spieg]

Wheel balance was done a couple of months ago so I don't think it would be that.

For those that haven't experience true death wobble, it will not be confused with out of balance tires or slop in the steering shaft. Out of balance tires will cause a vibration, and a worn steering column/shaft coupling or gear box will cause the vehicle to wander on the road, but death wobble is an intense VIOLENT shaking of the front wheel(s)... Think of a shopping cart with a crazy wheel. If driven any distance like that it will typically result in a snapped steering knuckle or TRE. I've even seen it break a motor mount because the vehicle shook so hard. They call it "Death Wobble" because it can be fatal when it breaks a steering component.

[gm4x4lover]

It needs a alignment from a professional. Also an out of balance tire can certainly cause death wobble.

[ExplorerTom]

An out of balance tire might initiate DW, but a tire out of balance by itself should not cause DW.

[gm4x4lover]

This is true. Bias ply tires can also do this.

[moose]

Is a rough alignment enough to cause death wobble?

EDIT: What I meant to say was that it can provoke DW, as in my case.


Any moderate bump will set off the wobble.

This was the case with my Dodge. Long story short. Bought it already lifted. Wheels would "wander". Installed all heavy duty and adjustable track bar, upper and lower control arms, all with heim joints, new Borgeson gear box and Borgeson shaft. The smallest bump would set off the violent shakes.

Turns out, even with my longer, adjustable arms, my caster is off by 1.5 degrees by stock standards. But the culprit was a broken end link joint, which I only found out was broken when I went to swap in all new linkage. So, the lack of negative caster made it prone to bump steer which turned into death wobble. Which had been going on for who knows how long, but the previous worn out bushings would absorb some of the energy and mask it. Once I put in stiffer parts, the problem was magnified.

[kkxj]

What I'm getting is definitely death wobble. It's absolutely terrifying. Although since I strengthened the frame the steering box isn't twisting the frame any more and the death wobble isnt as uncontrollable as the first time. Still have to slow down to 15mph to get it to stop. I'm probably going to have them change out my upper control arm bushings, align it and inspect for me. Maybe I'm just missing something somewhere.

[Hypoid]

Good plan!

[Mark]

I don't claim to be a mechanic but I met a guy that parts out jeeps and he said the number one reason people get rid of there jeep is death wobble! He told me that some had replaced ball joints tie rods to no avail.he said to change out the track bar! That is what stops it.woth a shot.hope it helps ,let us know.

[jayson44]

An out of balance tire might initiate DW, but a tire out of balance by itself should not cause DW.

this is true. just got new tires on Friday. the old ones would initiate DW around 40mph because they were out of balance and worn funny. new ones don't at all. however, I know that there's still something wrong since I got DW with the old ones. the new ones didn't "fix" my DW, they're just balanced so they don't initiate it.

IMO, your comment about the track bar having 1/8th" of play seems like too much to me. mine had about that much when the bushing was worn (I know you said you replaced it) and that's what caused it first. I replaced my trackbar and that fixed it initially. however, I think my trackbar mount on the axle is ovaled a little since it's coming back after only 4 months of using the new trackbar. so I may ultimately need to get that mount replaced for a stronger one. the metal there is pretty flimsy anyways...

just my thoughts.

but yes, get your tires balanced. DW will still need to be fixed, but you'll eliminate something that initiates it.

J.

[ExplorerTom]

1/8"? Did I miss that? 1/8" is massive.

I recently replaced my Heim joints after I detected a gnat's ass worth of play in the spherical joint itself. It was hardly any play- could barely feel it when I pushed the tire in and out with it off the ground. I had a vibration from 30-40 (not DW, just a vibration) and new Heim's solved that. 1/8" would be like the steering is falling apart.

[jayson44]

his first post he says that after drilling a new hole to mount the track bar he sees 1/8" of play. he suspects the bushing is moving. it shouldn't move at all. I'd replace the bushing for sure and make sure the failed bushing didn't wallow out the new mounting hole.

J.

[kkxj]

*update

Brought it to the shop and they said the caster is way off. They are going to put in adjustable control arms and do an alignment. If its not fixed by then I'm going to look at the track bar again. Honestly I might be seeing things as far as that 1/8" play but I see your points. Thanks for the comments guys. I'll keep you updated.

[dieseldoc]

These front ends are more trouble than they should ever be.
Thus why so mamy folks cut then out and 3 link or triangled 4 link it.
Thus why I will be taking mine out.
I have been fighting intermittent death wobble on mine for near 3 years.
Had worped rottors when I bought it. Bad TRE when I bought it.
And a tire that was near impossible to get balanced.
Change the inverted y link junk.....now once a year I have had to replace the TRE, the new kit uses small CJ rod ends so they wear fast.
I now have lower frame mounts that are getting rock shaved.....more things getting cut out...

