SBC ignition problem

[FINOCJ]

Installed a point-less Accel distributor (solid sate module controlled) for the sbc283 in the wagon....No spark as best as I can tell. I tried to install the new distributor exactly as the old points one came out - and the cap has lots of room to rotate so I should be able to get the timing set, and have checked plug wire terminals and routing a number of times....Number1 on the cap is essentially straight forward - maybe slightly toward passenger. I am working solo, so its hard to crank the engine and be under the hood, but I hooked up the timing light just to see if I am getting any spark - and No flash. Here is a pic of the set-up:
https://www.beamingpix.com/images/2019/10/31/P_20191031_174427.jpg

The green wire from firewall is from the ignition switch (it went to the resistor before - no resistor with this set-up according to directions) and goes to coil (+). There was no start-up resistor bypass from starter directly to the coil before - so I know that would not have been ideal, so maybe the issue is here. The red wire goes from coil (+) to the B terminal on the accel module (per instructions). The green wire goes from coil (-) to C terminal on module. The other module terminals go to the the module pick-up under the cap - they have different size terminals and thus cannot get mixed up. Otherwise, everything else is related to the high V wires - I've tried to ensure they fit the cap terminals properly....I am not 100% certain I have the distributor installed correctly in terms on gear tooth - so I will go through and manually turn the engine until I am at TDC on compression stroke for #1 and check rotor position - but it ain't going to matter if I don't have spark. Is there some way I can use a multi-meter to check if I am getting current from the coil to the distributor, and then getting it out of the cap?

EDIT - think the missing resistor bypass wire from starter soleniod may the issue....from the ol intraweb of knowledge....
The original 12 volt override wire from the starter solenoid “R” terminal to the ignition coil must be retained and must be doubled up with the new 12 volt ignition feed before the wires are plugged into the HEI power terminal. The reason this is necessary is that the ignition switch is mutually exclusive in the crank and run positions. This means that there is no power on the “RUN” circuit when the ignition switch is in the “CRANK” mode. Subsequently, without the lead wire from the starter solenoid “R” terminal, the car won’t start.

But....my ingition switch is has been replaced with something (arghhh...I really am wishing I bought one that was more original)....maybe it one like this....how do I know what type of ignition switch I have.....
An alternative solution involves changing the ignition switch to one that supplies 12 volts on the “RUN” circuit when the ignition is in “CRANK” mode. With this type of ignition switch, a 12 volt override wire from the starter is not necessary. Subsequently, if your starter had an “R” terminal and you changed the ignition switch as described here, the original 12 volt override wire could be eliminated.

Thinking of adding the 12V wire from R to coil+ to see if that helps....would it hurt to have it there if not needed?

[Jim]

Are you getting 12vDC power to the coil in RUN position? How about in CRANK/START position?

Consider running a temporary 12vDC power line from the battery + to coil power (If I did this I'd likely isolate / remove the other items that connect to the coil power lead - unless they are powered from power input at the connection - your ignition switch wire - shouldn't be needed - I like simplicity when testing).

I'd see if you are getting spark from the coil wire (vs a plug wire). This simplifies the circuit by removing the cap / roter as items to consider.

Are you getting any spark from the coil?

If you are getting solid power to the coil (in both RUN and CRANK/START), and there is no spark from the coil output wire with the motor cranking, the coil is likely not getting a trigger signal (or is defective - an odd coincidence). If you remove your wiring from the trigger lead of the coil I believe you can manually (no need to have motor cranking) trigger the coil by grounding/not-grounding/etc the trigger lead from the coil. Does the coil spark when you manually trigger the coil? (is the coil working?) If no, you might have a bad coil. If yes, there's something amiss in the solid state coil trigger kit (or the wiring for it).

If you don't have a spare person to turn the key while you're measuring items under the hood - consider buying / borrowing an engine bay starter button. It does not flow high current power from battery to starter but it does connect to the starter relay (low current) to manually kick the relay into crank mode. You'd set the ignition key in whatever position desired for your testing. If the engine does start from the engine bay crank / remote start button you'd go to the ignition key to turn it off.

https://www.amazon.com/KD-Tools-SWITCH-REMOTE-STARTER/dp/B0051XCY8C

Another helpful tool - spark plug test - pull a wire, connect to test plug, clip plug where it can be viewed while cranking the motor - engine bay or ignition key. There are other styles - this is the one I have:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-6589-Electronic-Ignition-Tester/dp/B0050SFVO2/ref=sr_1_18

[FINOCJ]

I'd see if you are getting spark from the coil wire (vs a plug wire).
I checked this yesterday using my induction timing light and it was indicating that no spark was going through the high V coil wire to the distributor - thus my concern that the issue is not in the dist/cap and more in the coil - or maybe in no signal getting to the coil....


