FR4x4 default radio channels - what shall we use?

[Jim]

Hello Folks,

With a continued move to add radio types from the basic CB radio where the common channel is #4, what channels might we default to for each type of radio. I'd then post that info on the RSVP / calendar entry creation form. We would not _need_ to stick to any channel, but these might be channels we'd use as we find them to be useful.

In addition to channel, would be any privacy code or any other sub-configuration we should consider.

CB: ??
FRS: ??
GMRS: ??
HAM: ??
Other ???

Generally, CB channel 4 is our long used channel. I can see a change to this as other groups also use channel 4 - this has found us moving to a different channel mid-run to avoid chatter from the other group.

For all of these radio types I would wish to find channels that are available to all radios of that type and might be lesser used (less interference with other users).

What say ye?

[Tom]

CB: 4
FRS: 4
GMRS: ??
HAM: 146.520. (2 meter natl calling freq). On occasion this might be busy, Then we would decide to roll a couple steps either side.
Other ??​


no ctss or other privacy codes. They can be almost impossible to change manually on many cheap Chinese radios without using software.

[Jim]

On occasion this might be busy

One of the points of this discussion is to lean to channels that are not expected to be busy - to save slight hassle to have everyone switch mid-stream. My pref is to settle on a channel that would (hopefully) be less busy.

[Tom]

One of the points of this discussion is to lean to channels that are not expected to be busy - to save slight hassle to have everyone switch mid-stream. My pref is to settle on a channel that would (hopefully) be less busy.
Its not often busy from personal experience. Its also designed/designated as the preferred ham 2 meter simplex freq for starting conversations. Ham operators know this. They also enjoy chatting with others on said freq. SOTA AND POTA use this freqand hamms enjoy contact with them giving them points in their challenge.

[Tom]

Could also do
146.550
or
146.490

either side of natl freq.

[speedkills]

I’m not sure which channels are repeater channels for frs/gmrs but it would probably be good to avoid those.

[Steve-O]

For the FRS channels, I feel like it would take trial and error to find a channel that other people just tend not to use. It also may just be a game of chance, with equal probability of other people being on any channel we pick. I wouldn't say no to ctcss so quick. Yes it's a pain when Chirp or some other software needs to be used, but if we commit to a dedicated channel with the addition of a ctcss code and use it for every run, the probability of someone else also being on that channel/code is infinitesimal due to the number of codes, and folks with programmable radios will only have to set it up once. Also, it is very easy to set up on some handhelds such as the Motorola T600s a few of us have picked up. Not sure how easy it is on actual FRS/GMRS radio unit

[speedkills]

Without any testing I'll nominate channel 6 for gmrs and frs. 1 and 4 have both been more frequently busy in my limited experience. In general I think 1-7 make sense as they are the lower power channels for gmrs and these radios seem to get out just fine. https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/FRS/GMRS_combined_channel_chart

[Steve-O]

Shane, what ch were we on at Rainbow Falls?

[speedkills]

7 I think.

[Trevor?]

I’m not sure which channels are repeater channels for frs/gmrs but it would probably be good to avoid those.

15-22 are the repeater outputs, but they're fine to use for FRS or GMRS simplex. I don't think there are many repeaters in the same areas as many jeep trails in CO, and even at my house where there are around 5 repeaters in range they are pretty quiet most of the time.

I'd guess 15-22 would attract more people of the mantra; "more is better", leaving 1-7 less used. I've been trying to scan the band when I am out but I haven't been out on the trails much yet with these radios. Certainly if multiple groups are on these 5W channels they can be spaced a little closer before they start to bother eachother compared to 15-50W on 15-22. If one of the high power channels were to be particularly useful it would be before you arrive at the trailhead... if you wanted to try and catch up with people on the highway. You could recommend separate highway and trail channels in that case.

It would be simpler to run without CTCSS and DCS codes. If it ever gets annoying in the future with chatter from other groups, the recommendation could always be revisited.

