What defines a 4x4?

[Patrolman]

A friend asked me this once on a long trip through CanyonLands about 10 years ago. We tried to narrow it down to 1 single criteria. The only thing I could say is "a real 4x4 has a removeable roof". On the same note, a removeable roof doesn't make it a real 4x4 (example: Wife's Miata).

Any other thoughts? Can be an interesting discussion.

[DETN8R]

a transfercase?

[Patrolman]

Gee, thanks. My Subi had a t-case, but not sure that I would put it on par with a D90 or a H1. Looking for what people think makes a 4x4 a true "breed".

[gm4x4lover]

I think a suv or truck that has a transfer case with a high and low option. thats a tuff one to answer as some cj-7's had no low range ( auto with quadra track) or i had a turbo loyal thing with a high and low option. I would also say that the old loyals and brat's are more of a 4x4 than some of the new ones. aka rav4, crv, compass, patriot, santa fe to name a few.

[Patrolman]

Yeah, now you see where our conversation was going! That is why I made the statement that to be a real 4wd, the top has to come off. But just because the top comes off, it doesn't make it a real 4wd. Case in point with the CJ7 you mentioned. Some CJ7's didn't have a low tcase. That is really odd. I didn't know that was the case, so I learn something new every day!

[Chris]

to be a real 4wd, the top has to come off

I'm not buying that argument Jeff. My 62 isn't 4WD until I cut the roof off?

[4Runninfun]

i would say that to make something a true 4x4, that vehicle should be able to traverse the back country with confidence. back country implies that you don't know exactly what you're going to come across whether it be snow, mud, or rocks. for example my old subie is on the edge, i felt pretty confident but i knew the lack of ground clearance could easily leave me high-centered. So i usually only pushed it where i knew the terrain or i wasn't very far from home. On the other side i would certainly say my 4Runner even in stock form is a true 4x4. I feel confident taking that thing into the back-country knowing unless i do something stupid i'm driving back out.

[Pathrat]

Nay's response gets funny and clever points. :clap:

4runninfun's input is what I think of a 4x4. My old Exploder had a t-case, had both high and low gearing when engaged. I didn't know jack about it or cars and burned the thing out :oops:. I would not ever take that thing where I am going next week, ever. If we are not talking about a purely mechanical definition, such as x tires move at x rotations in relation to such gearing and two or three or all four tires are powering the vehicle and turning at the same time, when the moon is full over Iberia, etc etc, then the more esoteric and personal definition takes precedence. What do you do with your vehicle, and what do you want it to do when off pavement?

[BLOODBANE]

This is what I found(Wikipedia, I had to look)......
The term four-wheel drive describes truck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck)-like vehicles that require the driver to manually switch between two-wheel drive mode for streets and four-wheel drive mode for low traction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_%28engineering%29) conditions such as ice, mud, snow, slippery surfaces, or loose gravel.
Even your Subies and 4x4 cars can be grouped into this category. Just because you can't crawl the Independence Trail it would still help you(with the extra wheels pulling/pushing) get through a Colorado winter. For that matter the AWD would also fall into that category. Like I said, just because the wifes Pacifica won't ever be on Holy Cross, it would still be better in 1 foot of snow than a 2wheel drive(front or rear)car. IMO.........(beleive it or not I have thought about this all day....)

[Pathrat]

This is what I found(Wikipedia, I had to look)......
The term four-wheel drive describes truck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck)-like vehicles that require the driver to manually switch between two-wheel drive mode for streets and four-wheel drive mode for low traction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_%28engineering%29) conditions such as ice, mud, snow, slippery surfaces, or loose gravel.
Even your Subies and 4x4 cars can be grouped into this category. Just because you can't crawl the Independence Trail it would still help you(with the extra wheels pulling/pushing) get through a Colorado winter. For that matter the AWD would also fall into that category. Like I said, just because the wifes Pacifica won't ever be on Holy Cross, it would still be better in 1 foot of snow than a 2wheel drive(front or rear)car. IMO.........(beleive it or not I have thought about this all day....)

I think I read the same thing. The word traction is underlined, and the ability to manually switch modes, implying one is done to increase the other. By this definition, then how would AWD be included in this definition? You can't engage anything other than a lower gear. Your continued thoughts? :)

[BLOODBANE]

The improved traction of having all the wheels driven, is more of my point. I guess I should have said more along the lines of the improved traction(as you pointed out). I do know of a person wheeling a AWD Explorer(should be with us on the next Chinamans run in June). So even though he doesn't have to engage the extra axles, he is still a 4x4. Like I said I have thought about this all day(on and off) and everyone seems to classify them a little differently.
And for Nay's question, "What makes a 4x4 driver?" you have to be half nuts(mostly all the way at times), not afraid of body damage, be willing to spend 3 nights out in the boonies to "rescue" some guy that broke down on the trail in front of you(your friend), and spend more than the national deficit on the newest traction aid for your rig. Thats my thoughts. The rest are just passengers......