My front will get a d44 from a 78 ford radius arms and coilovers, Johnny joints one the ends of the radius arms.
Rear gets triangled 4 link thus eliminating the need for a track bar. Thus no wobble backthere ever.
The front will get big 7/8 hiem joints and some heavy wall tubing.
1/4 plate for the mount to be built out of.
With smoe front frame work to stiffen the box/track bar mount area.
Tj are not known for weak sterring box frames but I am hard on this thing.....

Wish my pics would upload.....

[Spieg]

the new kit uses small CJ rod ends so they wear fast.

You may not believe it but my Scrambler still has the original factory TREs. 240,000+ miles (mostly on 33-35" tires) and still going strong. Maybe I'm just lucky?

[Hypoid]

I am hard on this thing.....

Maybe I'm just lucky?


Maybe Brandon is one of those kids who can break an anvil. :D

Kaelan, I'm glad you finally put your Jeep on the alignment rack. Hard data makes all the difference!

[dieseldoc]

Na....cant bust an anvil.....multiscuff (Brandon) might be able to.....

Nice the factory TRE have lasted this long.
These new ones are using some hard plastic that fails way to fast.....
Thus it gets Hiem joins soon...


You saw how we wheel on the Eclipse run.
My shovel, I mean skid plate is thrashed bent and torn.
We just wheel it hard.
We have not had masive failure yet but I do expect it thus the jeep is looked over offten.

As for the O.P. issue what have you tried next?

[kkxj]

So I got it back from the shop on Friday and they changed the caster from around 10 to around 6 with the new upper control arms. They did what they called a road force balance and added a lot of weights to the tires. They also said my rims are crappy and thin and impossible to perfectly balance. My toe alignment with a measuring tape was within spek which I was pleased with. They checked the track bar and all the new stuff I put in and said it was tight. Drove the jeep around and it did better on single bumps than before. Took it down county rd 1 in-between longmont and boulder and still got death wobble. Much easier to catch and slow down though. If you're not familiar with that section of road it has divets evenly spaced and enough of them to bounce your car all around the whole time. That road is my true test and I was able to drive close to 50mph speed limit but had to slow down in a couple of rough spots. So I put the original tie rod back in and slightly better. I'm starting to think there is just too much weight on my steering setup. I'm thinking about saving for a hydraulic assist setup but I'll have to wait a while because of the price. Also been thinking about a dual steering stabilizer setup as its much cheaper. I know steering stabilizers are just Band-Aids and wear out your power steering pump faster but it is the cheaper option. What do you guys think? Any successes or failures with dual steering stabilizers? Should I wait and upgrade the steering setup? Thanks guys.

[xaza]

Your caster was way off but it is closer which is why it is better. I bet if you adjust the caster down another degree it will resolve your issue. I just checked my last 2 alignments and they both show in the red but they are good. No wobbles with caster at 4.3 degrees and most recently managed to tweak it up to 4.7 degrees again wobble free.. While the steering on the XJ is not ideal, it can handle 33" tires fine. When you go to upgrade steering I have had great success on 2 XJ's now with the Curry. I have seen some wheel/tire combos take a lot of weights to balance, but I have never heard of a road force balance.

[Robert B]

you must be running into design flaws now as you have thrown so much effort and money at it its insane. i dont even run a steering stabilizer on mine and the only "death wobble" i had was induced by a sticking brake caliper and was fixed with a bit of cleaning... the only thing i think that was not addressed was the frame side of the track bar. my dads was cracked there and only showed upon powered induced stress.. i also do not know your trucks set up but the TJ uses a single shear point ( horrid design) so if its not already a double shear point mount would be good to have..... best thing would be to strap a wide angle camera with good image stabilization and preferably high FPS to the bottom of the truck go initiate the death wobble and replay the video at a slower FPS to see what is moving / causing the issue :)

[cfr]

I have been battling death wobble on and off for years on my JK. I feel for you. It sucks.

Over on Colorado4x4, Josh at CrawlerTech says he's happy to help anyone troubleshoot if they just stop by the shop,

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?218119-TJ-Death-Wobble-Issue-Help!&p=2378939&viewfull=1#post2378939

[xaza]

Forum had to be reset early this morning so some things got deleted. At 4.5 inches lift your upper control arms should be at stock length. I would bet you have the uppers pushed out too far that the lower can't compensate. Here is a chart to get you close. From there an alignment shop should be able to get your Jeep in it's sweet spot for caster. I would bet you get it below 5 degrees and your issues will be over.

