Lawsuit forces seasonal road closures in Pike-San Isabel

[Tom]

Story here

http://m.theflume.com/mobile/free_content/article_6bc0cbf8-cdf9-11e6-94af-4bc1ddaf5394.html (http://m.theflume.com/mobile/free_content/article_6bc0cbf8-cdf9-11e6-94af-4bc1ddaf5394.html)

[Tom]

"On the east side, FSRs 140, 844 and 845 southeast of Jefferson close Jan. 1 - June 15, as do FSRs 204 and 212 near Spruce Grove campground and FSRs 142 (and spurs) and 143 north of Tarryall Reservoir."

I believe 204 and 212 are China Wall. We'll have to find a new location for the anniversary run.

[FINOCJ]

I agree with you Tom - 204 and 212 are the two parts of china wall. 212 is the main portion that goes to the right (east) as you are headed in and goes to the 'wall' obstacle and dead ends down by the creek. 204 is the fork to the left (north). Too bad - as its one of the few trails that is fun in the winter months for those of us who don't wan't to snow bash and winch all day.

[Jim]

If the Anniversary Run takes place at the same time - what alternative trails come to mind?

[FINOCJ]

If the Anniversary Run takes place at the same time - what alternative trails come to mind?

Maybe some options on the south end of RRR near Woodland Park - like balanced rock, schubarth, rainbow falls area. Nothing particularly as fun or technical as China Wall, but would probably be reasonably free of snow unless a spring storm happens through at the wrong time. Slaughterhouse might also be an option?

Would think there might be some options up north that might not be snow covered - those in the FoCo area can maybe help out with that?

[Tom]

Maybe some options on the south end of RRR near Woodland Park - like balanced rock, schubarth, rainbow falls area. Nothing particularly as fun or technical as China Wall, but would probably be reasonably free of snow unless a spring storm happens through at the wrong time. Slaughterhouse might also be an option?

Would think there might be some options up north that might not be snow covered - those in the FoCo area can maybe help out with that?
Slaughterhouse is part of these closures or possibly some other closures. Closed from Jan 1 thru April 1. Saw posts and pics of sign on FB today, same group as posted my original link.

[FINOCJ]

Just to post as much info as possible - straight copy from Tom's original link above:

In Park County, roads in the Morrison-based South Platte district, including Forest Service Roads 126, 809, 810 and their spurs near the top of Kenosha Pass, and FSRs 101 and 105 in the Slaughterhouse Gulch area, will be closed Jan. 1 - May 15.
In South Park, seasonal closures on the west side of the district include roads northeast of Jefferson Lake Recreation Area near the Kenosha Pass summit, which are closed Jan. 15 - May 15.
Closed Jan. 1 - June 15, are Beaver Creek, Crooked Creek, all forest roads and trails in the Horseshoe/Fourmile area including Breakneck and Browns passes and all forest roads east of Buffalo Peaks Wilderness.
On the east side, FSRs 140, 844 and 845 southeast of Jefferson close Jan. 1 - June 15, as do FSRs 204 and 212 near Spruce Grove campground and FSRs 142 (and spurs) and 143 north of Tarryall Reservoir.
FSR 237 in the Packer Gulch area closes March 1 - June 15, and, in the southern end of the county, roads south of Dicks Creek and north of Black Mountain are closed Jan. 1 - June 1.
In the Colorado Springs-based Pikes Peak district, FSR 376-A in Teller County, is closed Dec. 1 - March 31.

[dieseldoc]

Bummer.....
Well Mettberry can be mostly snow fee all winter, cedar Mr. road is a fun time as well.
This also give the bigger more experienced trucks some options as well.
Longwater, Hackett, and now Prediter clutches.

[Bob]

From the link, the stated goal of the motorized closures is to not disturb elk and deer in the winter months when food is scarce and they are calving. But, the closures allow snow machines - how does that make any sense? Did I miss something?

[newracer]

They also still allow hikers. The most disturbing thing to big game is a hiker with a dog.

[96EXXLTinCO]

I'll have to look over what all was included the closures, but I'm sure I can help find a replacement location for the anniversary run. Phantom Creek NW of divide comes to mind if it's not included in the closure, not sure if Rainbow Falls area is, but mini-moab would give the bigger rigs a chance to play and show off their stuff. We've been playing around the Springs area off Old Stage Rd. Snow has stopped us on nearly every trail, just too many places to slide off. If I come up with any suitable replacements, I'll post em back up here.

