MSV - Coney Flats (good news bad news)

[Tom]

First the good news. MSV-Coney Flats trail will officially open for the season tomorrow, (Sun 6/26) in the afternoon sometime. I ran it today with TRR and the FS. We cleared 12 down trees and widow makers. And put up some new signage. Others rebuilt the gate keeper, painted the entrance signs and hut as well as hauled 200' of buck and rail. The buck and rail is to be installed tomorrow and the gates will open as soon as its completed.

Now for the bad news. The FS told us they'd licensed two atv rental firms to use the trail. I'd get out there soon if you want to run it before the trail is destroyed.

[dieseldoc]

Well F#%@ there goes one of the best sets of trails....
Going to be crawling with ATV's and going to get covered in trash.
Will be all kinds of new illegal bypasses as well.

[96EXXLTinCO]

Headed to T33 tomorrow morning with a couple other RBV's. Looks like I'll be running this tomorrow then!!! Why on earth would the FS let them use 2 of the most popular trails in the area?? Wasn't taking over Bunce and ironclads enough?? I suppose since they are connecting they don't have a lot of choice though?

[Tom]

Headed to T33 tomorrow morning with a couple other RBV's. Looks like I'll be running this tomorrow then!!! Why on earth would the FS let them use 2 of the most popular trails in the area?? Wasn't taking over Bunce and ironclads enough?? I suppose since they are connecting they don't have a lot of choice though?Don't plan on runnigit on Sunday unless late in the day. Like I said its opening after the project is completed.

[Tom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaRysIYTpn0

[Brucker]

ATV's are a part of our community as well. Instead of looking down upon a few bad eggs, like so many do to us, why don't we use our energy to educate those around us and those we see/meet on the trail. Seems that would be a much better example than blaming one certain crowd for all the troubles. I know I don't enjoy being blamed for the few asshats that are involved with our sport.

And we can hope that the owners/operators will do their due diligence. And as far as I know, no one shoots up at MSV. That will leave a lot of the trash out of the equation. Also, MSV, with all it's water crossings and few obstacles, maybe there won't be that much more traffic. Maybe.

[Hypoid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaRysIYTpn0&feature=youtu.be
Linky no worky...


ATV's are a part of our community as well. I appreciate the sentiment, and would hope the business owners are just as vested in accessibility as we are.

So far, I have written only a letter. If I were to write an essay, the thesis statement would be that having more users who are educated to the issues surrounding land use, would affect the culture of the collective group.

Oops! There i go getting all political... :rolleyes:

[Tom]

Link fixed.

Have you guys seen what the rental atvers have done to Bunce, Ironclads, and T33a?

Obtw the rental companies had certified sawyers that were going to clear trees on Sat. They didn't show. ATVers as a group have no respect from me.

[Brucker]

ATVers as a group have no respect from me.

I really wish there was something that I could do or say to change your mind. Thinking like this is what drives groups apart. And like it or not, ATVs, side by sides, motorcycles, and others are all apart of the off road community. And we need EVERYONE to come together if we stand even the slightest chance of education toward keeping our trails safe and open. We have too many opponents already to start turning on each other. Public land is just that. It should be open and available to all. And all of us should be good stewards of said land. And that will not never happen without good people like you stepping up, putting hurt feeling aside, and helping the cause.

[Java]

ATV owners are part of the offroad community, but a tourist renting one for a 1/2 day is not, IMO. In FL we called them the Griswalds like "Vacation", they'd crash scooters, jet skis, boats, cars, motorcycles, bikes, just about anything they could rent and use with little or no experience. They'd go into protected areas, make wakes in no wake zones, drive on the beach, miss stop signs, it all drove the locals crazy. I'd imagine our local ATV community has the same responsible to reckless ratio as us, and I've never heard of any issues with them in those areas before this. Rental customers are tough on equipment and everything else. The owner of the rental is one of us though, I bet he / she would be eager to eliminate problems if someone reached out to them or the Forest Service especially with pics or videos. I know in Idaho Springs all the rentals are guided tours only, and they don't have many issues, that could be suggested.

Owners don't do this:

"Just a few friends and a jeep rental on a weekend trip to Moab, Utah. I'd definitely recommend the optional insurance upgrade... if you know what I mean."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP4ji3MXpNQ

[newracer]

I heard that by having the agreements the rental companies will have to provide at least minimal training and educations and they can be held responsible for the actions of the renters.