EDIT: Reading back through this, there's a chance some folks may not realize that since the FRS/GMRS rule changes in 2017 the FRS and GMRS channel numbering have been standardized and are shared between services. If we want to recommend default GMRS and FRS channels, it makes a lot of sense that they be the same. If you are using an older GMRS radio this may not be the case but all of your channels will match up with an FRS channel.

https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/FRS/GMRS_combined_channel_chart#Old_FRS.2FGMRS_Channel s

Channels 8-14 are specified for handheald radios by rule, and would not be accessible by GMRS mobile radios (think wired mic and external antenna). These channels are also limited to 1/2 watt and may not make much sense to use as a default trail channel for vehicle to vehicle purposes.

[Tom]

A thought for FRS/GMRS. We had a bunch of external chatter on frs channel 4 Sunday on Kingston. It wqs suggested we use privacy codes aka ctcss tones on non frs/gmrs radios.

My thought on that is that we use the reverse code of the channel. My old radios have 22 frs/gmrs channels.
My proposal would be on frs channel 1 we use privacy code 22. For channel 2 privacy code 21, etc
3:20, 4:19, 5:18, 6:17 ... 21:2, 22:1

That way we could have everything set and just choose a channel.
It would make it simple for those of us not using frs radios that we have to program via computer.

Thoughts?

[Trevor?]

Why not pick one ctcss code/tone that could be used on any channel? Seems equally likely to have the desired effect. Also, the privacy code numbers aren't always the same across radio manufacturers. Picking one code/tone makes the task of getting everyone on the same code/tone easier.

I'll admit to some bias here. My KG805G does not use codes but instead you enter the CTCSS tone frequency directly.

[speedkills]

Do we want to leave any without privacy codes? I'm thinking of if people show up with radios that don't support them, or like me without a manual telling them how to program them, it could be handy to have a fall back channel or two that didn't have a privacy code. My feelings on this aren't very strong though so if we aren't too concerned about the programming aspect then reverse channel seems fine, or even same code as channel to be super simple.

[Jim]

My perspective, with regard to folks talking about difficulty using radios where setting a sub-channel / privacy / etc can be difficult..

1) find a channel that is of lesser interest/use (no channel 4) - and keep it no privacy channel - and have that as a "first use" channel selection (one that works well FRS/GMRS).
2) perhaps we could also settle on an optional channel should the primary have too much activity - a channel with some privacy code

Having two posted channels in such a condition seems acceptable. We'd roll with the "more open to all" primary channel to only switch to a second choice when the primary is too chatty - but some folk's radios might not be able to participate.

Good discussion. Please continue.

[Tom]

Why not pick one ctcss code/tone that could be used on any channel? Seems equally likely to have the desired effect. Also, the privacy code numbers aren't always the same across radio manufacturers. Picking one code/tone makes the task of getting everyone on the same code/tone easier.

I'll admit to some bias here. My KG805G does not use codes but instead you enter the CTCSS tone frequency directly.
You make a lot of sense. Your wqy is better.
This gives most of the ctcss / privacyvcode translation https://www.k0tfu.org/reference/frs-gmrs-privacy-codes-demystified.html down a ways.

Hmm was writing response as Jim was writing his and Shanes.

[speedkills]

I like the single code for all channels idea the best myself as well, along with maybe a channel or two with no codes, maybe 1 and 22 or something like that.

[Bob]

I’m not in favor of privacy codes, and think it’s much better to just select a clear channel and no code. As has been mentioned there are opportunities for confusion and some radios don’t support them, and there are also two different types of privacy codes, tone (CTCSS) and digital (DCS).

In addition all that privacy codes do is keep the squelch closed unless the correct code is received. They can’t prevent interference from simultaneous transmissions by two groups on the same channel, even though using different codes. It’s possible to miss a transmission from someone in your group if another transmission is occurring at the same time from another group, and you might not even realize there is another group on the same channel.

[speedkills]

Channel hopping is certainly the most compatible and easiest solution. We could table the discussion for a month, be a little more aggressive about switching channels and see how that works out. The only issue I could see with it really is losing people on switch or not being able to find a clear channel. Worth a shot to see if either of those become real issues in practice.