[Jim]

Anniversary runs happen, typically, in March. I asked Chris what date comes to mind and he said March 8. That nails down the general "when", now we just need "where".

[Chris]

We originally chose China Wall because it was stocker friendly with optional obstacles for folks wanting a bit of a challenge along with being a fairly equal distance for Denver & Colorado Springs folks. The location worked but not real well for folks up North. :2c:

Also, our intent was mostly directed to a social event vs a wheeling event.

[White Stripe]

It's ridiculous. Many here have lived in the mountains and know how deer and elk react to vehicles in winter or summer. Said vehicle comes along, deer or elk looks up and watches, sometimes they trot like 10 feet away from the trail, and then continue eating or pooping or whatever they were doing. I feel sorry for the fish and game having to deal with people making huge issues out of nothing. I got a better idea for the environmental groups, why don't they stop the salt brine being dumped on roads by the dot-freshwater fish don't handle salt real well, and neither does my 4runner.

[dieseldoc]

This is yet more of our government over stepping its power.
Yet it's also an example of the public letting government dictate to us.

I sure wish more folks would get informed and armed with the proper knoladge of how our govern ment is realy spossed to work.


Here are a few things everyone need to read, memorize and use!

Linky thingy:

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/00A_EC_-_INST_-_Traffic_Stop_Practice_Script_v04.03.2013-001_(Justified).pdf

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/00A_EC_-_INST_-_Cross_Examination_Practice_Script_v03.19.2013-001.pdf


Also look up prof of jurisdiction.

You will have your mind blown.

[White Stripe]

The idea I got was a bunch of environmental groups heard a couple hikers yell because they were pissed that a truck drove by in the middle of the woods and interrupted their "I'm in the woods to let my feelings out" time for about 60 seconds. So they drama queened and came up with a reason why a vehicle is nuking the forest because it idles by at 10mph and the environmental groups listened, threatened the government's hand with a huge lawsuit, and the forest service caved since they are already strapped for cash and resources. I've seen those hikers on the trail. I've also seen hikers when disaster strikes and they can't make it out on foot and if it wasn't for a 4x4 driving by they would be coyote meat. Actually they would be Popsicles first as their was snow and it was 11k feet elevation, so they would be coyote Popsicles I guess. They sure didn't have a problem with our trucks then when we gave them a lift back to safety.

[dieseldoc]

Exactly what is wrong in this country.
Politically correct should never have been introduced.
We have created a situation where everyone's feelings are hurt I need this or that....
Not teaching how to deal with life and things that will happen.

Oh I need a safe place someone yelled at me.....
God forbid

Ya some hiker cried and now we the people cannot use our public lands from x date to x date....

[Chris]

This is no different than our adopted trails (Barbour Fork & Devil's Canyon) that are seasonally closed because they're Elk calving areas. Not the big deal some make it out to be, it's not like it's being closed permanently or the only trails in the area.

I doubt the story about "a couple hikers" White Stripe. Sounds like a simplistic explanation of what's probably a complex situation. Every group that uses a multi-use trail has stories about how damaging the other groups are...

[Jim]

So.... What alternate trails come to mind? Let's stir that pot...

[dieseldoc]

I thi,k the 4 clutches of ceder my. road are a good place to go.
There are a few great spots for everyone to get together, eat and chill.
As well as many options for play time.
I know it's not a good option for the folks from foco, but China wall wasn't Close for them eather.

Yankee hill is getting lots of snow snow, so by March it will be even deeper.

Pickle will be snowed over as well.
Been a few trips we couldn't get up the first climb.

Bunce, Ironclad could be good times.

[White Stripe]

I didn't read a ton about it. So I could have details wrong. What I did read was concern of disturbing elk and deer during winter and that if they run from vehicles on a trail in the woods that it would cause them to burn precious winter calories and food is scarce. That is what a wildlife biologist was quoted as saying basically. I also read on one of the environmental group sites a few hikers were quoted in a article praising their groups lawsuit victory saying they were glad to have peace and quiet again in the areas they like to hike because those areas are getting less and less and we need to protect the wilderness. Which I agree the wilderness should be protected, it seems from what I read though that their were no legit reason to conclude the motor vehicles were causing a issue. But maybe I didn't read enough articles. I have a short attention span.