[newracer]

Abandoned rental jeep on Hell's Revenge in Moab.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc129/newracer/Moab%202009/IMG_4104.jpg (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/newracer/media/Moab%202009/IMG_4104.jpg.html)

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc129/newracer/Moab%202009/IMG_4105.jpg (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/newracer/media/Moab%202009/IMG_4105.jpg.html)

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc129/newracer/Moab%202009/IMG_4106.jpg (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/newracer/media/Moab%202009/IMG_4106.jpg.html)

[Chris]

:oops: I don't think Cliffhanger Rental intended the renters to be so literal!

I've gotten more annoyed with rented ATV's when they just don't know the basic trail etiquette. Example was climbing some long stretch in BV and seeing an ATV sitting dead ahead in the middle of the trail at the top making me go around him. Just stupid!

As an 'old guy' I have noticed the majority of these drivers are in my age group. Not sure I should generalize but that's mostly what I've run in to. I hope it's just because we, like other retirees, wheel weekdays but it's getting more popular in the older population.

[dieseldoc]

I fully believe that all rentals should be guided tours only.
After living in Moab for a year and a half, the Griswalds are just plain stupid fools.
Go rent something and trash it.
You would not be live the stories people tell about how 3-5 grand of damage gets done!
As well as how they didn't know they were not to take the said rented vehicle to a trail it was not to go!

As for the ATV users, I see more bad behavior from them than I do out of the 4x4 community.
You will not catch me in rampart range during peak session.

[Chris]

I won't go to Rainbow Falls due to ATV's - had one almost hit me coming around a curve and had a second one slam into me doing significant damage to his machine and my truck. Once, just some idiot, twice I stay away. Condeming users of a trail based on two people - yes!

[The StRanger]

I really wish there was something that I could do or say to change your mind. Thinking like this is what drives groups apart. And like it or not, ATVs, side by sides, motorcycles, and others are all apart of the off road community. And we need EVERYONE to come together if we stand even the slightest chance of education toward keeping our trails safe and open. We have too many opponents already to start turning on each other. Public land is just that. It should be open and available to all. And all of us should be good stewards of said land. And that will not never happen without good people like you stepping up, putting hurt feeling aside, and helping the cause.

X2. Anybody who is willing to get out and enjoy the world should be welcome..
Just help to teach them stay the trail and pack out more than you bring in..

[newracer]

Not to mention the single largest source of money that goes to trails comes from the license that motorcycles, ATVs, and side by sides are required to purchase.

[dieseldoc]

I totally get it.
But I still lean to the need for them to have more requirments.
These machines have no yearly inspections, no emissions testing, no drivers license requirments, and no plate to allow other users a way to report there miss use and actions.
We have a plate that can be used to track down the S!*# Birds who do damage or off off trail behavior And I guarantee you that the ATV proud uses that plate to report people.
The fact is out in the rampart range they have kill one another with there high speed stupidness.
You don't see that kind of behavior in our part of the community.

[Max]

And like it or not, ATVs, side by sides, motorcycles, and others are all apart of the off road community.

What about people who hike, bike, camp, and ride horses?

[96EXXLTinCO]

A couple quick examples of my "awesome" run-ins with ATV's/UTV's. Last year I passed a guy on Fern Creek in a UTV who was headed up while I was headed down. We made room for each other to pass, waved and said thank you to each other, no big deal. Got down to the end of the trail where there's a big open dirt area. Myself and the other 2 rigs we were with pulled over and talking and walked back up the trail a bit to take some pics. The same guy I passed a bit earlier came back down the trail, smiled and waved at us as he went by, then proceeded down to where our trucks were, backed up to the drivers side of mine and floored it peppering the side of my truck with gravel and filling everyone's truck with dust. Let me tell you how lucky he is I was so far away from my truck, I'll leave it at that. This was a UTV owner.

