ham vs CB

[4x4JeePmaNthINg]

Hi All,

I was playing with the idea of getting my folks a CB for their jeep, but I'm not sure they would get much use out of it really, its not likely they would reach someone if they needed. Ham radio would be a good choice but I don't see either of them acquiring the license for the use of one, I dont even have one though its on the to do list.

So a CB would be something I guess, or a handheld baofeng 5w just incase of dire emergency (I know its illegal if its not emergency use), but the thought was there just to have something.

What do you all use and how much communication do you get out of what is in your vehicle?

How easy/ not easy would it be for them to reach someone on a repeater if they needed help in the Noco 4x4 areas?




thank you

[newracer]

I have both and rarely use the HAM as only a few people in my club also have it. HAM is a lot clearer even for short distances. There are plenty of repeaters to where you can call down from the mountains to the Front Range. However if they do not get the license will they even know how to use it in an emergency?

If it would truly just be for emergencies, have you thought about getting them a satellite device?

[Jim]

Michael's two questions are the two I have with your query.

What are the recurring costs to satellite emergency notifiers these days?

[Tom]

You could go GMRS radio. Requires a license but its just pay a fee and fill out paperwork.

[Bob]

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but are your folks somewhat tech savvy and/or do they have some experience with using two-way radios already? I wouldn't assume the average person could suddenly operate a ham radio especially under the stress of an emergency without some education and experience.

It's not super difficult, but it's not super simple like dialing 911 either. Even small but unfamiliar things like the squelch and the half duplex connection, in which you push a button to talk and then release it to listen, can easily trip up novice users.

And before that they would need to know what repeaters they might be within range of and be able to tune to the appropriate memory channel, preferably a repeater with a wide area of coverage or part of a linked system. With a Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) capable ham radio, choosing a repeater can be automatic but they still need to be within range of at least one DMR capable repeater.

A concern (even for me) is that there may not be anyone listening to hear a distress call. There aren't many hams using the repeaters compared to 30 years ago when very few had a cell phone.

DMR might reach more listeners because the radio could be programmed to use an enormous "talk group", making the distress call heard over many linked repeaters in a very wide area. But again the radio still needs to be within range of a DMR capable repeater.

A satellite communicator device like InReach may well be a better choice for your folks. One button sends a distress message and GPS location to a 24/7/365 monitoring office. The device can be set to send a breadcrumb trail of GPS locations at intervals to chosen email addresses.

Depending on the service and model, they have limited two way satellite text messaging capability as well. The disadvantage is a recurring subscription fee, but some plans can be suspended during months when it's not in use.

-Bob (N0TZU, Amateur Extra Class ham)

[derf]

There is a good repeater network run by the Colorado Connection. https://www.colcon.org/

It is monitored 24/7 and can call emergency services for you. But like any repeater network the mountains can cause spotty availability.

If you're not really into ham already it may not be the best choice. CB has distance limitations and while a lot of off roaders use CB it will still be difficult to reach people in an emergency.

If I wasn't already into ham, I'd choose one of the satellite services described above.

[Trevor?]

The organization that Derf alluded to that monitors the Colorado Connection for emergencies: https://co-cern.org/... in case anyone unfamiliar was curious.

Per the colcon website, you can see approximate coverage maps for the various repeaters. You asked about NoCo, so for example The Fort Collins repeater coverage is here:
https://www.colcon.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/buckhorn.png

You can see from the map that repeater coverage can get a bit spotty in the mountains. One may have to move a bit to get a signal. Connecting to a repeater requires not only the input frequency, but the offset frequency and any necessary input tones. It's not rocket science, but its not something the average person can figure out in a vacuum. You'd want to pre-program that in the radio.

If you were stuck but not in immediate physical danger, you might be able to ask CERN to call a buddy, or to call Colorado 4x4 Rescue and Recovery if you can get a signal out to one of the repeaters. There's a good chance you might need to hike to get a signal out (assuming you have a handheld radio), then you'll likely have to wait a few hours while those folks get organized.

You'll hear Colorado 4x4 Rescue and Recovery on the connection occasionally when they are getting organized for a recovery. They seem to make it a point to let CERN know when they head out and when they head back.

Bob and Derf make good points. Ham can be useful and a lot of fun (got my general 2 weeks ago) but to be useful in an emergency it takes time and interest to learn how to best go about that. In my opinion CB is really only good for communication between trucks on a trail, especially with a little fiberglass antenna on a Jeep.

[4x4JeePmaNthINg]

Yeah, it would be a bit tricky to make sure they know how to use a ham for emergency, the satellite messengers idea is interesting. It would seem a satellite messenger would cost yearly, not sure how much as of yet, but a PLB would be free beyond original purchase it seems.