[BLOODBANE]

Ive never wheeled with the guy with the AWD Explorer (he's aussie locked in the rear), but he did the support the troops run with CO4x4.org last month. But next month is our annual Chnamans run with RMFTC, and we'll see then. I will, of course post some pics up ( I usually run tailgunner)..

[gm4x4lover]

If you want to get technical, and say that four wheel drive means the ability to drive all four wheels in all conditions, the 80 series Land Cruiser is the only true 4x4 ever built from the factory because it comes locked front and rear, unless I am mistaken and the jk comes with f/r lockers which I think it may but am too lazy to look up. Then there are two.

All other factory produced four wheel drives are not four wheel drive. They can simply drive power to both axles, but not both wheels on both axles.

An AWD rig is 1WD, because 3 can stand still while one spins (and they will, if you really test it).

A locked center low range vehicle is 2wd, because only two wheels have to get power. Add a rear locker and you are 3wd, because now 3 wheels have to get power.

ATRAC found on the FJ Cruiser suggests true 4wd by working the ABS independently on all four corners, but it has to slip to work, and sometimes that slip means spinning. It simply cannot drive power to all four all of the time.

So almost none of you have 4x4s :D (your '94 Explorer is actually four wheel drive and a unique rig :thunb:)

Of course in practice this means little - there aren't that many dual locker required trails out there. Which is why there is not good standard definition. Performance goes way beyond your differentials - suspension flex, SFA, and gearing can make up for open diffs in a big way. I wheeled with just a real limited slip, big lift, and low gears for years. Being locked f/r takes the entire rock crawling game to a new level, but is that what defines a real 4x4? Only in a magazine.

:eek:


Thats true in an awd system thats based on the t-case only having slip like the land rover discovery I or most h1's. But most of the new awd vehicles ( subaru, audi, mitsubishi, lexus, bmw, and most other awd's) use that same kinda t-case and they also use the brakes to modulate the slip on the tires. I dont think that you could get just one tire to spin on any modern awd.

I also dont think that is a good measure of a "real 4wd". In this market place it wont be long before 90% of all vehicles are awd or have an awd option. So does that mean that 90% of new vehicles will be a "real 4wd"?

But buy my definition the the awd explorer which has no low range option would not be a real 4x4. And both the disco and the H1 would fall into the real slot.

[Patrolman]

Wow! Some REALLY GREAT RESPONSES!

So as I had posted, this conversation was about 10 years ago. Thinking in the late 90's, there were far fewer 4x4 vehicles on the market. At that time, the conversation was much different. Not only have the vehicles like the FJ come into the market, but the availability of aftermarket parts has exploded and modifications have exploded! 10 years ago, the aftermarket offered tires, a few lockers, and simple lift kits. That was basically it. I have old magazines from 10 years ago and they are humorous to say the least! Even at that time, my friends and I were breaking the mold. Function over form when the vehicles in mags were all chrome on big lifts!

When I had this conversation, every single one of my friends was driving a 4wd older than 1980 (I left the BRAT at home). Included an old Scout, FJ40, Rover Series II, and my Nissan Patrol. Also, at the time, most any vehicle that had a permanent roof wasn't capable of travelling through the areas that we were going. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, FJ60/FJ80/Disco/Rangie etc. Rav4, CRV, Explorer, Cherokee and such likely wouldn't have done the trails we were doing.

The FJ80 with the dual e-lockers was certainly a real breakthrough! I believe the 60/62 came with an optional cable locker from the factory. There were also limited US vehicles with factory locking diffs. My 74 Scout had a rear limited slip. My CJ6 also had the same from the factory. I know that some vehicles came with detroit lockers from the factory, but this was a factory option and not sure if it was available in a front axle. Clearly the remainder of the world gets more aggressive vehicles than the US does. Thankfully they continue to demand those vehicles so sometimes those same vehicles slip their way into the US market for the small population here who demand them!

The true definition of a 4wd is certainly hard to define and will only become more blurred as automotive demands change. My personal opinion is that as we see more electric and electric-hybrid cars, we will see more AWD. Electronic AWD and traction control will be easy to incorporate into these vehicles. I believe these will be "cross-over" style vehicles and likely won't have a 4-low option. Who really knows, but seems like that is where the trend will go.