[derf]

Channel hopping is the way we solved it with CB. And I've been known to change frequencies on ham when two groups were using the same one. It's a simple solution to a simple problem.

[Jim]

What do you mean by "channel hopping"?

[Tom]

What do you mean by "channel hopping"?
Changing channels when others are on the one you are using.

Its what we did on Kingston but Trent suggest privacy codes.

[derf]

What do you mean by "channel hopping"?

We all agree to change to a new frequency when there's too much traffic.

[Jim]

Thx.

This is directly tied to the purpose of the thread
1) To find channels (for each radio type in use) that are hopefully of lower use so that we don't need to switch
and
2) If a switch is to happen, a defined alternative to move to (this does not eliminate further switching, for a channel / privacy setting, should 1 and 2 not give good result)


Aside from this big picture goal, a sub-discussion is do we want to involve privacy codes. I'm seeing pro/con issues where, in my mind, not using them (or putting them to use as a last resort) might be the choice (vs using them as first choice / by default / always).

[Trevor?]

Rather than try to come to some kind of official club recommendation now, maybe we should try a couple of runs using squelch codes and see how it works?

I agree that using squelch codes adds a layer of complexity, and that they don't allow for simultanious transmission on the channel, but how likely is that to actually cause a problem for us? It depends on a lot of factors.

[Tom]

Rather than try to come to some kind of official club recommendation now, maybe we should try a couple of runs using squelch codes and see how it works?

I agree that using squelch codes adds a layer of complexity, and that they don't allow for simultanious transmission on the channel, but how likely is that to actually cause a problem for us? It depends on a lot of factors.
You introduced a new term that may be confusing to some. I am assuming by squelch codes you mean privacy/ctcss codes. I am leaving dcs out for the moment.

I have set privacy code 4/77 hz codes for my red cone run on frs/gmrs 4

[derf]

It's probably not worth over thinking it....

Fast forward to 1:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgBDakPv_g&t=83s

[Trevor?]

Tom, My mistake. Sorry about that. Im using "privacy code/tone" and "squelch code" interchangeably and that probably could be confusing.

[Jim]

I have set privacy code 4/77 hz codes for my red cone run on frs/gmrs 4

Then we come'round to those asking what the heck is this privacy code stuff? 4/77 hz??? I can select some decimal number after I select a channel on the green little walkie-talkie thingy - but the hz component??? `splain plz. (yes, I'm being a bit of an arse in asking but the question is on the table)

[Tom]

Then we come'round to those asking what the heck is this privacy code stuff? 4/77 hz??? I can select some decimal number after I select a channel on the green little walkie-talkie thingy - but the hz component??? `splain plz. (yes, I'm being a bit of an arse in asking but the question is on the table)
Ok Jim I will. The attached images should help.
What we are discussing is a ctcss tone which has a freq associated (hz). On ham radios and many business radios one has to set the ctcss tone in hz (77). On frs and gmrs most radio manufacturers has made this simple by calling said tone a privacy code. On most but not all privacy code 4 maps to the 77 hz ctcss tone. Look at the attached image and find the 77 hz. You will find that the common privacy code is 4, but that there are some that map to something different. The image I attached comes from the link I posted previously in this thread. (https://www.k0tfu.org/reference/frs-gmrs-privacy-codes-demystified.html)

I am also attaching an image of my frs radio tuned to channel 4 with privacy code of 4, and an image of my UHF radio with 77hz ctcss tone set in the programming app. Both accomplish the same identical function.

Hope this clarifies it a bit for you.

[Jim]

Yes. Thank you.

I didn't realize/know the "number" was associated with a frequency. Slowly, y'all will educate me.

[FINOCJ]

Yes. Thank you.

I didn't realize/know the "number" was associated with a frequency. Slowly, y'all will educate me.

As some of us really are learning...this privacy code 'number' (4) isn't the channel in this case. In toms blue walkie thingy picture, its channel 4 (big # on left) and privacy code 04 (smaller superscripted #). The privacy code 04 relates to the frequency of 77 Hz?