Next, I ran T33 with a couple friends from a facebook group this last Sunday. The trail was great, a good challenge for the little Explorer. The company on the trail, good guys, would do anything for anyone. BUT, rental UTV's/ATV's EVERYWHERE. Zero etiquette, zero patience, zero respect. One j*$ass in particular.......I was caught up in a traffic jam at one point in the trail, it was going to take a while to figure out how to get a lot of trucks past one another. This world class moron in a rental UTV (they're easy to spot, they have a big orange slow moving vehicle type triangle with a number on it) apparently decided he didn't need to wait for anything, probably because he was trying to get the most out of his money (have you seen what they're charging for these things???) and proceeded to weave his way through rigs, barely missing most of them. He goes to cross the trail behind me on a pretty off camber spot and I STILL have no clue how the roll cage on that thing didn't touch my back end. Several people including one of his passengers were yelling at him to stop because he was going to hit me, didn't phase him. A little while later down the trail, here comes world class j*$ass again behind us. We all pulled off out of the way to let him through. Although he had plenty of room, he proceeded to tell us where to move to so he could get by. REALLY???? I almost lost it.................

The people up there who were owners of their UTV/ATV's were quite courteous and I'd share the trail with them any day. But this rental guy in particular is the perfect example problems this is going to cause. I didn't make it to MSV that day like I was planning, even though it was open when we finally got down off T33, but I plan to run it soon, and then probably not again until the rentals close up for the season. I can already see issues like Paul was describing happening with these people and I do not have the patience for blatant disregard for others and/or our trails. The only way they should be allowed to operate is with a guide that can babysit them and make sure they're displaying proper ettiquette and respect.

[newracer]

I totally get it.
But I still lean to the need for them to have more requirments.
These machines have no yearly inspections, no emissions testing, no drivers license requirments, and no plate to allow other users a way to report there miss use and actions.
We have a plate that can be used to track down the S!*# Birds who do damage or off off trail behavior And I guarantee you that the ATV proud uses that plate to report people.
The fact is out in the rampart range they have kill one another with there high speed stupidness.
You don't see that kind of behavior in our part of the community.

The OHV sticker has a unique number on it that can be used as identification.

[Java]

Turns out this is not new, found posts back to 2006 about it including these:

http://www.bouldercounty.org/apps/newsarchive/templates/bc12.aspx?articleid=1803&zoneid=2

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?91802-So-is-Bunce-School-the-next-to-shut-down-(&

Apparently this is handled by the Boulder Ranger District and people have complained, doesn't seem to have worked. I'd skip the Rangers and dig right at the source, nothing gets action like a shot to the wallet. I couldn't find any videos pr photos of bad riding or damage, but if there are any, finding out where they were rented and posting a review with evidence on Yelp is a sledgehammer for small business. Bad Yelp reviews (that are honest) of the rentals would get more attention and reaction from the rental operator than complaining to the rangers, and video evidence would be hard to argue against. I'm going through this with my business, a major competitor got a few bad reviews this past month and my phone has been ringing all day as a result.

[Brucker]

What about people who hike, bike, camp, and ride horses?

Yes, they would be the 'others'.

Yes, the owners of the rental companies should be held liable. Yes, it may suck now that the beautiful trail could get a LOT busier. Will I frequent the trail as often as I used to? Probably not. But we need to face facts. The population on the Front Range has exploded. EVERYWHERE is getting busier. Sure, some may not like it, but it's happened/happening and we need to deal with it because it's not going away.

Plain and simple, the country was founded on freedom and the pursuit of happiness. As long as an individual is not breaking the law, they should be allowed to do as they please. This includes sharing the great outdoors with everyone else. Yes each specific group will have a few asshats (yes, even in our community), but that is what the law is for. Taking down plate/tag numbers and reporting them is all that can be done. We have to hop that the law will come through. But limited certain groups based on the stupid actions of a few is not the way to solve things. We do not take away everyone's vehicles because a few can't handle driving. We do not outlaw alcohol based on a few of those how can't handle liquor. And we sure as hell should restrict anyone's access to the great outdoors, based solely on the stupidity of a few others.

Crap, now I am starting to make things sound like the gun owner thread. Of course, this whole thread is really about politics, and I thought those weren't allowed on here...

Should we hide this discussion from the masses as well???

[Brucker]

You don't see that kind of behavior in our part of the community.

You didn't see the large photos right above your post??? EVERY community has an asshat or two. We aren't special...

[Chris]

EVERY community has an asshat or two. We aren't special...

Agreed. We need to take the high road, educate the ignorant and carry on. Life and everything about it changes, some for the better, some for the worse. So be it.