[Pathrat]

What is cool is that in a good group like FR4x4 you can get out and test what you have and find its limits, since it all has limits, and then decide if you want to go further. Maybe we can get Pathrat to do a solid front axle conversion with some 35's on her FJC in a year or two :D

One, interesting thoughts and observations you all have posted.

Two, the SAS has been offered by AllPhase up in Longmont. There was talk about me being a guinea pig when I was there getting my skid plate installed. It is tempting. I think my HOA would not allow me to lower the garage floor inlet to get a higher FJC in the port.
I would like more articulation though. :rolleyes:

[Patrolman]

Such a great post!

I wouldn't SAS an FJC either. They are perfectly capable with IFS. I run IFS on both my 87 Toyotas and really couldn't be happier. The solid axle gets more flex and traction, but each of my vehicles with a rear e-locker can typically go places that a comparable solid axle vehicle can go. In fact, sometimes the locker outperforms the solid axles. I think a good set of rubber and lockers are the key to performance.

[Pathrat]

Maybe I should clarify.

Thanks for your input, I will have to re-read to understand everything that was written.

No, I sincerely doubt the ATRAC and VSC and all that fun stuff is going to be unaltered if one did an SAS. The idea of something that is really a dedicated trail rig with supercool capabilities; the mental picture of this big badass FJC, is appealing. In real terms, the answer is no, I have no plans to do an SAS. Tempting yes, realistic for me? No. As a matter of fact, that was a thread post I was planning on getting to, after some research, that would be titled "SAS: why?" I want more articulation, and I want a daily driver that will fit in my garage. The IFS in the front has not been an impediment for what I do, or I am too ignorant to assign causes. :) Yes, balance, as in everything, of the wants and the needs and the much needed common sense.

Back to what is a 4x4: I don't know the final answer, but I own one.

[virden]

I say that if you wheel it then its a 4x4

[Patrolman]

I say that if you wheel it then its a 4x4

Nice... I have to agree. That is how I feel but my buddy with the Land Rover Series didn't see my BRAT as a "4x4". I guess the statement in the owners manual stating "4wheel drive is not intended for offroad use" kind of shot down my argument that it was a 4x4!

[virden]

Nice... I have to agree. That is how I feel but my buddy with the Land Rover Series didn't see my BRAT as a "4x4". I guess the statement in the owners manual stating "4wheel drive is not intended for offroad use" kind of shot down my argument that it was a 4x4!


wow! yeah I can see how that would burst that bubble!

[BLOODBANE]

Too many opinions anymore. One mans trash is another's treasures(or womans). I still stand(IMO) that the improved traction caused by both axles(even if its only one tire per axle)being powered it can be classified as a 4x4. Like I said you won't ever run Indy in a Subie, but it will still be better than, say a Geo Metro(just picked those two to emphasize my point)on almost all road conditions. If you, the owner, thinks its a 4x4 then be happy and continue motoring.......

[Pathrat]

[quote=Nay;10010]Much like any larger "SUV" you are going to get a lot of body damage if you push it. The IFS is a natural limiter that is useful without being a shocking liability in any way.
accomplishment in suspension design IMO that I will not mess with.

At some point, all of us "SUV" owners have an ocean of glass and sheetmetal that is more of a limitation than anything else. I've watched so many people try to prove that wrong, and they just wreck their rigs.

The key is balance, whatever that means for you. . :D[/quote

I know you are busy with the basement, but after reading this again, I have to concur in writtn format with Patrolman: such a great post!

[SCRubicon]

If I'm not mistaken, Enzo Ferrari defined the Jeep as "America's only true sports car." So, I'm not going to say Jeep...:D

[Patrolman]

Somewhere years ago I read a review of the early 60's Scout model 80. It went something like "handles like a Jaguar". I assume they were talking about the sports car rather than the mammal. Maybe the Scout 80 was the real American sports car!

[Brody]

Looking at my rig, everyone knows that I am way into show 'n shine, chrome, lotsa bling, and worry probably more than I should about sheet metal and other body damage. I sometimes don't even drive on dirt roads for fear of getting dust scratches on my truck. I have even been known to drive out into an unmarked and untraveled field to avoid the possibility of having trees scratch my paint if the trees were too close on the regular trail. Bottom line is that I have a great deal of empathy for people who own SUVs and the fear that they have for their sheet metal and getting scratches on their rigs.

[Patrolman]

Nothing says pride like pin stripes, right? That is how I stripped the clear coat off the sides of one of my trucks!

