OHV Troubles

[Java]

I would love to see these banned from most trails too, if not the whole state. I don't like the Tincup area anymore because of them, and T-33A / Bunce is so trashed and torn up from the rentals that it's not much fun to run those anymore. It's only the people making money from them that are protesting the bans, noone else wants them. It's just like jetskis in Florida, places like North lake in Hollywood banned them because of the noise and bad driving.

Off-highway vehicles are revving up locals (in a bad way) in Colorado’s remote mountain towns. Inundated with by go-anywhere motorized vehicles, local governments are struggling to find a balance between welcoming the spending by “motorheads” and keeping their towns from resembling sets for a Mad Max movie.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/17/off-highway-vehicles-conflict-colorado-mountains/

Confusion around where off-highway vehicles can be legally driven led to a new bill being signed by Colorado Governor Jared Polis on May 7, 2021. According to the bill, off-highway vehicles are banned on all public streets and highways in Colorado with a few limited exceptions. The ban applies regardless of where the vehicle is registered or titled, including vehicles like ATVs, four wheelers, side-by-sides, and more.

https://www.outtherecolorado.com/news/off-highway-vehicles-banned-on-all-colorado-roads-with-limited-exceptions/article_5a0aa45a-b41e-11eb-a059-93be3bc69b7d.html

[RockyMtRebel]

I agree

[newracer]

Ban them, then we will be next.

[Jim]

Ban them, then we will be next.

As I have an often poor view of the operation and results of the OHV's, I fully agree with Michael.

It'd be nice if the engines were quieter as well as the operators not blaring music (as on the recent Pickle Gulch trip).

[Java]

I'm not sure that would be the flow, but anything is possible and I get your point and realistically I know it will never happen. There is some history for banning ATVs in this country, although a big difference is that noone is dying from noise and poop on the Lead King Loop.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qieTZN0aJhs

[xaza]

I don't understand this new thing for society to ban any activity that they don't personally do. It has led to more division amongst people of different hobbies. It seems immature and foolish to me. Remember there are inconsiderate people driving the trails in Jeeps too. Yes it would lead to more trail closures due to the reduction of use. Less use means less effect to people if the trail is closed and easier for the tree huggers to push to get them closed. Just look at the gulches and the arguments from the other side based on their rating which includes amount of use. Bottom line comes down to if we keep banning things because enough people are offended then soon we will have no choice but to stay at home and live off the government. There are ways to work around the OHV if they bother you so much. Have a more open mind and let others enjoy what they do and you do what you enjoy. We then have a society of happy people instead of a society looking to make others miserable because they don't get to do what they want to do so they think you shouldn't either.

[Java]

Nice rant. :thumb: What exactly are the ways to "work around the OHV"? Not using those trails, only using them on certain days or hours has already been thought of by other users and are obvious dead ends. Thanks!

[Jim]

IMO - the answer is education. How to accomplish that is the topic.

[speedkills]

Education always sounds like the answer but I don't think it truly is, I think the answer is in changing what the SxS culture values. How to accomplish that, no idea really. Maybe through clubs, but how would you get them to join the clubs? With dirt bikes I have certainly noticed that people who are club members vs a couple of buddies who just bought bikes and ride together, the club members are much better behaved on the trails.

[derf]

The biggest issue isn't the ATV/UTVs.

The biggest issue is the jackasses among them who ruin it for the rest.

A lot of ATV/UTV drivers are good people and follow the rules. There are some, and they get all of the attention, who don't. And they're the ones causing the backlash.

It's like the diesel truck crowd. Tuning up a truck wasn't a big deal until a subset of the owners deliberately started rolling coal everywhere. Once that happened enough to be a real problem, the EPA cracked down on all tuners.


The off road community (4x4, ATV/UTV, dirt bikes, etc.) needs to police their own. We as a community need to call out this bad behavior and do something proactive about it. If we don't, someone else will. And when that happens, we will suffer.

[TDash]

I just want to say although the guys in the side-by-side who were blaring music at Pickle Gulch seemed annoying to our groups, they also hopped out and started moving rocks for Jake when he was stuck in that double hole losing traction. They were happy to help out and seemed cool in that, our only interaction.