If you are getting solid power to the coil (in both RUN and CRANK/START)
that is a good starting point - I can check that even without help from inside cab when cranking and when in the run position using a meter and some alligator clips. As its set-up just like it was before replacing the points - I assume its all good but its the first point in the circuit that needs to be checked. The ignition switch is unknown, not original and spliced in from the steering column swap (key ignition switch in the column as opposed to on the dash). I was messing with some other wiring under there and maybe I screwed something up (lost ground).

As everything worked previously on points, I am assuming all the parts are good (coil, ignition switch, plug wires etc)....but with the way this wagon project is going, it wouldn't be a surprise if the coil died.

[FINOCJ]

I am getting voltage to the coil (+) when both cranking and in on/run position. But it doesn't seem like I am getting any spark out of the coil to the distributor in the high V wire....I will see if I can trigger the coil by grounding the negative side of the coil and see if I can detect a 'spark' signal going from the coil to the distributor.

[Jim]

The old points would ground the circuit and when the points would open is when the spark would generate (99% certain it's this way and not the other way - either way - when you ground/open the negative (what I've called trigger) on the coil you should get a spark from the coil output (coil needs to be mounted / grounded).

The condensor in the old points circuit was used to reduce the damaging arc across the points - making them last longer. Also, the ballast resistor was for the same goal. Full 12v was supplied to the coil when starting for a hotter spark - but when running, voltage was supplied via the ballast resistor, reducing coil voltage, which would reduce the arc across the points - but still be enough to give a decent enough spark to fire off the air-fuel mixture.

[Brian]

I am getting voltage to the coil (+) when both cranking and in on/run position. But it doesn't seem like I am getting any spark out of the coil to the distributor in the high V wire....I will see if I can trigger the coil by grounding the negative side of the coil and see if I can detect a 'spark' signal going from the coil to the distributor.

Can you swap out/in your CJ coil to test this?

[FINOCJ]

The old points would ground the circuit and when the points would open is when the spark would generate (99% certain it's this way and not the other way - either way - when you ground/open the negative (what I've called trigger) on the coil you should get a spark from the coil output (coil needs to be mounted / grounded).

You are right...but in either case, the coil is a transformer, so any dramatic change in current through the primary winding (whether that is through closing an open circuit, or opening a closed circuit) will induce the secondary coil voltage...so, its easier (safer) for me to manually ground (spark) the coil(-) wire against the engine block and and see if jumps the voltage coming out the coil....and it does register on the volt meter (but its not flowing current through the wire as something further down the line is open). Checked continuity of the high V coil to distributor wire and that seems good, so starting to move towards the distributor and its internals....I do have a used replacement module that I can test if for some reason the module has gone bad - all of the distributor is old and sat on the shelf for a long time.


The condensor in the old points circuit was used to reduce the damaging arc across the points - making them last longer. Also, the ballast resistor was for the same goal. Full 12v was supplied to the coil when starting for a hotter spark - but when running, voltage was supplied via the ballast resistor, reducing coil voltage, which would reduce the arc across the points - but still be enough to give a decent enough spark to fire off the air-fuel mixture.

In the case of this wagon, the external resistor was used with the points appropriately, although the resistor bypass (sometimes called override) during start up wasn't used as the new ignition switch (which apparently came with the steering upgrade) allows for current to flow during cranking. The bypass would allow for the full 12V to make it to the distributor during start-up to help get it going, but once in run mode (key ignition in run/on not crank) current goes through the normal ignition switch path and through the resistor to reduce the V and protect the points - I have the bypass on the CJ from when I had points and external resistor - but now I've gone pertronix with internal resistor. I still have to have the bypass wire from the R terminal on the starter as the old school ignition doesn't flow current through the ignition switch during cranking - just during run. For the wagon, as its going HEI, its supposed to get the full 12V all the time, so I removed resistor and am connecting the ignition 12V directly to coil (+). I think everything with that part is checking out good....hate to say it, but its starting to look like its something inside the distributor or maybe I have it 180 out of phase....slow progress....