[Pathrat]

Nothing says pride like pin stripes, right? That is how I stripped the clear coat off the sides of one of my trucks!

:lol:I call them evidence that the "Road Narrows" signs are valid.

[Patrolman]

Yeah, no joke!

One of the funniest signs I ever saw was "High Clearance 4x4 Required". That was after about 200 yards of 4-low crawling. If you hadn't figured it out by then, it is a little too late!

[Pathrat]

Yeah, no joke!

One of the funniest signs I ever saw was "High Clearance 4x4 Required". That was after about 200 yards of 4-low crawling. If you hadn't figured it out by then, it is a little too late!

Like this? Says "High clearance vehicles only" You think???

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x102/pathrat40/HIclearance.jpg

[gragravar]

Hmmm, what defines a 4x4? looking in my garage I have 3 that are equipped with some form of 4wd.

my RR classic - definately a 4x4 (even with the fixed roof) :rolleyes:

the Disco II - well I would count it as a 4x4, but just barely. Dont get me wrong, it is a very capable truck, but I think 4x4 implies the ability to deal well with common off road situations. the stock tires and long rear overhang cut into its capabilities. with some minor modifications I would be a lot more comfortable calling it a true 4x4.

then finally there is the allroad. It truly is an amazing vehicle. the air adjustable suspension gives it as much clearance as the stock disco II. in europe it was sold with a transfer case with a low range and it is the only car based SUV ever to complete land rover's factory test course. that said the modifications I have done to mine make it more street (or track) oriented. stiffer anti-sway bars and low profile tires on larger rims make life offroad difficult. lowering the suspension also does nothing to improve approach and departure angles. and that race clutch is kinda touchy to be used when starting from a stop at extreme angles. As has been mentioned, give me some low traction snow less than about 6" deep and I have yet to find a true 4x4 that can keep up. well, even in the dry, very little keeps up. :D

So, what does all this mean? I guess for me a 4x4 is something capable of dealing well with a wide range of conditions you'd encounter when there is no road. It needs clearance, short overhangs, a low range transfer case, some underside protection, and some recovery points.

[hubbazoot]

I'm looking at these posts and thinking more and more about what trails generally consist of, or when 4x4's really shine. The idea for trails that come to mind are mud, snow, water, and rocks.

As for what is meant by 4x4: when all four wheels have traction, all four wheels are pulling. Funny thing about it... if all wheels are pulling, you wouldn't need 4x4. Then again, most people can't drive vehicles with axle(s) locked.

Here's my idea for a one-sentence definition:
Assuming both are equipped with the necessary supplies, a "wheeler" is a vehicle designed (whether stock or aftermarket design) to go where walking would 'suck' and where it would be impossible to drive a standard police car.

Example: It would suck to walk up this and there's no way a cop car can get up it.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/Caged94XJ/Spring%20Creek%20May%2017%202009/101_1421.jpg

Pictures just never do this stuff justice.

[Brody]

I'm looking at these posts and thinking more and more about what trails generally consist of, or when 4x4's really shine. The idea for trails that come to mind are mud, snow, water, and rocks.

As for what is meant by 4x4: when all four wheels have traction, all four wheels are pulling. Funny thing about it... if all wheels are pulling, you wouldn't need 4x4. Then again, most people can't drive vehicles with axle(s) locked.

Here's my idea for a one-sentence definition:
Assuming both are equipped with the necessary supplies, a "wheeler" is a vehicle designed (whether stock or aftermarket design) to go where walking would 'suck' and where it would be impossible to drive a standard police car.

Example: It would suck to walk up this and there's no way a cop car can get up it.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/Caged94XJ/Spring%20Creek%20May%2017%202009/101_1421.jpg

Pictures just never do this stuff justice.

Ah....best to leave rock/ice climbers out of this equation...This is a stroll in the park, even with a huge pack....and this would be considered an 'easy' approach to a rock/ice climb....though a bit tedious..But, then again, us rock and ice climbers are considered a slightly weird bunch....

[Gecko Cycles]

We have had 3 Subaru Legacy Outbacks. I have got them all stuck with just one wheel spinning on rocky loose hill climbs. They all worked pretty well on slick streets but no way had the jump that I can get on snow or icy streets that my Sammy gets. On the other hand they did corner and stop better on icy streets especially after I spooled the rear of the Sammy. Stopping is much better when you have ABS like the Subi's had. Locked rear is not your friend on icy off camber either. I think open open worked pretty well on the off camber ice but go straight up and the locked diff works better. Selectable diffs are the way to go. My Chevy trucks with the limited slip option works really well all around. I did not go rock crawling with them though.