I'm curious how long it would take for the signal to be found and your info relayed to some authority/family with the PLB.


Gmrs radios are just a walky talky deal arent they, Its been a while since Ive read up on them, but I recall it was kind of limited distance like CB.

Ideally something that has as close to a direct contact as a 911 call would be optimal.

[Trevor?]

GMRS would be cool as a trail radio if you could get most of the people you ride with to adopt it. There are the handhealds you are thinking of, but there are also mobile radios with more power... 20 or 25 watts I believe. The antenna sizes on UHF frequencies (like GMRS) are much smaller and should be pretty easy to mount.

The main issue that prevents adoption seems to be that people dont like paying 70 or 80 bucks for a 10 year licence... that and CB seems to get the job done for most people that already have one.

[Bob]

Yeah, it would be a bit tricky to make sure they know how to use a ham for emergency, the satellite messengers idea is interesting. It would seem a satellite messenger would cost yearly, not sure how much as of yet, but a PLB would be free beyond original purchase it seems.

I'm curious how long it would take for the signal to be found and your info relayed to some authority/family with the PLB.


Gmrs radios are just a walky talky deal arent they, Its been a while since Ive read up on them, but I recall it was kind of limited distance like CB.

Ideally something that has as close to a direct contact as a 911 call would be optimal.
A PLB doesn’t have a way to specify the nature of the emergency. They are intended for a life threatening emergency such as a boat sinking, plane crash, or being hopelessly lost in deep wilderness. The authorities are usually going to assume the worst and mount a full rescue effort (unless they have additional information).

A satellite communications device allows a text message to be sent (or two way text messaging) to tell the 24/7 monitors, or friends/relatives, what the problem is. The response appropriate for a routine disabled vehicle on a nice summer day is very different from that needed for someone with a medical emergency.

[Tom]

The only reason I suggestied grms is that they have more power than a cb so they will reach out further.

[TyTheJeepGuy]

The only reason I suggestied grms is that they have more power than a cb so they will reach out further.

I know this is an old thread, but just wanted to add my 2 cents. GMRS is legal to broadcast on up to 2Watts after an FCC change, I think it used to be limited to 1W. The cool thing is, unlike an amateur radio license, you can buy a GRMS license that applies for your entire immediate family for 70 dollars, this lasts for 10 years. So my brother and I can use the same callsign (this is rarely used in GMRS anyway but I sent it to him just in case he does have to "prove" anything) and neither of us had to take a test. The best part is, the license lets you broadcast with up to 50 watts!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service

I plan on keeping my CB radio in my rig since that is a great common ground, but I hope the industry standard can switch over. I plan on installing a nice high power GMRS radio in my rig this summer, but need to think of a good way to quickly switch between the radio systems. Not exactly a ton of real estate in my cab for two radios, let alone one :)

The extra cool thing is GMRS is already the standard for vehicles like side by sides, and my snowmobile group uses it as well. Usually they are broadcasting at 2W max to avoid making their users get a license to be legal. I like that if someone doesn't want to spend on a license and high power radio, they can get an entry-level low technical barrier setup and be able to communicate with those that decide to go into a higher power setup. So this way on my annual holiday trip to the desert I can communicate with my brother on the trail, and if I get enough power I can still communicate with him even when he goes 90mph over the whoops that I have to take at 5 mph :)

[Tom]

Ty I have three mounted radios in my rig full time. Plenty of space

[Jim]

`some day I'll get kitted out like Tom is...

[4x4JeePmaNthINg]

How accessible would GMRS be vs ham? I know CB is more line of sight oriented.

Tom,
Do you run all three radio types?

[Tom]

How accessible would GMRS be vs ham? I know CB is more line of sight oriented.

Tom,
Do you run all three radio types?
All radio is line of sight though one does get a bit of curvature as waves pass over the horizon.

I run CB, and two ham radios. One ham is dedicated aprs. I tout ham because of all the repeater. I inow gmrs has repeaters as well. I don’t believe they are as abundant as ham repeaters. One example of why I liike ham repeaters. I was on a ridge SW of Poncho Springs. With a 5 watt baofeng I communicated via repeater to someone in Denver.

With aprs one can track realtime my location. As well I can send/receive via radiio email and sms messages with non radio users.

I also have FRS/GMRS handhelds. My gmrs license is expired. Of the three systems ham has the clearer communications (noise/static).