[speedkills]

This Smokey and the Bandit clip led to me watching a half hour documentary on the movie on youtube. Thanks.

[Tom]

As some of us really are learning...this privacy code 'number' (4) isn't the channel in this case. In toms blue walkie thingy picture, its channel 4 (big # on left) and privacy code 04 (smaller superscripted #). The privacy code 04 relates to the frequency of 77 Hz?
Yes, but its not the transmission frequency. Its an underlying tone on the transmission that causes the squelch to open on the receiving radio. No tone, squelch doesn’t open, and you do hear anyone that does not have the privacy code set.

[Bob]

The privacy code tones are sub-audible. You don’t hear them because they are below the radio audio amplifier frequency response. But the radio control circuitry hears them and opens the squelch.

They weren’t developed for “privacy”, that’s a BS marketing term for consumer radios. They are used in two-way radio systems to keep radio noise and interference from electrical equipment or strong adjacent channel stations in the area from opening the squelch and being a nuisance.

For repeaters, the tones keep the repeater input squelch from opening on noise or intermodulation from other strong signals nearby and needlessly transmitting the noise on the repeater output frequency.

[speedkills]

That's what I would like about them I think, I don't have much problem with missed transmissions from someone being talked over by a person not in our group, from what I have seen we usually switch channels because we are hearing sounds or people we don't care to listen to.

[Jim]

Another Q: Scanning the thread I'm seeing these terms: Squelch codes, Privacy codes, CTCSS, DCS. I'm of the thought that Squelch codes, Privacy codes, CTCSS are different names for the same thing where DCS is different, yes? The arena for these looks to be FRS/GMRS radios.

[derf]

Yeah, squelch tones go way back. It's a low frequency tone that the transmitter adds when you key the mic and start talking. It's down in the subwoofer frequencies where you can't hear it.

Squelch is just an adjustment you have on the radio. It keeps the speaker turned off until the strength of the incoming signal is strong enough. So all the background noise doesn't just keep coming through your speaker. When someone is actually talking on the radio, it's strong enough and the speaker turns on.

A squelch tone adds a feature that keeps the speaker squelched unless that squelch tone is being transmitted. So if someone is talking but doesn't have the squelch tone, you won't hear it because the speaker will stay off. If they do add the tone then you will hear them when they talk.

You can do the same thing with a digital code embedded in the squelch tone. It takes the tone one step further. So even if there's a tone at that frequency, it has to be digitally encoded with the right sequence to activate the speaker.

None of these give you any privacy. All they do is let you block out things you don't want to hear. But the advertisers sell them as "privacy codes", which is misleading.

For privacy, you need to actually encode the transmission with a key. Of course, the other side needs the key so they can unencode it at the other end. If you don't have the key, all you hear is scrambled noise. That's as close to true privacy as you're going to get.

I generally don't run squelch codes unless I need to for a repeater. If there's traffic on the channel I'm trying to use, I just pick another channel if I can.

[Tom]

Another Q: Scanning the thread I'm seeing these terms: Squelch codes, Privacy codes, CTCSS, DCS. I'm of the thought that Squelch codes, Privacy codes, CTCSS are different names for the same thing where DCS is different, yes? The arena for these looks to be FRS/GMRS radios.
DTS is a digital version of what we are talking about, but as far as the user is concerned it functions much the same. Yes they are all different names for the same thing.

[TDash]

geez i sure am glad i didn't need to know any of this or take a test for my fcc license, y'all are going real deep with tones

[FINOCJ]

If there's traffic on the channel I'm trying to use, I just pick another channel if I can.

If there is traffic on the window I am yelling out of, I usually just yell out of passenger window....
seriously, this has been pretty insightful....As I rarely have a radio on board (unless handed to by someone else), I guess I don't really have a feel for how busy the radio channels are. Is it so busy that just finding another channel is difficult?