[SCRubicon]

I'm looking at these posts and thinking more and more about what trails generally consist of, or when 4x4's really shine. The idea for trails that come to mind are mud, snow, water, and rocks.

As for what is meant by 4x4: when all four wheels have traction, all four wheels are pulling. Funny thing about it... if all wheels are pulling, you wouldn't need 4x4. Then again, most people can't drive vehicles with axle(s) locked.

Here's my idea for a one-sentence definition:
Assuming both are equipped with the necessary supplies, a "wheeler" is a vehicle designed (whether stock or aftermarket design) to go where walking would 'suck' and where it would be impossible to drive a standard police car.

Example: It would suck to walk up this and there's no way a cop car can get up it.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/Caged94XJ/Spring%20Creek%20May%2017%202009/101_1421.jpg

Pictures just never do this stuff justice.

I wonder if the City of Lone Tree PD considers this a "standard police car"? I hear Central City PD has 3 in their fleet...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/SteveChabala/Random%20Junk/h3police.jpg

[hubbazoot]

Oh I'm not talking about what would be impossible to walk up, I'm just talking about what would be very tiring or just generally annoying to walk up. There's so much involved in it that it's hard to get it down to just one basic sentence.

[Funrover]

One, interesting thoughts and observations you all have posted.

Two, the SAS has been offered by AllPhase up in Longmont. There was talk about me being a guinea pig when I was there getting my skid plate installed. It is tempting. I think my HOA would not allow me to lower the garage floor inlet to get a higher FJC in the port.
I would like more articulation though. :rolleyes:

I say do it, you may have to take the outdoor parking spot.. but I bet it'd be ok

[Funrover]

This is a hard question to answer, to me the driver makes the 4x4 however. I believe what defines a 4x4 is the DRIVER. If you go out, explore, have fun and leave the pavement where you need extra clearnce or more than 2wd.. that is a 4x4.. I know that is a very loose way to look at it, but I see more built 4x4's that never leave the asphalt than I can believe

[DKDunn04]

When I think "real 4x4" the first things that come to mind are sold axles, front and rear, and a low range t-case. That doesn't mean that "real 4x4's" always have these. Look at the H1.

[Brody]

I know that is a very loose way to look at it, but I see more built 4x4's that never leave the asphalt than I can believe

I know you are referring to my rig, Aaron. You can come right out and say it...I don't mind. I know that I spend way too much time behind a polishing cloth and not enough behind either the wheel, wrench or welder.

[Funrover]

I know you are referring to my rig, Aaron. You can come right out and say it...I don't mind. I know that I spend way too much time behind a polishing cloth and not enough behind either the wheel, wrench or welder.

Since you brought it up... :lol:

[Pathrat]

When I went by Brody's house to drop off the screw gun we borrowed, he was in the garage with the TireBrite and a soft, lint-free cloth...and the rig

[WINKY]

hhhmmmm......:erm:

[Brody]

When I went by Brody's house to drop off the screw gun we borrowed, he was in the garage with the TireBrite and a soft, lint-free cloth...and the rig

Yep...that is me in a nutshell...

Actually have been known to use that but on the other cars with actual paint on them.....And I do use the TireBrite stuff on my heap every now and then as a tire conditioner. It also makes washing mud off the tires easier....

[Haku]

I wonder if the City of Lone Tree PD considers this a "standard police car"? I hear Central City PD has 3 in their fleet...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/SteveChabala/Random%20Junk/h3police.jpg


Breckenridge did (or maybe still does) have Land Rovers for their cop cars, complete with rear moon roof. Always found that amusing. Pretty sure Aspen has some offroaders too (and not just SUV's).

The "whats is a 4x4" is largely an un-answerable question, especially trying to pin it down among different people. The "does it suck to walk up" argument is interesting, but I've seen paved hills that sucked to walk up and that any car could get up no problem, but again that's a difference between people.

Oh, and yes, climbers are a weird bunch for sure. Having had friends that do it, and worked in a shop that sells the equipment, they are defintely a unique group of people. Not quite as unique as the Base Jumping crowd, but still out there.

JH

[Rob]

I'm jumping in late, but here's my 2 cents. Pithy definition are difficult. Even when you have a good definition for something, people still insist on misusing it. There's one specific definition for "robot," for example, but many people wrongly assign the word to things that aren't robots or robotic.

I'll go with the Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart hedge. Potter said this about obscenity: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so.
But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

I can't define four-wheel drive or 4x4 or off-road to everyone's satisfaction but, by golly, I know it when I see it.