Regear advice - shop recommendations?

[open_circuit]

The LJ has 3.73 gears in it. I've been satisfied with performance of these gears for on and off road performance despite being under-geared a bit with 33s. Now that we have the trailer, I'd like to get some bigger gears installed to improve towing on and off road. I'm thinking that 4.57 is probably a good size to achieve this while staying with 33" tires. I can't see myself going to 35s since that would require further modifications for more lift.

I don't think I have the patience to do this job myself, so I'm interested in recommendations for reputable front range shops so I can start making contacts and collecting quotes.

Furthermore, because going to 4.57 would change the ring gear size, if I understand correctly, I think I'll lose my limited slip rear diff. I am aware of air and electronic lockers as options. I assume something like this https://www.justdifferentials.com/Dana-Spicer-Model-44-Truetrac-p/tt913a592.htm is a viable replacement? I think this may be what Paul runs in his LJ, though i'm not sure of his gearing. I'm considering whether an LSD would be better for general driving and towing than a selectable locker. D44 rear, D30 front on the LJ.

[Java]

I cannot recommend dual truetracs enough, they are great in every situation. No steering feedback at all, it just always keeps moving as long as there are 3 tires on the ground. Excellent on snow and ice. You can drive mine if you want before deciding.

I'm not sure if these guys are still open, everything in the Highlands is flipping so fast, but I've used them twice and have been satisfied with the work and price. https://www.yelp.com/biz/arnolds-transmission-and-gear-denver-2

Matt's video of me on snow, they never stop


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrFZPhFYGdw

[FINOCJ]

Furthermore, because going to 4.57 would change the ring gear size, if I understand correctly, I think I'll lose my limited slip rear diff. I am aware of air and electronic lockers as options. I assume something like this https://www.justdifferentials.com/Da.../tt913a592.htm is a viable replacement? I think this may be what Paul runs in his LJ, though i'm not sure of his gearing. I'm considering whether an LSD would be better for general driving and towing than a selectable locker. D44 rear, D30 front on the LJ.

I am not 100% familiar with 'modern' D44s, but yes, the carrier break 3.92....Going from 3.73 to any gearing numerically higher than 3.92 (say 4.57), then yes, the ring gear changes and it will not bolt up to the 3.73 carrier (and in you case, that carrier is a limited slip). So, the short answer is yes, you'll have to figure out how you want to handle traction devices as well. Its may or may not be worth mentioning, and not sure if it fully applies to TJ era D44, but there are some aftermarket ring gears for D44s that were specifically to deal with this issue. IIRC, the issue is not so much with the diameter of the ring gear, but rather the thickness changes. So there used to be (and maybe still are) D44 'thick' and 'thin' ring gears for the different carrier breaks that could be used, or spacers can been used to make a 'thin' gear work with a 'thick' gear carrier ....so, it might take a very knowledgeable gear shop to help you with that, but if you are interested to keep your limited slips, it is a possible option...is it the best option, up to you......if it were me, I'd use the opportunity to get a selectable locker - at least in the rear. I guess everyone has their preferred set-ups and experience and type of trail they drive, but I think 1 rear locker is more traction that 2 limited slips. Personally, I prefer the Eaton e-locker over the air activated lockers as the air hoses are just a bit of a hassle, and you also need a compressor. The Ox is probably the most bullet proof, but the actuator options can be a little finicky as well.

[open_circuit]

Thanks James. For trail only use I suspect a selectable locker is more functional than torsion based auto locker. I think I've only been limited by my rear LSD in deep snow once and never on the trail. I have found myself limited on trails by lack of front locker several times. With the fully open front diff, I have turned back from multiple obstacles. I think two auto lockers (LSD) probably push my capability up a little bit to keep me on the types of trails I plan to run with this jeep.

On the highway, I haven't driven fully open in the rear. I'm not sure if the LSD has been providing any help to me on the highway. My thinking was that an e-locker has no use on the road but an LSD can replace my provide some extra traction and stability. Am I off base?