[Tom]

If there is traffic on the window I am yelling out of, I usually just yell out of passenger window....
seriously, this has been pretty insightful....As I rarely have a radio on board (unless handed to by someone else), I guess I don't really have a feel for how busy the radio channels are. Is it so busy that just finding another channel is difficult?
Finding is not difficult. Getting everyone on it can be cumbersome.

[derf]

If there is traffic on the window I am yelling out of, I usually just yell out of passenger window....
seriously, this has been pretty insightful....As I rarely have a radio on board (unless handed to by someone else), I guess I don't really have a feel for how busy the radio channels are. Is it so busy that just finding another channel is difficult?

CB has 40 channels. I can't remember a time when we couldn't find an empty channel. Even in Ouray/Teluride where there were multiple groups on trails really close to each other.

I haven't used FRS/GMRS much yet but there are many channels to choose from.

And, of course, ham has tons of frequencies available with fewer operators so it seems like there's always room to find a place to chat.

[Trevor?]

After looking at the resource Tom posted and reading through the various inputs from folks here, it sounds like if we wanted to use a privacy code then CTCSS is likely the way to go. It seems to be more consistently numbered by the most common FRS/GMRS radio manufactures like Midland, Motorola, and Cobra just to name a few. I think the "Privacy Code" term, while not 100% literally accurate, is the most commonly used term in the manuals for these major manufacturers. I also think it could be helpful to specify the CTCSS tone frequency as well for those using less common radios which should then cover almost everyone.

So an example, per the "Common" column in the previously shared chart:

FRS/GMRS Channel 6, Privacy Code 14 (107.2Hz CTCSS)

or a shorter version:
Channel 6, Code 14 (107.2Hz)

Do people feel like that's clear enough?



Not to hijack the tread but been looking at getting a decent radio. Anyone have a link or model number that has worked well for them?

Are you looking for a handheld or something to mount on your dash? Do you have a rough idea of how much you want to spend?

[Tom]

After looking at the resource Tom posted and reading through the various inputs from folks here, it sounds like if we wanted to use a privacy code then CTCSS is likely the way to go. It seems to be more consistently numbered by the most common FRS/GMRS radio manufactures like Midland, Motorola, and Cobra just to name a few. I think the "Privacy Code" term, while not 100% literally accurate, is the most commonly used term in the manuals for these major manufacturers. I also think it could be helpful to specify the CTCSS tone frequency as well for those using less common radios which should then cover almost everyone.

So an example, per the "Common" column in the previously shared chart:

FRS/GMRS Channel 6, Privacy Code 14 (107.2Hz CTCSS)

or a shorter version:
Channel 6, Code 14 (107.2Hz)

Do people feel like that's clear enough?




Are you looking for a handheld or something to mount on your dash? Do you have a rough idea of how much you want to spend?
The shorter version is just about what I have on the Red Cone Webster pass planned run.
(FRS/GMRS channel 4: privacy code 4, 77hz)

[Jim]

Do people feel like that's clear enough?

Yes - now that I understand the frequency aspect that Tom explained to me.


My take, for recommended channels (this is just my offering, I'm trying to get some focus):

CB: 33, alternative 27
Why, 33's far away from channel 1, 4, 16 [4x4], 9 [emergency]. It's "obscure" (not a top-of-the-head common choice number) and is not nearby 4 or 16 (for those dropping/upping one channel). Alternative, should 33 be busy, 27 is a somewhat close unusual number. I realize that CB might quickly become obsolete.


FRS/GMRS: Channel 6, Code 14 (107.2Hz), alternative Channel 2, no privacy code
Tom's chart in post #30 (https://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?28674-FR4x4-default-radio-channels-what-shall-we-use&p=344029#post344029) is handy - to use a privacy code that spans the radio types - code 4 and 14 do this. I'm listing FRS/GMRS as one entity - is this reasonable or should they be broken out?


HAM: 146.550, alternative 146.490
(either side of natl freq) - What Tom said in post #5

[Tom]

My take, for recommended channels (this is just my offering, I'm trying to get some focus):

CB: 33, alternative 27
Why, 33's far away from channel 1, 4, 16 [4x4], 9 [emergency]. It's "obscure" (not a top-of-the-head common choice number) and is not nearby 4 or 16 (for those dropping/upping one channel). Alternative, should 33 be busy, 27 is a somewhat close unusual number. I realize that CB might quickly become obsolete.