[Java]

I just ditched my CB because it was a pain and I ended up leaving it home all the time. I've had three different mounts that all shook offroad and it takes up a good deal of dashboard real estate. I've ripped the antenna wiring off atleast three times, the power cord once, and I had a magnetic antenna that was also a pain- the wire had to go out somewhere so there was always a window cracked, and it got knocked off on the trail a couple of times. I have a small HAM somewhere, but so few other people have had them on the trail that I ended up leaving that home too, although that does seem to be changing. I really like the FRS / GMRS radios, they're tiny, great reception and are cheap enough not to care about.

[4x4JeePmaNthINg]

All radio is line of sight though one does get a bit of curvature as waves pass over the horizon.

I run CB, and two ham radios. One ham is dedicated aprs. I tout ham because of all the repeater. I inow gmrs has repeaters as well. I don’t believe they are as abundant as ham repeaters. One example of why I liike ham repeaters. I was on a ridge SW of Poncho Springs. With a 5 watt baofeng I communicated via repeater to someone in Denver.

With aprs one can track realtime my location. As well I can send/receive via radiio email and sms messages with non radio users.

This is intriguing, i didnt know you could send text/email via radio. Im reading they make dual receive radios for what you have set up with the two i think? Just way more expensive. Im not sure my folks would do the test for ham, but if this would open up contact to me if they were in the noco mountains (boulder-red feather), this is a promising option. Heck I might do this just for that ability.
I found a video of a local guy (justinking) that reviews a kenwood ham radio that has this aprs ability, and GPS(? What haha!) It seems his go to for reaching out, but maybe he can use other frequencies for emergency services? I sure would like to try this aprs to sms, thats huge for communication if you can readily tell family where you are.

GMRS sounds worth while to, once the license price drops to 35$.

I wonder why you cant just have an all in one amateur radio license that allows all these platforms. It would seem to me that anyone going the length to be responsible and test for this, should be able to operate all platforms once learned? Ill have to read more on this.

[Max]

https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/m73jhg/this_meme_was_made_by_the_amateur_gmrs_gang

[derf]

This is intriguing, i didnt know you could send text/email via radio. Im reading they make dual receive radios for what you have set up with the two i think?

I have a Kenwood TM-D710GA (https://www.kenwood.com/usa/com/amateur/tm-d710ga/) in my Cherokee right now. It has the GPS receiver built in to the display unit and it's all set up to do APRS. I have one of the two channels devoted to APRS. The other I use for regular talking back and forth. I don't really pay attention to the text messages. I have looked into hooking up a computer to the COM port in the base unit but it's inconvenient to try to hook up to a tablet. Perhaps the next generation will just do bluetooth directly. I run a 1/4 wave antenna in an NMO mount through a hole in the roof. It works pretty well.

I also run a CB radio. A Cobra 75. That's my primary trail comms radio since CB is what most people use.

Not too long ago I picked up a pair of GMRS handhelds. I did get my license so I'm also looking at adding a 50W base station in the Jeep along with the other two radios.

[4x4JeePmaNthINg]

I have a Kenwood TM-D710GA (https://www.kenwood.com/usa/com/amateur/tm-d710ga/) in my Cherokee right now. It has the GPS receiver built in to the display unit and it's all set up to do APRS. I have one of the two channels devoted to APRS. The other I use for regular talking back and forth. I don't really pay attention to the text messages. I have looked into hooking up a computer to the COM port in the base unit but it's inconvenient to try to hook up to a tablet. Perhaps the next generation will just do bluetooth directly. I run a 1/4 wave antenna in an NMO mount through a hole in the roof. It works pretty well.

I also run a CB radio. A Cobra 75. That's my primary trail comms radio since CB is what most people use.

Not too long ago I picked up a pair of GMRS handhelds. I did get my license so I'm also looking at adding a 50W base station in the Jeep along with the other two radios.
Do you speak clearly in the mountains with the ham? Or is that why you added gmrs.

[Trevor?]

Perhaps the next generation will just do bluetooth directly.

I've got a Mobilinkd TNC3 that's pretty slick and interfaces well with APRSDroid on my phone via bluetooth. So far I've just plugged it into a handheld radio and rubberbanded them together to make a bit of an APRS grenade, and I have a cable somewhere that would allow me to plug it into my IC-7100 but I haven't tried that yet. If your kenwood has a data port something like that might work well.

I've also gotten it to work with a chromebook running Linux and Xastir (pushes up glasses). Not really suited for mobile use, but it was fun to tinker with.

How does that SMS to APRS system work if you're out of range of a digipeater or igate? I noticed a ton of repetitive packets last weekend that seemed to be looking for some sort of acknowledgement from an SMS message. Maybe someone had just set an aggressive path, but it seamed to be bouncing around between digipeaters and tying up the frequency.