[Java]

Maybe elocker rear, truetrac front? You'd be unstoppable. My last Jeep had a Detroit Locker rear and an open front and was better at slow crawling than my LJ, but I like the dual truetracs better otherwise. I had a toyota with a rear factory locker and didn't end up using it much, but it was like a get-unstuck button when I did. I really like the truetracs for what I do, which is mostly moderate to difficult trails and overland stuff.

Have you considered rebuilding your tracloc? It's probably pretty worn down at this point, kits are cheap and easy to do.

[open_circuit]

Maybe elocker rear, truetrac front? You'd be unstoppable. My last Jeep had a Detroit Locker rear and an open front and was better at slow crawling than my LJ, but I like the dual truetracs better otherwise. I had a toyota with a rear factory locker and didn't end up using it much, but it was like a get-unstuck button when I did. I really like the truetracs for what I do, which is mostly moderate to difficult trails and overland stuff.

Have you considered rebuilding your tracloc? It's probably pretty worn down at this point, kits are cheap and easy to do.

No, since regearing most likely means a new carrier I didn't see any point trying to rebuild my old LSD. If I can't use it with 4.57 gears, why rebuild? Maybe I've missed something here.

[Java]

This is what James meant with thick cut gears, they work with the carrier you have to change the gearing. https://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-14789460-motive-gear-dana-44-ring-pinion-4-56-thick.html

[FINOCJ]

This is what James meant with thick cut gears, they work with the carrier you have to change the gearing. https://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-14789460-motive-gear-dana-44-ring-pinion-4-56-thick.html

Nice....good to know there are still thin vs thick gears...I am not totally dated yet.

[FINOCJ]

So if I may...I am a bit of stickler for terminology, but I would like to clarify that an auto locker is NOT an LSD. An auto locker is a full locker - just like a selectable - just that they engage 'automatically' when one axle shaft (wheel) spins some amount more than the other side. When it engages, both sides are fully locked together. The LSD will never full lock both axle shaft together, but they are also never completely independent (open) either. I'd be very hesitant to go auto locker in the rear given all the highway driving, towing, and probably winter highway driving. Some people have no issue with them, but I find the 'unexpected' auto engagement when going around a tight corner or on a icy start to be disconcerting and sometimes a bit difficult to keep things stable - of course, this is much worse in a short wheelbase cj5 than in longer vehicles like yours. One downside to most LSD is they use clutch packs that will eventually wear out, and since you can't turn them off, they are always wearing a little bit every time you drive. But there are some 'no-slip' LSD that are gear driven - which is what the torsion (gleason) style are (and maybe what Auburn call 'true trac' that Paul has). Those torsion gear style are by far the best LSD you can get in my opinion, as they don't wear out, and they probably bind the axles together about as close to a true locker as any LSD does. At the same time, for hard core trail use such as the rubicon, those of us with a single locker (whether auto or selectable) did a lot better than those with 2 LSDs - even the jeep with torsion LSDs front and rear. And I would guess the cost of a single selectable locker is about the same as two LSDs. But...your comment about what is better for road use - especially slippery, snowy roads and maybe when towing....I think that is an interesting question. A selectable locker won't hinder or help as it will just be off. An auto locker in the rear would make me nervous...an LSD might be the best choice...added traction with no need to engage or activate, and easy to control road manners.

And one last thing...especially if you are thinking of re-using your existing LSD with the 'thick' gear set like Paul posted - If it was a jeep factory LSD - then its a Trac-Lok, and IMHO, is completely NOT worth rebuilding or re-using. The early Trac-loc's were notoriously weak and broke (although some of that was due to the jeep axles), but even when used in later, stronger axles, they are notoriously 'weak' in their clutch packs and don't add all that much traction. In other words, the don't limit the slip of the differential all that much. I used to joke that the Trac-loc in either of my previous jeeps qualified me for 'stockers without lockers' runs as the Trac-locs are essentially a glorified open differential.

