Pay-to-Play Trails??

[Java]

This is making the rounds online, sorry if it's on here already. I'd like to see some evidence of the use of funds- they say it's to "build, maintain and ensure continued access" and I'd like to see some evidence of that happening over the last couple of years before I pay. I don't mean that as a confrontation, I'd just like to see it. Anyone know of any actual use of these funds?


www.staythetrail.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=266593&module_id=247561


"In addition to the many miles of Off-Highway Vehicle trails and ‘roads open to all vehicles’, there are a number of Full Size Trails open for recreational travel in Colorado. Although these trails allow for full width vehicles, they differ from most BLM and U.S. Forest Service roads as they are designed for recreational, motorized use rather than simply for transportation. A Colorado Off-Highway Vehicle Permit (http://www.staythetrail.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=266593&module_id=228438) is therefore required on any licensed/plated vehicle that is used for recreation on these trails. This $25.25 permit must be displayed on any full size vehicle traveling these trails even if that vehicle has a currently registered license plate from Colorado or any other state.

The funds collected from the sale of these OHV permits is used to build, maintain, and ensure the continued access to these trails for motorized and non-motorized users. A list of full size routes which hold a ‘trail’ designation in Colorado can be found in this brochure. However, it is always recommended to contact the local land management office with questions regarding any specific trail and any current closures or restrictions that may be in place.

Visit the Colorado Parks & Wildlife (http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/RegistrationsOHV.aspx) website to read more information on how to purchase OHV registrations and permits, and the projects that the OHV Registration program funds, call (303) 791-1920, or visit one of the OHV Registration Locations (http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/OHV-RegistrationLocations.aspx)."

[newracer]

I personally helped get a grant from this fund for work on Kelly Flats that was in excess of $55,000.

I know Trailridge Runners have helped obtain grants for work on Lefthand Canyon and Middle St Vrain/Coney Flats.

[newracer]

Past grants can be viewed here

http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/TrailsGrantsOHVApps.aspx

I know you will say that most of them are for motorcycle and ATV trails but historically that is who paid into the program and who applied fro grants. When I worked on getting the grant for Kelly Flats the first thing the committee asked me was how many people in my club had OHV permits. I had to answer that it was very few. They responded with how can they ethically give money to a group that does not support the very fund it is requesting money from. They had a very good point.

[Java]

I'd pay it just for Middle St.Vrain / Coney Flats, that's one of my favorite runs. I'm going to buy one, hopefully some of it will go to reopening Lefthand!!

Thanks for the info! :thumb:

[Spieg]

Would like to see a map showing the fee areas. Hancock Pass Trail for example, is a pretty long trail with multiple spur trails. If you consider it to start near St Elmo, then you would need a permit to get to Grizzly Lake, Iron Chest, Pomeroy, etc... even though those trails are not on the list.

[Java]

And Tincup is on the list, so to do the loop you'd need the sticker. I bet that's for all the ATVs there. I'm surprised the Alpine Loop isn't on the list, Engineer and Cinnamon are clearly recreational...?

[dscowell]

So what I got from reading this is that only some trails require a permit right? I'd say if anyone plans a trail run on one of these trails it would be appropriate to let the people going know that the permit is required so no one shows up with out one.

[Jim]

Engineer and Cinnamon are clearly recreational...

IMO - Engineer originated as a mining route and is not a recreational trail. While many may consider it recreational today - its origin is key.

[Chris]

IMO - Engineer originated as a mining route and is not a recreational trail. While many may consider it recreational today - its origin is key.

That would apply to lots of our trails, right? Is this different than what was flying around the web a couple years back?

[JandDGreens]

So this is a yearly fee right? I always thought it would be a good idea to be able to support what we do up there financially. Thanks for bringing this up.

[JandDGreens]

I went ahead and called to ask about it. And as of 5 years ago licensed vehicle on trails open to atv's and such require a pass and 3 years ago they started enforcing it.

[Jim]

What entity controls / owns the land these trails are on? Is this public land?

I'm not implying "no way to fees", but rather simply curious. What makes these trails different from others?

[Stu]

I had no idea this requirement existed. I've run a number of those trails in the past year or two, even run into forest rangers on a couple of them and they never mentioned my lack of an OHV sticker.

[newracer]

So this is a yearly fee right? I always thought it would be a good idea to be able to support what we do up there financially. Thanks for bringing this up.
Yes yearly MArch to March


I went ahead and called to ask about it. And as of 5 years ago licensed vehicle on trails open to atv's and such require a pass and 3 years ago they started enforcing it.
This is not correct. For example ATVs are allowed on Kelly Flats and you do not need a OHV permit on a licensed vehicle on Kelly Flats. Only the trails listed.