[Brucker]

Stolen for the Stay The Trail FB page. I thought this was fitting:

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13528801_10154414136971337_9171103204206668267_n.j pg?oh=5c5f55127efa8b7d8615d4ef2d493774&oe=580448A3

Of course they are missing a few, aren't they Max ;)

[newracer]

It appears that the full size vehicle is running portal axles.

[Brucker]

It appears that the full size vehicle is running portal axles.

So if you aren't running portals you don't have to stay the trail?

[newracer]

So if you aren't running portals you don't have to stay the trail?

The decal on the STT truck.

[BLOODBANE]

The tougher the trail, the less you see of the ATVers/UTVers. Ive only seen a few down in Indy and none on Carnage. This is unfortunate, because most people are not equiped/built enough for these type of trails (Im not for Indy either, but I went anyways).
I do agree that the outdoors should be open to anyone who wishes to explore it, but like has been said, once the renter gets on a go anywhere, do anything machine, they think its allowed (kinda the same thing as flashing down in New Orleans, people do it, but its still against the law). I have seen other wheelers (none from our groups) tear the heck out of some trails and just leave like nothing was done.

I dont have the answers to fix these uneducated people, but groups like this are one answer to education. we all believe in stay the trail/pack out what you pack in, so thats a start.

[Brucker]

The decal on the STT truck.

I know... was an unfunny attempt at humor on my part...

[newracer]

Now I get it.

[mrwildebeast]

I thought i needed to chip in here,

As someone who previously lived in england, my first few trips to Moab necessitated renting a Jeep, I took my Jeep, we ran Onion creek shafer switchbacks, secret spire. we worked up to fins and things on our 2nd / 3rd trip. The guys at Cliffhanger where we rented, suggested trails based on our experience, which we followed.

Now I have my own rig ( see profile ) and as an engineer enjoyed all of the mod work and now i run that thing and care for it, i've run lots of hard running trails, based on experience i started to gain in a rental, everyone has to start somewhere.

What i'm trying to say is its about the person not the jeep, rental or otherwise, same as guns.

I can also say, i'm considerably more cautious running my own rig with $65K of skin in it.

[dieseldoc]

I can also say, i'm considerably more cautious running my own rig with $65K of skin in it.

And there is the difference between the Griswalds and the local community.
They rent as it's a trip away from home to someone else backyard.
They trash it and leave without concerns about the impact of There behavior.
This is why I have issues with the rentals not being a supervised trip by the rental company.

As most folks don't get it pack out what you packed in and stay the trail!

[Jim]

We need to take the high road, educate the ignorant and carry on.

:thunb:

[dieseldoc]

Agree with you Jim fully.
Yet how do we educate a foo lthat is here for a 3 day trip from some othe state!

We have stopped many a time and had polite coversation whit people shooting, off trail, or leaving things in poor condition.
To see them continue said behavior as we drove by not an hour later.
Seems that in till they get a ticket for the said behavior things won't change.
So here we are left cleaning up the mess, paying for a trail to be rehabed, bladed or some form of FS involvment.
I get it really I do all should be able to use the public lands. Yet should we all suffer for some asshat who has no respect for such freedoms. I think not.
Some form of consequence should befall the asshat.

[Brian]

Unfortunately there's no asshat filter to eliminate them from the herd. No matter what their method of conveyance there are just some people who genuinely just don't give a damn. You can talk (educate) 'till you're blue in the face and they'll just shrug and carry on with their bad behavior. Can't really do much about that.

:2c:

[TJS86TOY]

Wow, all the hate. I have been in the 4wheeling game for 20+ years , riding dirtbikes for longer. I bought a ATV 2 years ago so I could explore areas faster and hit some single track trails. Rainbow falls makes me sick to my stomach when I went there this year and saw all of the damage, trash and the completely idiotic riders there, in short I will never go there again. But to Label ATV users is to label all OHV users, yes there are a LOT of jerks out there on ATV's but ALSO in 4x4's! So in general if you label me, as a ATV user inconsiderate, rude, making bypasses etc.. I will have no part of this group! Oh, and by the way, when I go ATV'ing I pick up trash and just over the 4th weekend cleared a tree blocking a trail that ATV's made a bypass around AND blocked the bypass with the cut up downed tree!! So please go ahead categorize me, label me and condemn me!