[open_circuit]

I have no plan to rebuild my trac-loc. Still considering trutrac vs e locker. I must misunderstand the truetrac a bit. I thought it operates a bit less like a full auto locker and more like my Tracloc. I also believe it is torsion based rather than clutch packs. Whichever way I go I prefer to not diminish on road performance considerably.

[FINOCJ]

I must misunderstand the truetrac a bit. I thought it operates a bit less like a full auto locker and more like my Tracloc. I also believe it is torsion based rather than clutch packs.

You are correct, the truetrac is definitely a limited slip, not a full locker or auto locker. I only mentioned it due to the previous statement about a torsion based auto locker:


For trail only use I suspect a selectable locker is more functional than torsion based auto locker.

Paul can clarify for sure (or a bit of internet research), but i think the truetrack is a torsion style LSD, and would provide a nice upgrade in off-road traction over the Trac-loc without going full locker. Basically, I think its what you indicate you are interested in....

[open_circuit]

Thanks James. Appreciate the clarification and confirmation. I don't know what I don't know, so it is helpful to get input from folks here who have more experience and knowledge in this area. I like the idea of a better / stronger LSD based on my experience. Haven't wheeled the Frontier much, but did try the locker in snow on Switzerland trail last year. Not impressed with how that worked, but it could be due to the truck lacking bed weight, the truck just not being a jeep, or turning on the locker being the wrong choice for the situation.

[Java]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZmsY2YvVsc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwpNpvsshQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGH2Cw_FyM

[Java]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVxRILxHcIM

fwiw I tossed my tracloc when i got my Jeep, it was toast and I replaced it with a spartan locker in an open case rear and a truetrac front. The spartan sucked both on and offroad, I had trouble shifting the transmission in deep sand on Picture Frame Arch in Moab with it locked and had to get pulled to shift. The truetracs are really good differentials, and I think you'll like them as much as I do.

[Jim]

Trent, have you referenced RPM/ratio/tire size charts to compare your current setup (3.73) to a setup with your intended new ratio (4.57/4.56)?

[open_circuit]

Yes. https://www.quadratec.com/sites/default/files/knowledge_based_articles/gearchart(1).jpg

3.73 / 33 has me at bottom of the yellow band. 4.56 would put me at the top of the green band. I don't want to go too high and end up with my transmission gears too close together (mph) and too limited top speed in 5th/6th.

[FINOCJ]

Engine size also plays a role in this...but I think 4.56 gears is a pretty sweet choice. If it was a Rubicon with 4.10, it probably wouldn't be worth the change, but stepping up from 3.73s will make the jeep feel all new driving experience. I would suggest that Jim should take a look at that chart and consider regearing the YJ - it would make that thing come to life! I run 4.88s with my 33s - but I have a bit less power in the old v6 than the modern engines - and my top highway speed is generally 65mph in overdrive (as much for safety and sketchy steering and marginal brakes etc), so i don't crush the rpms too much. If I really wanted to go 70-75mph, the 4.88s wouldn't work (or I need bigger tires!). 4.56 should allow for decent 70mph cruising in the 2600 range and really help with towing and climbing the steep mountain grades. the straight sixes don't love the higher rpms as much as the v6 or sbcv8, but it can run 2600 all day. The 58 has 4.27 gears and no overdrive and small 30" tires....65mph is going to put me just over 3000 rpm - its not going to be ideal. Lifting and going bigger tires (32") will help some, and an overdrive is also an option if really needed (or budget allows). Even my tacoma has 3.73 gears, and I wouldn't want to go any bigger than the current 32" tires.