What entity controls / owns the land these trails are on? Is this public land?

I'm not implying "no way to fees", but rather simply curious. What makes these trails different from others?
They are all on BLM or Grand Mesa Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forest land.

Basically these are "trails" that are not forest service roads or county roads.

Enforcement has been slow and inconsistent so far but I expect it to ramp up with the latest press release.

[JandDGreens]

I just don't want to hassle with worrying if I am going to be harassed or not and $25.25 to me is fair way to help keep trails open. They said 5 years ago it was supposed to be implemented but I think they would only were warning (educate) people for the past couple of years and probably only citing people going off trails or being disrespectful on the trails.
But it clearly states as of January 1 2017 it is required.

[dieseldoc]

hmmm.....more fees to use wthe land...hmmmm

[Spieg]

I wish the funds were guaranteed to go toward keeping trails open, rather than closing trails and lobbying for more money.

[JandDGreens]

Well it just makes me wonder if the same goes for others states. As people from out of state will also tech. need this permit for many of the trails up here.

[cornpone99]

Thanks for the heads up. I will definitely be getting a sticker. I already have to for the Atv's.

[dieseldoc]

not so sure about this, last I knew once you get OHV sticker it can be driven on the stret.
Am so confussed by this

[Java]

I'm OK paying as long as I know the money is going to Colorado's trails, whatever trails. :thumb:

[Chris]

I just don't want to hassle with worrying if I am going to be harassed or not and $25.25 to me is fair way to help keep trails open. They said 5 years ago it was supposed to be implemented but I think they would only were warning (educate) people for the past couple of years and probably only citing people going off trails or being disrespectful on the trails.
But it clearly states as of January 1 2017 it is required.

After reading the page linked I agree, $25.25 isn't an outrageous fee and I'll pay without complaint.

[The StRanger]

I had no idea this requirement existed. I've run a number of those trails in the past year or two, even run into forest rangers on a couple of them and they never mentioned my lack of an OHV sticker.

X2. Never been asked ....

[husky390]

If you have a sticker on your ATV, you cannot legally ride on the street.

I already pay these fees for my offroad vehicles and don't mind buying another one for my Jeep. They have done a stellar job with the Rampart Range OHV area.

[newracer]

Actually the law recently changed and some counties allow OHVs on the roads.

http://www.staythetrail.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=266593&item_id=33213

[JandDGreens]

Yeah just go down to Ouray area some of those towns allow ATV's

[Hypoid]

I personally helped get a grant from this fund for work on Kelly Flats that was in excess of $55,000.


When I worked on getting the grant for Kelly Flats the first thing the committee asked me was how many people in my club had OHV permits. I had to answer that it was very few. They responded with how can they ethically give money to a group that does not support the very fund it is requesting money from. They had a very good point.

It looks like you were able to identify some common ground. Thanks for representing our community!

[Brad]

I really don't mind getting the sticker. If helping fill some coffers helps stay the trail and keeps trails open I am more than happy to pay.

[newracer]

It looks like you were able to identify some common ground. Thanks for representing our community!

I think if I was able to say that a larger percentage of the users had the OHV permits they would have given more money. The grant application was for about $150,000 in total.

[Hypoid]

I think if I was able to say that a larger percentage of the users had the OHV permits they would have given more money. The grant application was for about $150,000 in total.The more I think about this, the more I compare it to having the Colorado Parks Pass. Sure, you can camp in the National Forest for free (most places), but you need to pony up for State Parks.

The upside of more 4WD vehicles buying OHV permits, is increased representation by demographic. I'd call that a win for everybody.

[Chris]

Actually the law recently changed and some counties allow OHVs on the roads.

http://www.staythetrail.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=266593&item_id=33213

Thanks for the link, full information and educating us Michael. :thumb:

[dieseldoc]

I would get this to but I am still super confused about it, as once a OHV sticker is applied the thing can't be street driven! Has this been addressed someplace I missed!

[newracer]

For licensed vehicle you can still drive on the street. You need the OHV permit to drive on the 61 listed trails, licensed or not.

In some counties the OHV permit will allow you to drive an un-licensed vehicle on the street.

[dieseldoc]

hmm......

[Hypoid]

once a OHV sticker is applied the thing can't be street driven!This logic does not compute...

https://johnkennethmuir.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/lostinspace2.jpg

[Spieg]

I've been looking closely for a sticker on any off-road looking vehicles I see parked around town and have not seen any of the 12 or so I've looked at. Guessing most people are not aware of this new requirement. Wonder if they will bother to put up some signs on the affected trails before they start writing tickets?