[derf]

Do you speak clearly in the mountains with the ham? Or is that why you added gmrs.

The ham is great. If there is someone else to talk to. The repeaters come and go depending on if there is a mountain in between.

I got GMRS because that seems to be the way trail comms are going and I want to be ready.

[derf]

I've got a Mobilinkd TNC3 that's pretty slick and interfaces well with APRSDroid on my phone via bluetooth. So far I've just plugged it into a handheld radio and rubberbanded them together to make a bit of an APRS grenade, and I have a cable somewhere that would allow me to plug it into my IC-7100 but I haven't tried that yet. If your kenwood has a data port something like that might work well.

The port is RS232, which doesn't work well with a tablet USB port. I haven't found anything that works well enough to get them to talk through the cable. But I haven't tried very hard. There are also bluetooth to RS232 adapters but I haven't put much effort into getting one of those to work. Like I say, I hope the next generation of radios adds bluetooth inside the radio to facilitate talking with a tablet for APRSDroid.

[Tom]

The port is RS232, which doesn't work well with a tablet USB port. I haven't found anything that works well enough to get them to talk through the cable. But I haven't tried very hard. There are also bluetooth to RS232 adapters but I haven't put much effort into getting one of those to work. Like I say, I hope the next generation of radios adds bluetooth inside the radio to facilitate talking with a tablet for APRSDroid.
My aprs uses a baogeng uv5r, mobilelink tnc, a cheap cell phone for aprsdroid, and a 40 watt amp.

[Trevor?]

I couldn't help but pull a manual for that Kenwood radio of yours. That thing is pretty slick. It looks like there is a data port on the back of the radio body next to the PC com port that would provide sound in/out to something like a PC sound card or a KISS TNC like the Mobilinkd. It also looks like your radio basically has its own TNC built right in as well.

Without reading further to know how easy it would be to configure, and whether you can get a PTT line setup through that dataport or if you would have to use some kind of VOX function, it looks like the connections are there to run something like one of these little bluetooth boxes like Tom and I have, or build a cable with a TRRS jack and plug that straight into the headphone/mike port on a tablet or phone. You would be bypassing all of the built-in APRS features and built in GPS. The mobilinkd or APRDDroid software relies on GPS from the phone or tablet. In short, probably possible if you were interested in a project.

As for HAM and GMRS: is it just me or is there much more repeater traffic on the 2 meter VHF band than on 70cm UHF.. at least with analog FM? Between the linked repeater systems like Colorado Connection or the other VHF repeaters in the Denver area you can usually find someone talking. When I scan 70cm I find far less activity unless its digital... and I am only able to decode D-star which no one in this area seems to use. Maybe its different to the north or to the south. There is a GMRS repeater I hear in my area on channel 15 I think. I hear it ID, but I have yet to hear anyone use it. Usually if I scan GMRS in my neighborhood I just pick up little kids on FRS radios, or once a couple of neighbors talking about BBQ recipes. Scanning GMRS on the trail though I do hear more people using it. I wouldnt say there is a clarity differance between HAM and GMRS if you are comparing analog FM signals. With a tech licence for HAM you can use the 2m VHF band, the 70cm UHF band... plus less popular bands like 6m, 1.25m, 23cm etc etc. GMRS is only UHF. There is MURS which is VHF but that's pretty low power and limited to handhelds. I suppose it depends more on what exactly your goals are.

On a side note I picked up a net on 2 meter SSB last sunday night. That was cool. Folks from Thorton down to Parker and further were all connecting via simplex alone. I bet if I had a horizontally polarized antenna at a decent height I could have heard stations from further away. Not bad for VHF.

[Tom]

I couldn't help but pull a manual for that Kenwood radio of yours. That thing is pretty slick. It looks like there is a data port on the back of the radio body next to the PC com port that would provide sound in/out to something like a PC sound card or a KISS TNC like the Mobilinkd. It also looks like your radio basically has its own TNC built right in as well.

Without reading further to know how easy it would be to configure, and whether you can get a PTT line setup through that dataport or if you would have to use some kind of VOX function, it looks like the connections are there to run something like one of these little bluetooth boxes like Tom and I have, or build a cable with a TRRS jack and plug that straight into the headphone/mike port on a tablet or phone. You would be bypassing all of the built-in APRS features and built in GPS. The mobilinkd or APRDDroid software relies on GPS from the phone or tablet. In short, probably possible if you were interested in a project.