[speedkills]

I got to watch Trent spin one tire in the snow last year and the other not spin at all. Pretty sure his limited slip is toast and doesn't add anything. Trent, for whatever it's worth I only find a limited slip better on the road when you are pushing hard enough to spin one tire, and given your limited power I wonder if that is ever much of an issue? In my G I only find the lack of a limited slip annoying when accelerating out of a turn from a stop, think being perpendicular to traffic and turning to merge in while accelerating strongly. When I do that, my inside rear wheel gets light and spins. If this isn't an issue for you then limited slip vs locker might be an easy decision. I'll also echo James' comment that detroit locker style limited slips can be fun, but also dangerous in slick conditions. They will make the back end step out shockingly fast with just a little too much throttle.

[speedkills]

Are truetrac's weaker than their other diffs? I'm curious why their application guide doesn't recommend them for rock crawling.

https://i.imgur.com/WZBqGKL.jpg

[FINOCJ]

Are truetrac's weaker than their other diffs? I'm curious why their application guide doesn't recommend them for rock crawling.

https://i.imgur.com/WZBqGKL.jpg

2 thoughts - I am just guessing, but:
1) In short, the torsion style LSDs are great, but they are still and LSD - they are not a locker. They are a really good aggressive LSD, but you can get one wheel to spin - I've watched it on the rubicon for a couple years, both in a CJ and in a YJ. Short wheelbase, leaf sprung vehicles makes this worse as its so easy to loose traction on one tire. The only ones they advertise in the chart as rock crawl or extreme off-road are the full locker (whether it be auto or selectable).
2) There is also a component to marketing in such a description....its a good way to help customers feel good about their selection (and in a basic, introductory way, it is true and helps). Obviously, there are a lot of subtle differences (and not so subtle) between the detroit 'auto' style locker and the selectable e-locker not shown in the diagram, but it helps get a first order approximation.

[Jim]

I would suggest that Jim should take a look at that chart and consider regearing the YJ - it would make that thing come to life!

Yes, re-gearing would be nice. I did consider it when one of the ARB's was being replaced. The shop said the other ARB would need to be replaced / different carrier that you're talking about (though maybe I could get away with one of the fat/thin gear kits). The 4:1 low range is what saves the day for trail use. Highway - flats - overdrive is functional. The not-too-common steep enough hill, I just downshift one, maybe two.

[derf]

A day late to the party but I'll chime in.

I had a 2001 XJ with the 4.0 and an automatic. I ran 265/75R16 tires (32's) and 4.56 gears and it was a pretty good match for all around driving. The AW4 auto in my XJ has a little more overdrive (0.75) than the NSG370 manual (.086) in the LJ. Though the 42RLE automatic in the LJ has even more overdrive (0.70). Still, I think 4.56 gears would be good for 33's in an LJ. I'd consider 4.88's for the automatic if you have it. Either way, you'll still be able to drive on the freeway without blowing up your engine. And you'll have good gearing for low and slow driving.

You can go here and play around with the numbers to see exactly what each change will give you: http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

Best bet there is to look up the specs on the tires you're running on the Jeep now. Find the "Revolutions per mile" number and plug it in. That will give you better numbers.

For the 4.0, I try to shoot for 2,500 RPM at 75 in overdrive. That seems to be a good balanced spot to land.


As far as the various differentials, I'll rehash what others have said. I've run all kinds of lockers and limited slips over the years in all different kinds of trucks and Jeeps.

For a Jeep that sees the trails I would avoid open differentials, especially if you have to change the carrier out anyway.

The factory clutch pack limited slip, the Trash-Lock as I like to call it, is not entirely terrible. But the clutch packs wear out and it's no better than an open differential. So unless you like rebuilding the diff every couple of years, I'd just get rid of it. If you're replacing the carrier anyway, there's no reason to buy a new one for sure. If you use thick cut gears, you could keep what you have and rebuild it. But that wouldn't be my first choice. It certainly would be more budget friendly. But realistically, you're saving 10% of the total cost or less and you have a maintenance item to deal with every couple of years.