[White Stripe]

Pickle? What trail is that? Never heard of it??
I thi,k the 4 clutches of ceder my. road are a good place to go.
There are a few great spots for everyone to get together, eat and chill.
As well as many options for play time.
I know it's not a good option for the folks from foco, but China wall wasn't Close for them eather.

Yankee hill is getting lots of snow snow, so by March it will be even deeper.

Pickle will be snowed over as well.
Been a few trips we couldn't get up the first climb.

Bunce, Ironclad could be good times.

[Chris]

So.... What alternate trails come to mind? Let's stir that pot...

Along with the other reasons I mentioned for choosing China Wall was the fact that it's usually clearer than other trails in March. We have to keep going west to find something with similar snow conditions.

It may be more sensible to consider a different date than a different trail.

[Chris]

Pickle? What trail is that? Never heard of it??

Pickle Gulch - http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=47

[dieseldoc]

Chris- change the date may be the better option.

[Java]

Along with the other reasons I mentioned for choosing China Wall was the fact that it's usually clearer than other trails in March. We have to keep going west to find something with similar snow conditions.

It may be more sensible to consider a different date than a different trail.

This. Probably get a better turnout too. Is there a date you have in mind?

edit- if we change the date what about Barbour Fork or Devil's Canyon? Both have some nice big areas...

[Jim]

I'd be open to a date change.

Pickle Gulch (`don't think I've ever been on it) / Barbour Fork / Devil's Canyon all seem decent to me.

As for when - sometime school's out, possibly after the spring wet (though not terribly necessary) but before afternoon rain clouds???? Late June / Early July but not July 4 weekend???

[Chris]

I like early March since it can provide interesting weather and trail conditions but I think keeping it at China Wall on a different date might make more sense. That being said I'm stepping out of this discussion since I might not be healed enough to drive by Spring.
:brody:

[dieseldoc]

Chris we all hope you can make it.

I think it's poll time

[Chris]

Thanks Brandon, me too!

[FINOCJ]

Re: anniversary run - I really enjoy China Wall trail. Think it fits the needs of both being stock capable with a few optional spots to let the modified rigs have fun. As for the time of year, there are not many trails that would be all that doable in March. I am not much of a snow wheeler, and if its cold or wintery, I think its difficult to have the social side of the run as well. So I guess I am leaning support to moving the anniversary run to later in the year and keeping it at China Wall.

That being said, the March anniversary run is a good reason to actually get the old jeep out at a time of the year when I would normally be doing winter snow activities. So its kind of a nice change up weekend to do something different and start looking forward to the summer wheeling season - but seems like the choice of trails is going to be really limited. And I think a lot of us with old iron or more stock and moderate type vehicles are not that excited to go snow bashing with a winchfest. I guess Metberry Gulch is a possibility, but even that could be a bit difficult for some stockers with snow? I am thinking of the long uphill on the way out right after the rock slab - old pass patrol books used to call it chicken scratch hill - seem like that is a likely place for winching and it might be nice for a large anniversary run to avoid that need. LW gulch is easy except for the rock slab - again another highly likey winch spot and possibly treacherous with snow even on a winch.

I guess I am suggesting keeping it pretty easy for a March anniversary run. For southern options, still thinking the Mt Herman, Balance Rock, Schubarth areas on the southern end of RRR. I don't know the northern trails very well, and especially what is open at that time of year or how snow conditions would generally be, but seems Bunce could be an option? More rambling thoughts...I really enjoy the clean-up runs for BF and DC - they have quite a social aspect to them. I could see doing the anniversary run when DC and BF open up as part of spring clean-up. But since we already have those, keeping the anniversary run separate would be my preference. JMO...

[JandDGreens]

I like China wall because of the wide open area that people can set-up/camp in (it really is the perfect location for the Anv.-Run). I really have a hard time with them closing these trails, especially with this one. I am not much for snow wheeling but do like to get out once or twice to break the cabin fever.

[Jackie]

I think I vote for an April date and on a different trail if necessary. Johnny Pk Rd. would be a good one. Lots of room to park (camp) and not too difficult. Estes Park isn't far away if anyone wants to meet up after the run.