I think I'll just avoid those trails rather than buy a sticker (don't want to encourage another government money grab).

Funny thing is when looking for more info at the Parks and Wildlife website it states the provided list of trails may not be accurate and you should contact the local ranger office for more specific info. When I called the ranger yesterday to ask about Hancock Pass (and more specifically about Grizzly Lake and Iron Chest), the ranger was also unaware of any requirement for automobiles to be stickered..

[newracer]

It is not a government money grab. :bang:

[Mr6dwg]

Thank you for saying this.
I think I'll just avoid those trails rather than buy a sticker (don't want to encourage another government money grab). I was beginning to think I was the only one in the crowd. I have not seen any of those stickers, nor have I been on any road that I am aware of that I needed a sticker. I sure that somewhere along the way, there USED to be a tax that took care of our recreational fun on government property. But like everything else, it gets squandered away on "$200 toilet seats", and then the next day you get a group of people waiting at the gate with their hand out, explaining, and very eloquently I might add, about how I need to put in money to "keep the fun going". Pretty soon, I will just sell my Jeep and sit on the back porch; just like the gun laws. But "we" won't go there, huh.

[Chris]

Thank you for saying this. I was beginning to think I was the only one in the crowd. I have not seen any of those stickers, nor have I been on any road that I am aware of that I needed a sticker. I sure that somewhere along the way, there USED to be a tax that took care of our recreational fun on government property. But like everything else, it gets squandered away on "$200 toilet seats", and then the next day you get a group of people waiting at the gate with their hand out, explaining, and very eloquently I might add, about how I need to put in money to "keep the fun going". Pretty soon, I will just sell my Jeep and sit on the back porch; just like the gun laws. But "we" won't go there, huh.

Not a good idea, sounds like you need to express this on a politicsl forum. :tisktisk:

[Jim]

I think we're quite far away from the politics pole.

We're at reality and laws.

So, where does the money go / who controls the funds? So far I'm not hearing _how_ it is handled or _who_ handles it. Does it go into a general fund or does it go into a specific use fund - and if so - what is that definition?

[Java]

Colorado is a cool place. I grew up in NYC and lived in Miami and have no trust for government, but Colorado is different. Our senators from both sides are working together to protect our lands right now.

http://gazette.com/bennet-gardner-propose-fixes-to-public-lands-issues-in-colorado/article/1595901

If this is the leadership's view, I'm willing to take a $25.25 leap of faith on CPW, especially with what Newracer shared on the first page. :thumb:

Maybe we can apply for some grant money to improve the shooting area at Barbour?

[newracer]

I think we're quite far away from the politics pole.

We're at reality and laws.

So, where does the money go / who controls the funds? So far I'm not hearing _how_ it is handled or _who_ handles it. Does it go into a general fund or does it go into a specific use fund - and if so - what is that definition?

http://cpw.state.co.us/buyapply/Pages/RegistrationsOHV.aspx

Where the money goes: Benefits of the OHV Program

The Colorado OHV Registration Program fees fund trail maintenance, construction, trailheads, parking areas, trail signs, maps, and land acquisition. It also enables law enforcement personnel to identify and return stolen vehicles, encourages safe and responsible OHV use, and promotes respect for public lands.
Many groups benefit from OHV registration, including:



OHV owners and operators;
Towns and counties that want to attract OHV recreators to enhance their local economies; and ​
The general public; educated OHV enthusiasts are more conscientious and better stewards of the land.

Registration funds also enable local, state and federal land managers to better manage our natural resources.
Annually, this direct benefit to enthusiasts funds over $4 million in trail opportunities and improvements. Read more about the OHV grants program​​ (http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/TrailsGrantsOHV.aspx). ​
​ (https://www.co.wildlifelicense.com/)

Grant program that distributes the money

http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/TrailsGrantsOHV.aspx

Current and Past grants

http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/TrailsGrantsOHVApps.aspx

[Jim]

Thank you Michael,

I started poking through the links and will give them more time. I am cautious as to joining a bandwagon to give funds (blindly) to an entity I am uncertain of. I also don't wish such giving to expand into trails/areas not covered by the existing sticker. I imagine none would wish to have pay-to-play for Forest Service / public (our!) land.

Jim

[Chris]

I think we're quite far away from the politics pole.

I'll cede to your opinion Jim! I can't help pn your questions so I'm stepping out.

[Spieg]

It is not a government money grab. :bang:

Not sure what else to call it... When something was funded by tax dollars and those dollars get reallocated for another purpose, what would you call it?

[newracer]

Not sure what else to call it... When something was funded by tax dollars and those dollars get reallocated for another purpose, what would you call it?

Check out the links I posted above.