[FINOCJ]

Can you swap out/in your CJ coil to test this?

I was thinking no on this as my cj coil is internally resisted - the HEI module needs full 12V....but I just remembered I keep an old spare coil in the back of the jeep that is not resisted (kind of a just get you home if needed kind of thing). Could try that if I have to....but the current coil does seem to be working....

[Jim]

I doubt the dist being 180 out would affect the capability of the coil to produce spark. Now, if you want that spark to be timed properly for the proper cylinder - then dist alignment comes into play - but to have the dist spin and give trigger to the coil - the coil should produce your spark irrespective to TDC alignments. This is why I'm focusing on using the coil high voltage output as the first level of spark testing. Once you have reliable spark from the coil, then you can move on to timing that spark to proper TDC of the pistons.

My method in the diagnosis / repair is to break the system down to the small components - get to the basic of it and then once that component is operational, build up from there.

[FINOCJ]

I doubt the dist being 180 out would affect the capability of the coil to produce spark. Now, if you want that spark to be timed properly for the proper cylinder - then dist alignment comes into play - but to have the dist spin and give trigger to the coil - the coil should produce your spark irrespective to TDC alignments. This is why I'm focusing on using the coil high voltage output as the first level of spark testing. Once you have reliable spark from the coil, then you can move on to timing that spark to proper TDC of the pistons.

My method in the diagnosis / repair is to break the system down to the small components - get to the basic of it and then once that component is operational, build up from there.

Sorry if I wasnt clear...I am getting spark out of the coil and into the distributor when I trigger it manually....trying to see if its coming out of the dist to the plugs.

[FINOCJ]

So I pulled a plug and checked the old fashioned way by grounding it to the block - getting a very weak spark....

[Jim]

So I pulled a plug and checked the old fashioned way by grounding it to the block - getting a very weak spark....

But (assumption), said spark plug to block being fed by the coil output is a strong spark (and 8x of them)? I think you might swap a plug wire and run it into the coil and shelve the coil wire with the plug test.

But, said spark plug, when routed through the cap and rotor - you're weak... could the dist be off one tooth (edit: in either direction) in the motor?

edit: This is a new cap/rotor on the dist, yes? If yes, it should have clean rotor contacts and cap (internally) contacts - no corrosion (thus not a reason for a weakened spark passing through those parts)?

[FINOCJ]

But (assumption), said spark plug to block being fed by the coil output is a strong spark (and 8x of them)?

yes - its an assumption, but I also tried another coil (that last worked when replaced a few years ago) and still getting weak spark. Two coils that functioned when last used, guessing both of them didn't go bad (and one over the course of a month). But when the plug is fed spark through the distributor, it weak. It could be an issue with the module triggering the coil....I tried a replacement module, but same result, so it seems to be more inside the distributor with the magnetic pick-up?


This is a new cap/rotor on the dist, yes? If yes, it should have clean rotor contacts and cap (internally) contacts - no corrosion (thus not a reason for a weakened spark passing through those parts)?

No, this stuff was pulled running and then shelved for a lot of years. Its very clean, no corrosion, stored in the same box it was shipped and has some spare pieces (previous owner is meticulous), but its definitely not new. They don't make this anymore - but its difficult to use a newer version of HEI due to the firewall limitation with the engine swap.... My plug wires are much more of an issue in terms of aging and potential Vdrop along the way than these pieces - I will test their resistance...maybe the HEI stuff is more sensitive to these issues than points - again, this thing was running on points a few weeks ago...The one thing that was changed was the distributor....

[Jim]

yes - its an assumption

Could you run this test for me? If not, I understand.