[Tom]

I think I vote for an April date and on a different trail if necessary. Johnny Pk Rd. would be a good one. Lots of room to park (camp) and not too difficult. Estes Park isn't far away if anyone wants to meet up after the run.
Johnny Park doesn't open until June.

[Jim]

A recap of trails mentioned in this thread (as of this post - Jan 9, 2017)

China Wall (the original trail)

North
Bunce School Road / Ironclads
Johnny Park (closed until June)

Mid / I-70
Pickle Gulch
Yankee Hill
Barbour Fork
Devil's Canyon
Slaughterhouse

South (I think the items below would be "south")
Metberry Gulch
Cedar Mt. Road
Longwater Gulch
Hackett Gulch
Prediter ????????????
Phantom Creek
mini-moab
Mt Herman
Balanced Rock
Schubarth area
Rainbow Falls area

[Jim]

It's been a month and it's time to firm up. Via the Poll, "Same time (approx Mar 8) / Different trail" was the result.

Let's decide upon a trail.

[Jackie]

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=47

Lots of fun! be prepared to get a little turned around. (I get lost on that one). Great trail though! Not difficult.

[Tom]

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=47

Lots of fun! be prepared to get a little turned around. (I get lost on that one). Great trail though! Not difficult.
Lots of snow! Was closed due to snow in early june in 2016

[Stu]

Rainbow falls area with Illinois Gulch and Missouri Gulch would be fun. Could set up BBQ at Moab hill and play on that obstacle. Or Pickle Gulch would be fun too.

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=222
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=219

[xaza]

Rainbow falls area with Illinois Gulch and Missouri Gulch would be fun. Could set up BBQ at Moab hill and play on that obstacle. Or Pickle Gulch would be fun too.

There is a large parking area with restrooms(IIRC) at the beginning of the Missouri Gulch trail North side. Fun set of trails I don't recall ever having a winchfest at.

Is the intent to find 3-4 trails that conditions are good and then run another poll to select trail?

[FINOCJ]

My main vote would be for anything other than a winchfest! Think Pickle would be winchfest. Illinois and Missouri would be fine...maybe options up north like Bunce or something?

[TJS86TOY]

Anything above 10,000 feet I think might be too deep in snow to have a fun time without winching. I tend to side with Stu and Cliff on the Rainbow falls area as well as the Gulches, cedar etc. I do like little Moab, Illinois and the others. Also Like Hackett and the others. No question there is plenty to do in that givin area for all skill levels and rig levels. The only foreseeable issue with Rainbow falls is it is Soooooo busy with all kinds of OHV's , sometimes is madness.

Just curious, has anyone actually been to China to see if it's closed?

[Jim]

Just curious, has anyone actually been to China to see if it's closed?

If someone could check - that'd be nice.

As for which region, while I'm up north and Bunce/Ironclads are perhaps the trails of choice, I think I'd go for something down south to perhaps have better weather / lower snowpack. IMO - let's focus on the down south trails and pick one of them (perhaps China Wall will not be closed????).

[Java]

We'd need to get OHV stickers for this area, but the Fourmile area in Buena Vista has quite a bit of it that doesn't close and is a lot of fun. http://garna.org/friends-of-fourmile/

Both of these are stocker friendly and open:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJ7Ef916io
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd0ZEi7TzWI

The circles on the map are seasonal gates, the other areas are open.



Fourmile Map (http://garna.org/2013/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Fourmile-Map-pdf.pdf)

[Jim]

OK Folks - we need to select a new trail for the Anniversary Run (at least for this season). I'm not familiar with the down south trails - and those are likely the preferred choice for lower snowpack and warmer temps in early to mid March.

Please reference the trails list I made in post #35 in this thread:
http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?25429-Lawsuit-forces-seasonal-road-closures-in-Pike-San-Isabel&p=310136#post310136

I would like a couple folks to look at that list and clean it up (if it needs to be cleaned / condensed). Once we have a concise list I'll make a poll and we can vote for a trail. A poll can have a max of 10 choices.

[dieseldoc]

The little Moab area co7or he fun.
But the cedar mt rd, and the 4 gultches has something for every one. There is a very big medow the we could set up in, even fresh water near by, as well as large flats area for us all to s3t up to eat!

[Jim]

I'm closing this thread. Please gather in the new trail selection thread:

Trail Forum > Trail Run Planning > 2017 Anniversary Run - Trail selection

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?25537