My wife and I also found it hilarious at that time Jake was rocking back and forth trying to get through it, they started playing some country music and there was a Jesus take the wheel line, didn't sound like the Carrie Underwood song and we have no idea if it was just good timing or purposely setup for comedic effect but we got a good laugh out of it :)

[speedkills]

I’ve met some good guys on the trails on side by sides as well so not hating on all of them. Just a few too many bad actors and of course those are the ones getting all of the attention. Which based on the loud music and flashing lights is exactly how they want it.

[xaza]

Not using those trails, only using them on certain days or hours has already been thought of by other users and are obvious dead ends.
Those are a good start. I have read multiple trail reports on multiple sites that suggest this does work, although possibly not everywhere. It is better to work with people to reach a resolve than against. So often society is looking to fix their problems without any real effort on their part. One idea is to work with the rental companies. Volunteer your time to teach etiquette classes to first time renters. It would cost them nothing then. Add in the benefit of forwarding videos of offenders misusing equipment on the trails that would allow them to charge surcharges for improper use and then it benefits them. You could teach 2 thirty minute classes in the morning which would help you get to know more of these people from the other side. Then head out and enjoy your day.

[dieseldoc]

Ok folks this is a very touchy situation.
The system have distroyed red elephant hill...
They are not adhering to the trail educate in any way....
We dam near hit them commong down spring creek on the shelf facing empire....have stood my ground to the point of 2 jeeps across the trail...

No I by no means like these machines...they are for high speed not craving.
But they are a part of our community.
Thus we must figure out how to have them and us out and about.
Be it they need there own tracks....
Would be my preferred as well there just a rock to me anymore. The sxs get blamed we will be next

In the spirt of good faith it's our rangers whom we need to be in contact with.
The rentals are permitted.
Get with the ranger in that district.
Make your complaints.
Do so with evidence.
You will see changes.

Our (native jeeps) relationship with the CCCRD is very good.
We are working with them to limit the distruction from the SxS

[xaza]

have stood my ground to the point of 2 jeeps across the trail...
this sounds like the kettle calling the pot black. How can you expect anyone else to use etiquette when you are intentionally preventing the trail being used by others? When is it ever correct to block a trail intentionally? I have seen just as much destruction from Jeeps with newby drivers as the SxS. All OHV are not SxS and I think you are grouping a very large community into one small barrel. I ride OHV as well as wheeling my Jeep and I follow trail etiquette no matter what I am driving. You want to penalize me for my OHV due to the actions of others? To have 2 sets of tracks for the different toys creates more destruction to the natural environment and will certainly have the tree huggers begging for the shutting down of trails for all. It creates more area that the rangers need to cover and creates a financial obstacle for the rangers. This type attitude is going to create a war between communities each trying to shut down the other and in the end we will all lose. At some point the cancel culture needs to stop and we need to work together to build a stronger unified community.

[Bob]

I’ve seen really bad behavior by some people, especially tourists, all over the land and they don’t even need a vehicle - “Vacation Brain”. Of course a vehicle magnifies the problem. Like it or not, all motor vehicles get lumped together in many minds, so our fate is tied to the ATV users behavior.

Just thinking out loud here:

Rental companies have a lot to lose if there are more restrictions, as do we. So perhaps a cooperative approach to try is for 4x4 clubs to work with the rental companies to curb bad behavior. Gather evidence, such as GoPro video, of their customers behaving badly and then meet, show it to them, and make the case that we all could lose privileges if such behavior continues.

Ask them to consider how they might educate their customers, and maybe enforce some discipline. Maybe put identifying number on the machines so that bad actors can be identified. Maybe part of a deposit isn’t returned if one is caught being destructive. Yep, lots of practical problems with that, but hey just brainstorming.

If first we try going to the FS, they might just decide to reduce their headaches and ban all MV use in an area.

[Java]

Those are a good start. I have read multiple trail reports on multiple sites that suggest this does work, although possibly not everywhere. It is better to work with people to reach a resolve than against. So often society is looking to fix their problems without any real effort on their part. One idea is to work with the rental companies. Volunteer your time to teach etiquette classes to first time renters.