1) Charge the battery (you've probably already connected the charger as you've been cranking the motor a bit)
2) Fully mount the coil that was on the block with the points dist. Mount is as it would be in operation (I'm going for full grounding of the coil to the block)
3) Pull one or two different plug wires and one at a time connect it to the coil output. (if the same connector style, you could borrow one from the other jeep. That wire is possibly newer / at least it's on an operating motor)
4) Connect one, new / unused (have a new set sitting around?) reasonably gap'd plug to the plug wire and give it a clean ground to the block.
5) Connect 12vDC power in to the coil.
6) Grab a volt meter... What is the voltage reading from coil + terminal to clean block ground? edit: Does it match battery voltage?
7a) If you manually ground/un-ground the coil - terminal, what type of spark do you get? Change to the other plug wire if you wish and re-test.
7b) If you connect the dist to the coil - terminal and crank the motor, what type of spark do you get? Change to the other plug wire if you wish to re-test.

Are you getting weak spark in all conditions? Is any condition giving a good spark?

edit: Does your local auto parts store offer free testing of coils?

[FINOCJ]

will check tomorrow....

[FINOCJ]

Could you run this test for me? If not, I understand.

1) Charge the battery (you've probably already connected the charger as you've been cranking the motor a bit)
2) Fully mount the coil that was on the block with the points dist. Mount is as it would be in operation (I'm going for full grounding of the coil to the block)
3) Pull one or two different plug wires and one at a time connect it to the coil output. (if the same connector style, you could borrow one from the other jeep. That wire is possibly newer / at least it's on an operating motor)
4) Connect one, new / unused (have a new set sitting around?) reasonably gap'd plug to the plug wire and give it a clean ground to the block.
5) Connect 12vDC power in to the coil.
6) Grab a volt meter... What is the voltage reading from coil + terminal to clean block ground? edit: Does it match battery voltage?
7a) If you manually ground/un-ground the coil - terminal, what type of spark do you get? Change to the other plug wire if you wish and re-test.
7b) If you connect the dist to the coil - terminal and crank the motor, what type of spark do you get? Change to the other plug wire if you wish to re-test.

Are you getting weak spark in all conditions? Is any condition giving a good spark?

edit: Does your local auto parts store offer free testing of coils?

This test is easy in theory, but not so in practice as the plug boots/connectors for the dist. cap is different than for the coil output - so its not easy to just try sparking plug from the coil output. With Jen's help and some questionable wire connections, we tried, and I was NOT able to spark a plug directly from the coil. I also tested the existing plug wire resistance - very low so they don't seem to be an issue. Coil (+) reads identical to Batt voltage....about 12.8V but the battery is getting low (I pulled the cj battery to use as a back-up) and the first is on the charger. Got a new coil from FLAPS that I can return if its not the solution....

[FINOCJ]

New coil from FLAPS was not the solution - was easy enough to try....I think the electronic distributor is not triggering the coil for some reason. I tried both modules, and I tried swapping the magnetic pick-up inside the cap as well - again nothing. So, I decided to just go back to the old points distributor....I had partially disassembled and didn't take great pics a month ago, so hopefully I got it back together. dropped it in and I have spark again....but I can't get it to run....guessing something with timing is way off....

[Tom]

New coil from FLAPS was not the solution - was easy enough to try....I think the electronic distributor is not triggering the coil for some reason. I tried both modules, and I tried swapping the magnetic pick-up inside the cap as well - again nothing. So, I decided to just go back to the old points distributor....I had partially disassembled and didn't take great pics a month ago, so hopefully I got it back together. dropped it in and I have spark again....but I can't get it to run....guessing something with timing is way off....
Its easy to get the distributor shaft in 180degrees off. I know from an old Chevy Luv I had years ago when I replaced the stock one.

[Jim]

Is there any diagnostic info available for the electronic distributor - any way to bench test it?

[FINOCJ]

Its running again! I had to move the wires 1 spot around the dist to get the timing to be close enough to run (the points dist cap only fits a certain way in the tight space and the timing has to be close to adjust it)... even when it won't run, the spark registers and and you can check timing while its cranking. Its back on the 55 style points distributor, but I think it helps me know that its not something major I did wrong, but rather an issue with the magnetic distributor trigger or module. This distributor needs the vac can replaced....and Pertronix does make a breakerless trigger specific to this early distributor (only used 55-56)...so maybe that is an option. I am worried the various HEI and other aftermarket breakerless distributors will be too big to fit in against the firewall. Anyway....at least its running and I can drive it around and then check for leaks along the oil adapter and pan gasket etc, and still trying to test the cooling system.