FRS/GMRS: Channel 6, Code 14 (107.2Hz), alternative Channel 2, no privacy code
Tom's chart in post #30 (https://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?28674-FR4x4-default-radio-channels-what-shall-we-use&p=344029#post344029) is handy - to use a privacy code that spans the radio types - code 4 and 14 do this. I'm listing FRS/GMRS as one entity - is this reasonable or should they be broken out?


HAM: 146.550, alternative 146.490
(either side of natl freq) - What Tom said in post #5

I am comfortable with those channels/freqs. Yes frs/gmrs should be treated the same since they use the same frequencies and can communicate with each other.

I will change up the Red Cone run to use these and we can see how it goes. Trail by fire.:lmao:

[ForumAdmin]

Select posts, asking for FRS / GMRS radio recommendations have been moved to their own, new, thread:
www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?28772-Recommended-FRS-amp-GMRS-radios (https://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?28772-Recommended-FRS-amp-GMRS-radios)
.

[Jim]

I will change up the Red Cone run to use these and we can see how it goes.

:thumb:

I set my two FRS radios for primary and alternate... If they need to be changed to something better - so be it.

[Bob]

That's what I would like about them I think, I don't have much problem with missed transmissions from someone being talked over by a person not in our group, from what I have seen we usually switch channels because we are hearing sounds or people we don't care to listen to.
The "privacy" code will do that. But it will also prevent you from knowing if you are missing a transmission when the other group transmits simultaneously. You won't hear anything at all, whereas without the privacy code you would at least hear the other group and realize there was a conflict. Changing the channel instead of relying on privacy codes solves both problems, in my view.

Sorry for a long post, but let me give a possible example:

Suppose another group is close behind ours. We don't realize they are on the same frequency because our code is different from theirs, or they aren't using codes, so we don't hear them.

The front vehicles in our group can communicate fine with each other because their signals are stronger relative to the other group in back. But for the rear vehicles, the other group's signals are stronger and those transmissions block the reception of the more distant and weaker transmission of the first few vehicles in our group - if they happen to transmit simultaneously. We don't suspect this is happening, because our privacy code never opens the squelch to hear the other group.

FRS/GMRS radios use frequency modulation which has a "capture effect" of the strongest signal, and a weaker signal isn't received. With amplitude modulation such with CB, you know there was a conflict because you hear a squeal or mixed voices when two people transmit simultaneously, regardless of signal strengths. Aircraft radios use AM because of this and the vital need to never miss a transmission without knowing it has happened so that a repeat can be done.

Now obviously this is not an immediate safety issue for us as it is for aircraft, and we have a protocol to always keep the vehicle behind in view. But it could cause problems, and in my view is an unnecessary complication when there are so many channels to choose from.

If there were so many groups cruising around nearby that changing channels doesn't work to avoid hearing them, then using privacy codes would result in many missed messages because there would be many simultaneous transmissions, making the situation even worse.

[Tom]

Good points Bob.

[Trevor?]

I think the situation Bob highlights could be mitigated by good practices. If the lead vehicle checks in every so often with the tail vehicle, as has generally been the case, then we would be pretty likely to realize something is wrong and stop to check it out. If we're all trying to keep eachother in sight anyway (make sure you can see the person behind you) then we're less likely to leave anyone behind who is having an problem... which is one of the things the radios are trying to help us do.
Also, and I recognize I'm in the minority here, but I could program my Icom to scan whatever subset of channels with and without privacy codes. Anyone else with an extra handheld set to scan with the codes off could get a similar capability although with much more chatter to put up with. If they hear a bunch of extra chatter on the selected channel they could alert the group.

[Tom]

https://youtu.be/Wsw1rMEPSGE

[Jim]

... that ForumAdmin guy needs to update the RSVP page with new info ...