[dieseldoc]

TJ you are a local and a far more different user than the asshat grisswalds who come here rent an ATV and trash the trails.

[Brucker]

Wow, all the hate. I have been in the 4wheeling game for 20+ years , riding dirtbikes for longer. I bought a ATV 2 years ago so I could explore areas faster and hit some single track trails. Rainbow falls makes me sick to my stomach when I went there this year and saw all of the damage, trash and the completely idiotic riders there, in short I will never go there again. But to Label ATV users is to label all OHV users, yes there are a LOT of jerks out there on ATV's but ALSO in 4x4's! So in general if you label me, as a ATV user inconsiderate, rude, making bypasses etc.. I will have no part of this group! Oh, and by the way, when I go ATV'ing I pick up trash and just over the 4th weekend cleared a tree blocking a trail that ATV's made a bypass around AND blocked the bypass with the cut up downed tree!! So please go ahead categorize me, label me and condemn me!

Whoa, please slow your roll. You are rightfully upset by some of the views expressed in this thread. But to lump all the members of this forum together into one category (against atv's) is wrong. After all, aren't you upset about getting 'categorized and condemned" as a group? Honestly, there is a lot of support here for atv's and all other outdoor activities. Some members even posted their support already in this thread. So please, don't give up on us all for the actions/views of a few.

As was stated earlier, "We need to take the high road, educate the ignorant, and carry on".

[Brad]

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. As it is we are in a constant battle to keep trails open, I know several people who work very hard on everyone's behalf. Having said that I have witnessed more poor behavior from the ATV/UTV crowd than the 4x4 or dirt bike crowd with one exception of a couple of teenagers dusting and spitting rocks at us during trail clean up. I don't lump them in with all dirt bike riders based on that. We all need to work harder to get along.

[TJS86TOY]

Whoa, please slow your roll. You are rightfully upset by some of the views expressed in this thread. But to lump all the members of this forum together into one category (against atv's) is wrong. After all, aren't you upset about getting 'categorized and condemned" as a group? Honestly, there is a lot of support here for atv's and all other outdoor activities. Some members even posted their support already in this thread. So please, don't give up on us all for the actions/views of a few.

Aaron, you're rite, I unjustly lumped the community together as ATV haters, sorry for that. I was not in the best mood yesterday and when I read the comments It reminded me of all of the same stuff I have read on so many message boards for so many years. To me it's the same ol garbage, ATV riders hate 4x4's , Dirtbikers hate ATV's , 4x4's hate bikes and atv's , coloradoans hate texans , so on so on. I am in no way saying I am the example, but I do pull over for a group of 4x4's when on the ATV because I am a lot smaller and it's much more simpler for me to get out of the way than them, even if I have the uphill row.

I don't want to drag this on however Im sorry for the comment. It just strikes a nerve because I see the same thing on the trail, weather it be a 4x4 giving me a dirty look while im on the ATV or a ATV'er giving me a dirty look when im in the 4runner. I digress, educating the ignorant is sometimes an insurmountable task with heavy implementation burden!

[newracer]

I was on MSV-Coney today and hardly saw another person. On our way out we took Bunce from Camp Dick out to Highway 72 since my tow rig and trailer were parked where FS Rd 217 comes out at the highway. We saw numerous rental quads and side by sides. Most were driving careful but you could easily tell they half scared. Coming down 217 towards the highway we came to a line of 6-8 quads coming in the opposite direction. Right as the lead rider pulled to the side and slowed while we approached each other a lady third in line darted out to pass the other two and almost hit me head on. The only reason she didn't was because I slammed on my brakes and stopped. I don't think she even saw me as it appeared she was looking at the ground about 5-10 feet in front of her.

On a somewhat related note, Bunce is a disaster area, especially where people have been shooting. It is appalling.

[Jim]

I understand your POV with respect to your attitude of being lumped together. Thumbs up for a well rounded post.



I digress, educating the ignorant is sometimes an insurmountable task with heavy implementation burden!

Though we'll all keep towing the heavy line.

[Java]

IDK if there is any point to "educating" people on the trail unless you like getting solo activity suggestions (go .... yourself). Just take video, get plates, and send it to the rangers, no ideology required.

[TJS86TOY]

Though we'll all keep towing the heavy line.

You got that rite!