As for HAM and GMRS: is it just me or is there much more repeater traffic on the 2 meter VHF band than on 70cm UHF.. at least with analog FM? Between the linked repeater systems like Colorado Connection or the other VHF repeaters in the Denver area you can usually find someone talking. When I scan 70cm I find far less activity unless its digital... and I am only able to decode D-star which no one in this area seems to use. Maybe its different to the north or to the south. There is a GMRS repeater I hear in my area on channel 15 I think. I hear it ID, but I have yet to hear anyone use it. Usually if I scan GMRS in my neighborhood I just pick up little kids on FRS radios, or once a couple of neighbors talking about BBQ recipes. Scanning GMRS on the trail though I do hear more people using it. I wouldnt say there is a clarity differance between HAM and GMRS if you are comparing analog FM signals. With a tech licence for HAM you can use the 2m VHF band, the 70cm UHF band... plus less popular bands like 6m, 1.25m, 23cm etc etc. GMRS is only UHF. There is MURS which is VHF but that's pretty low power and limited to handhelds. I suppose it depends more on what exactly your goals are.

On a side note I picked up a net on 2 meter SSB last sunday night. That was cool. Folks from Thorton down to Parker and further were all connecting via simplex alone. I bet if I had a horizontally polarized antenna at a decent height I could have heard stations from further away. Not bad for VHF.
2 meter does seem to be more active than 70cm though I don’t do much ham except on the trail. SOTA etc.

[derf]

I couldn't help but pull a manual for that Kenwood radio of yours. That thing is pretty slick. It looks like there is a data port on the back of the radio body next to the PC com port that would provide sound in/out to something like a PC sound card or a KISS TNC like the Mobilinkd. It also looks like your radio basically has its own TNC built right in as well.

Without reading further to know how easy it would be to configure, and whether you can get a PTT line setup through that dataport or if you would have to use some kind of VOX function, it looks like the connections are there to run something like one of these little bluetooth boxes like Tom and I have, or build a cable with a TRRS jack and plug that straight into the headphone/mike port on a tablet or phone. You would be bypassing all of the built-in APRS features and built in GPS. The mobilinkd or APRDDroid software relies on GPS from the phone or tablet. In short, probably possible if you were interested in a project.

Yeah, you just go through the menus and set some details and it does everything to get you working APRS. You can see other people showing up on the screen as their packets come through. It will even do packet forwarding if you enable it. The only thing missing for me is a nice map display so I can see everyone in range on a screen.

I will say that APRS enthusiasm seems to be dropping off amid privacy concerns. If you make it to a digipeater, anyone in the world will know exactly where you are the whole time. All they have to do is go to https://aprs.fi and they can see everyone all over the world.

[Tom]

I will say that APRS enthusiasm seems to be dropping off amid privacy concerns. If you make it to a digipeater, anyone in the world will know exactly where you are the whole time. All they have to do is go to https://aprs.fi (https://aprs.fi/) and they can see everyone all over the world
Agree they can but how many non hams have actually heard of aprs. And do I care if they know where I am at when off roading? Personally i don’t.

[4runner.Ric]

late here, but these are sweet from what Ive researched https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt275-micromobile-two-way-radio/ I dont have one, but the guys i wheel with have been talking about getting them. We generally run those little baofeng on a MURS ch. (i think lol) we dont use the HAM channels as none of us have a license, I personally have a yeasu ft-7900 hard mounted.

[TyTheJeepGuy]

late here, but these are sweet from what Ive researched https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt275-micromobile-two-way-radio/ I dont have one, but the guys i wheel with have been talking about getting them.


I just installed this radio into my JL wrangler. CoolTech has a kit that I ordered, but the cable is delayed. Over the weekend I was making contacts from even just the tiny little antenna that comes with the radio that I just magnetically stuck on a bolt on the hood. I do have a license though so I can try to use some of the repeaters. Since the license is halving in price to 35 bucks for the whole immediate family I think its a great thing to get.

[TyTheJeepGuy]

Edit: After measuring the distance on google maps I doubt I was using that repeater... maybe just coincidence that the contact was on the same channel as the repeater's reported channel. There is however no obstructions to that direction and the contact was coming in pretty weak.

Just wanted to share, that with only the included antenna installed, I am almost certain that I made contact with someone over this repeater while I was at RAM offroad park, which is just east of Colorado Springs. I was on channel 17 which matches the repeater's 462.600MHz. I didn't check with the contact I made where he was at, he was too busy spreading misinformation on covid vaccines. I'm sharing this because I think that is astounding range and it was super easy to use the repeater with an out of the box setup.

The only thing that has me suspicious that I was actually making use of the repeater is that the myGMRS repeater map entry for this repeater says that it is not yet online.

[Jim]

Measuring (Google Earth) RAM Offroad Park to that marker (2/3 of the way east between Lamar and Granada) is right at 130 miles.