Got links to any of those trail reports? Multiple reports on multiple site would suggest that I'm not seeing things accurately. I'd love to see that, I do not mind being proved wrong. As far as teaching a class to renters, I was in the waverunner rental business for years and have rented boats and 4x4s many times here and in Utah, and there three things that you go over with ever renter every time: How to operate the vehicle safely, how to behave, and most importantly the current condition of the rental and what it will cost them if they damage it. A class would be redundant, the operator should have already covered it. From experience I can tell you that all 99% of the renters hear is static coming out of your mouth, they are waiting to get on the machine and go.

Just want to repost the original articles this thread started from, most of the points on this thread are in it. It shows different perspectives from homeowners to law enforcement to business owners, as well as what is actually happening. This thread has gotten more into feelings, which is a big part of it for sure; this is what is actually happening. the laws around this are a mess, the process of cleaning that up is the context for all of this:

https://coloradosun.com/2021/06/17/off-highway-vehicles-conflict-colorado-mountains/

The ban the Gov just signed

https://www.outtherecolorado.com/news/off-highway-vehicles-banned-on-all-colorado-roads-with-limited-exceptions/article_5a0aa45a-b41e-11eb-a059-93be3bc69b7d.html

[xaza]

This thread has gotten more into feelings
This thread has been about feelings since the first line of first post. Just going to post one more feeling and then walk away. When I joined this club it was about embracing all levels of people who explore our back country no matter what make of vehicle they drive. It has always been about teaching new drivers how to properly handle their rigs on the trail and working together to keep the trails open. I actually showed up for a trail clean up prior to being in the group because I was growing up and wanted to help keep trails open. Prior to being in this group I wasn't following all proper trail etiquette and I learned from others in here. I used to bump down the trail with my 130 decibal system announcing my arrival a mile ahead of me. This thread just seems to go against what I believe this group is. We don't set out to ban people as they learn, we try and help them learn.

[Jaycifer]

What about odd/even days like they do for hiking and MTB? Seems like it works pretty well to keep hikers/bikers content enough to respect it

[Java]

Cliff, I started this thread with my feelings, but I also put in two links to backup what I was talking about and to put it in context. You cherry picked part of one of my sentences for your last rant, the whole sentence and the next read: "This thread has gotten more into feelings, which is a big part of it for sure; this is what is actually happening. the laws around this are a mess, the process of cleaning that up is the context for all of this", followed by two links to again show what I was talking about. I'm clearly not mocking feelings, just pointing out the real world context of this discussion. You seem offended by this thread which was no one's intention and I really don't see why you of all people would be. In your first rant you used the words "immature and foolish", making you the only person using insulting language on this thread so far. Otherwise it's been thoughtful statement of position, nothing to get upset about.

So feelings are fine, ranting is fine, backing up what you say is better. You stated that you had Multiple threads on multiple sites. Before you walk away, got those links?

[xaza]

In your first rant you used the words "immature and foolish", making you the only person using insulting language on this thread so far.
I would like to clarify that I was not referring to anyone with my statement but just the whole culture in general. I am not offended, even as a target of intended banning, just disappointed. I am used to this group taking the high road.

[Schmitty]

Bunce is so trashed and torn up from the rentals that it's not much fun to run those

I was up there about a month ago when I still had the 4runner and came upon one of the land owners grading his section of the upper portion for drainage reasons, we chatted for a bit about the land-use. He shared with me some important information about the property lines and the legal use of motorized vehicles up there. The SXS is classified as an ATV basically and is illegal to operate on county roads, some sections of Bunce are technically county roads, to which he and several other land owners up there have reported to the Sheriff. Given that particular SXS operation seems to have grown over a few years I'm willing to suggest they're making enough money to bribe their way into that spot.

I'm all for the locals riding their SXS up on trails but, to use Bunce as an example because I also go shooting up there, the questionably legitimate business those fellas are running on national forest land is increasing in impact. I took the new TJ up there for a little shakedown run and it looks more like a SXS track with some loops into the woods (that shouldn't be there) with clear signs of blatant disregard for the natural resource.

I see this as a good example of how to NOT be a member of the off-road community as they (the SXS business) are not only of questionable legitimacy but they're making a bad name for SXS riders.


a new bill being signed by Colorado Governor Jared Polis on May 7, 2021. According to the bill, off-highway vehicles are banned on all public streets

We need to be careful about these bills, there are environmental groups trying to shut down motorized access to most (if not all) trails.