Is there any diagnostic info available for the electronic distributor - any way to bench test it?
that really is the question....I haven't given up the accel distributor - its the right size...I can buy brand new module for $40, but I don't want to waste the $40 if something else in there is bad (there is not much else except the magnetic pick-up). I am going to inquire if there is a way to test it....

[FINOCJ]

Here is one home style testing idea:
Put the distributor gently in a vise and use a drill to spin the shaft. Hook it up to a spare coil that is hooked up to one spark plug that is grounded to the vice... if the one plug fires you can mark the trigger side as good and focus on the cap, rotor, and installation.
If it does not fire use a test light on the coil negative terminal and see if it flashes.

[Jim]

Its running again!

FANTASTIC !!!

so the debate - convert existing dist to pointless or figure out what's up with the newer unit.

[FINOCJ]

spoke too soon...drove it around the neighborhood block and it died and wouldn't restart...drug it the 1/2 mile home on strap.

[Jim]

aw crud. If you want me to stop down and lend a hand I could.

[FINOCJ]

Since the points are back in, I am going to see if they need any dwell/gap adjustment....I think I need to find a good distributor, just not sure what I can use/fit. I don't mind going points full time (I ran the cj that way for years), but since this style distributor must be removed to adjust the points, and removal is a PITA, I would prefer to go electronic route....

[FINOCJ]

Ok, think I may have both fuel and ignition issues....but its running again....I got it running (for whatever reason it started up) and back in the garage (so my wife is gonna be a bit annoyed when she gets home) and spent some time tweaking the timing (backed off initial to 10 BTDC) and also re-checked carb screw settings. Idle mix actually seemed about right, but slow idle speed was way too low, and it wouldn't run (the screw was actually backed off so much that that it wasn't in contact with the throttle linkage). So got that bumped back up to about 680 rpm and it at least kept running. I am thinking when I last tuned it, I did not allow it to get to full temp, or at least the automatic thermal choke and fast idle cam thingy didn't get fully disengaged, and it was running with a bit of open throttle plate...I remember what little I spent trying to tune before I started the whole distributor fiasco, that I backed the low idle speed screw all the way out, and nothing happened, and I closed the idle mix all the way down, and it didn't really stumble...Today, with the fast idle cam all the way off, the slow idle mix screw became a factor as well as the idle mix screws...so that is all good (might still need to close the idle mix screw down a bit more).
But there is some issues still...The idle has a bit of a misfire and there is some exhaust backfire under throttle. Mechanical advance is at least partially active, but vacuum advance is non-functional (the reason I pulled the distributor to begin with). The timing isn't as consistent as I'd like, although as it warmed up the timing did stabilize pretty good. Probably need to shim the distributor gear a bit. The rpm is also a bit less consistent than I'd like - although some of that might be my meter - it doesn't seem to like taking measurements around the sbc maybe because of the interference from the generator. I definitely can't get a decent reading from the driver size next to the generator. Finally, I am getting some weird signal on coil (-) terminal. I wanted to check/confirm rpm using the coil (-) negative terminal instead of my induction clip, and its completely random noise/junk/senseless readings. I also tried to check dwell which also uses the coil (-) terminal, and again get nothing but senseless noise. Not sure what is going there, but thinking it might be related to the misfire...
So, I am going to pull the distributor, and check the point gap manually with feeler gauge - wondering if that might be causing some of the issue. Also, maybe I have a grounding issue with the points/condenser....Here is my pic of the breaker plate: you can see the coil (-) wire going to the points terminal combined with the condenser wire. Its the black wire by the vac can that grounds the housing to the breaker plate that I think I need to do differently...I think I need to ground it to the screw that holds the condensor bracket instead of the post for the vac can arm...
https://beamingpix.com/images/2019/11/04/P_20191104_175204.jpg

[FINOCJ]

Ok, ended up cleaning the distributor and points up - everything under the cap seemed a bit dirty and oily. Set the point gap to .016 (used) as best as I could - I much prefer to do that via an external adjustment screw with dwell meter. Things do seem to be running a bit smoother... it really seems to like/need to warm up quite a bit before it settles in. I put the vac gauge on the manifold and checked timing and idle mix adjustment. That puts initial timing 11-12 BTDC (about the same as my ear and rpm suggest). Unlike the 225v6, its kind of a narrow timing range that is pretty obvious that its running best....the 225 seems to like a huge range of initial timing, especially up to 16 (although I only run it at 9). Tweaked the idle mix screws a touch richer (1/4 turn)....all this provides a steady vac of 14.5 , which while low for most of you, is about right for here at 5280'. Still cannot get a decent reading off the negative side of the coil for dwell - so not sure how well the points are truly adjusted....Something about the interference with generator or whatever else seems to affect my cheapo meter...Going to try driving it a bit as is (without the vac can)...and I need to work on the oil filter adapter - its definitely leaking a bit too much....Then maybe order a new replacement distributor to run without points....