Copied from second post here: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/control-arm-length-chart-81592/

Here you go. This chart is a guide and will get you in the right ballpark. You may have to do some fine tuning from there.

Control Arm Length Application (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/#) Chart
For Jeep (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/#) Cherokee (XJ)

Lift...........Lower Control Arms/Upper Control Arms (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanmuscle.com%2Fwhiteli ne-adj-rear-uca-7904.html%3Futm_content%3Dwhiteline-adj-rear-uca-7904%26utm_campaign%3DConnexityBasicFitment%26utm_ source%3DConnexity%26utm_medium%3DShopping%26AMID% 3Dwhiteline-adj-rear-uca-7904-1988-BaseFitment%26year%3D1988%26model%3D&mid=103510&cat_id=22000200&atom=10681&prod_id=&oid=6582889175&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=9&bamt=f6a916d748cdf64b&cobrand=1&ppr=17ecf1c31aa12986&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2932&af_id=[PUBLISHER_ID]&af_placement_id=1&dv=c0fe6ec4084ea3886d1e966a8a85e08b)
********Decimal**Fraction**Decimal**Fraction
Stock (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/#)........15.75.......15 ¾........15.00.......15
2”.............15.92.......16............14.88.... ...15
3”.............16.09.......16............14.92.... ...15
4”.............16.33.......16 3/8......15.03.......15
4.5”..........16.47.......16 ½........15.11.......15
5”.............16.62.......16 5/8......15.21.......15 ¼
6”.............16.97.......17............15.44.... ...15 ½
7”.............17.36.......17 3/8......15.74.......15 ¾
8”.............17.81.......17 ¾........16.09.......16
9”.............18.30.......18 ¼........16.50.......16 ½
10”...........18.82.......18 ¾........16.96.......17

[jayson44]

the only thing i think that was not addressed was the frame side of the track bar. my dads was cracked there and only showed upon powered induced stress.

this would be my next place to check. I've seen pics of the entire frame-side mount cracking at the top and causing it. doing the dry-steer test should give this away if there are any issues.

J.

[kkxj]

Thanks for all the advice guys, waiting to get my alignment info from the shop. I'll do that tomorrow. Then try adjusting the caster further. Also done the dry steer test many times and haven't seen any cracks. I'm going to look again soon though.

[Serious Offroad]

I think you are at the point where you need to put your XJ on the alignment rack. Tell them about the troubles you have been having, and the new parts you have put on. A good tech will look for any wear that will negate trying to get the suspension aligned. Hopefully, you will get a tech that will take the time to show you the wear, before telling you what needs replaced (if anything).

How closely did you check the frame around the steering gear for cracks?

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS075.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS076.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/Hypoid/Parts%20Dog/UPLOADS052.jpgThis is EXACTLY why I cut off the unibody frame and am building a frame for my XJ.

[GPP33]

This is EXACTLY why I cut off the unibody frame and am building a frame for my XJ.

I'm glad your company is serious offroad because that's a serious mod. Can wait to see it go down. I'm sure plenty of people have a plan to do that but few actually get it done.

[88Toy]

Curious to know where this is going. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is shocks. What I found on my Toyota (cross over steering, no track bar) was that worn shocks, reduced compression dampening specifically, allowed excessive bump steer which led to DW. I definitely feel your pain!

[kkxj]

update

Put in the new tie rod from the zj back in, put in a new drag link which was cheap(now every tie rod is now new), and added another steering stabilizer mounted horizontally from the diff to the tie rod.

Steering is much better now. Drove on super bumpy road going around 50 and could not get it to death wobble. Steering still jerks a bit but will not escalate to death wobble. Im happy with the results right now but I'll probably have someone weld a new plate for the track bar mount on the axle side to get it as tight as possible. Also thinking about getting better rims since it still vibrates around 55-60mph. They said my rims couldn't be balanced very well. The new shock looks kinda stupid so eventually might find a way to get it mounted over the tie rod. Still going to adjust caster further just waiting to get new sway bar links so they aren't touching the shocks. Should caster be different for low pinion and high pinions diffs? I have low pinion?

[Serious Offroad]

Caster should be 6-8 deg regardless.

[Shadowmaker]

The culprit on my XJ was the track bar. The original one was torqued down well enough, but I did not notice the slight ovaling of the passenger side mount.

I installed http://www.ironman4x4fab.com/Products/TB.html and it saved the XJ from heading to the junk yard.