[Jim]

Hello James, you've mentioned dist (-) terminal noise, with a possible generator connection, a couple times. Can you isolate the generator by possibly removing the belt?

Does the gen belt also turn the water pump? Perhaps pull the belt on a cold motor and test your (-) terminal and see if it's noisy or not (before the motor could overheat - not knowing if the water pump would be involved).

[FINOCJ]

Single belt system...runs water pump. Will consider...also thinking of a way to shield the generator....

[Jim]

For testing purposes of seeing if the generator is a cause to the noise you're getting on the coil's (-) terminal...

Isolating the generator by removing the belt: Running a cold motor for one minute at idle should be safe, in my book, to not have any cylinder/head hot spot. This should give ample time to test for noise, no?

Isolating the generator by removing electrical connections: I'm of the belief that the generator is only used to charge the battery. The engine can be started and operated on a charged battery. Consider disconnecting the electric connections from the generator (shield / so they don't short). I'd give attention that having the generator spinning with no output wiring does not damage the electrics of the generator. Because of this concern, I go back to pulling the belt for a short duration test.

If the test is conclusive that the generator is the cause, then I'd look at a permanent solution.

[FINOCJ]

I'm of the belief that the generator is only used to charge the battery.
True of a generator and a 1 wire alternator - not necessarily true with a 3 wire alternator - although all essential engine ignition functions are set-up to run to off the battery as a back-up and thus, yes, the engine will run without a functioning generator....


Consider disconnecting the electric connections from the generator (shield / so they don't short).
Don't know for sure this works with an old school generator circuit - There may not be a parallel circuit around the generator (well actually there may be via the external regulator), but its possible an open connection at the generator would cause the whole circuit to stop flowing. External regulators confuse me a bit...but I do think it allows for current to flow parallel (around) the generator.


I'd give attention that having the generator spinning with no output wiring does not damage the electrics of the generator.
I have no idea if this would cause damage or not, but since its a true generator (and not an alternator), it means that when its spinning, whether output current is flowing or not, its generating magnetic fields that are disrupting my meter test probes.


Isolating the generator by removing the belt: Running a cold motor for one minute at idle should be safe, in my book, to not have any cylinder/head hot spot. This should give ample time to test for noise, no?
Think this is the easiest solution....will probably be helpful to have my voice activated remote started (wife) to turn ignition on and off so I don't waste time running around from the driver seat, around the door, smacking my knee into the bumper, tripping over the creeper to get to the front passenger fender to reach in and test the coil, and then repeat in reverse to shut it down.


then I'd look at a permanent solution.
Its called an alternator....

[Jim]

"then I'd look at a permanent solution."

Its called an alternator....

LOL - I wasn't thinking that far out for permanent solution, but if you're looking for change, is an "Mr. Fusion" an option for ya...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Di5rLmPiXp4/Vie0aE9-ejI/AAAAAAAAD-4/hPhRDqhL4-c/s1600/mr-fusion.jpg

[FINOCJ]

LOL - I wasn't thinking that far out for permanent solution, but if you're looking for change, is an "Mr. Fusion" an option for ya...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Di5rLmPiXp4/Vie0aE9-ejI/AAAAAAAAD-4/hPhRDqhL4-c/s1600/mr-fusion.jpg

every day that I work on these old jeeps is like a time travel day...its back to the future everytime

I'd be happy with a 55amp 3 wire alternator - same as what is in the cj. 3 wire alternator set-ups are much more functional than 1-wire, especially on a Chevy set-up. I swapped the 35A external regulated alternator on the cj to 55 internal, and it works really well. This is a bit more complicated as the circuit is different for a generator (and I still have to deal with removing the external regulator....but long term benefits are great....like being able to run any type of electrical accessory (electric fan, electric wiper motor, AC, winch et.