My old XJ had Eaton TrueTracs front and rear. I am a fan of the helical gear limited slips. They are a zero maintenance item. You install them and never have to think of them again. They are just there, working all the time. No need to run wiring or air lines, no switches to think about. You just get in and drive. They are great in the snow and on the trail. That XJ with a good set of snow tires wouldn't stop until snow was up to the bumper. While I didn't take all of the hard lines on Hell's Revenge in Moab, I drove all over the place and never once even got close to being stuck.

If I was building a rig to do the lower 70-80% of the trails out there, TrueTracs (or any other helical limited slip) front and rear would top the list. Especially if it was going to be what I drove in the snow.

I had an old 79 Cherokee with a rear lunchbox locker. That's a cheap way to get an automatic locker in your trail rig. I really didn't like it though. Driving it on the road, it would click and pop (some brands don't do that). But it also required me to adjust my driving habits. It "opens up" when you're coasting but as soon as you hit the gas it will lock and that can make the vehicle behave weirdly. It wanted to push me over into the next lane any time I got on the gas. It was predictable but annoying. Also, on the ice and snow, it actually hurt my traction. A fully locked axle breaks tires loose sooner than with an open diff or limited slip. So when the roads were slick, I had to be more careful. Sure, it was cheap and it did well off road but it made the Jeep less fun to drive on the road.

I've run a couple different kinds of selectable lockers. I tried out the Auburn ECTED. That's a clutch pack limited slip with a magnet that compresses the clutch pack. It's supposed to lock the axles but it never really fully locked anything. It just made the limited slip more aggressive. And it wore out the clutches faster than a normal clutch pack limited slip. I won't ever buy another one.

I've run Eaton E-Lockers in a couple of vehicles. They are pretty good. They are fully open normally and you can daily drive with them and it's no problem. Behaves very predictably when unlocked. When it's time that you want to lock the axles, you just flip the switch and you have 100% axle lock. It may take a few seconds to engage and disengage with the e-locker but it's nice to have the choice. For a daily driver that sees more significant trails, the selectable locker is the way to go. You can handle lifting a tire and still being able to get up the obstacle. And at the same time you can drive on the street in a very docile vehicle.

For a Jeep that's going to see trails on the upper 20-30% of the scale, a selectable is the way to go. The limited slip will let you down when you start lifting tires but the selectable locker will give you what you need while still being reasonable on the street.


Regearing and installing LSD/Lockers is a buy once, cry once proposition. But it's worth doing the right way so you only do it once. It's far cheaper in the long run to do everything in one shot.

[open_circuit]

I feel like to go up a level of trail difficulty, I'd need bigger lift and tires along with lockers. With the new hard top I've further reduced my stomach for body damage, so I don't see this vehicle being on trails harder than something like Poison Spyder Mesa. Since I humped this rig as-built over Poison Spyder, Golden Spike and Gold Bar Rim last year, I think this is a suitable level of capability. I don't think I'd try Golden Spike in this vehicle again -- more clearance and lockers would be preferred. In other words, I think my rig is already sitting at "capable" for 70% of the trails and I'm pretty satisfied at that level.

I don't daily drive the Jeep, but it gets a lot of highway miles to/from Moab and other distant trails. Last year I did a lot of snow wheeling and would have appreciated better performance in the snow. It sounds like either a TrueTrac or e-locker would be appropriate here, and if I'm not going to try to level up the rig to higher difficulty trials TrueTracs are probably a good choice.

[TyTheJeepGuy]

Are truetrac's weaker than their other diffs? I'm curious why their application guide doesn't recommend them for rock crawling.

My personal take on this with absolutely no credibility whatsoever is that they aren't recommending it for rock crawling because it isn't a selectable configuration and requires wheel spin for activation. In rock crawling scenarios I think the conscious decision to lock on command and operate knowing you are or aren't locked is more helpful than throttling out waiting for something to engage. This is how my Grand Cherokee with Quadra-Drive II worked, I had to get some wheel spin going before the ELSD would send power to the wheel with traction.

So in short my opinion is that it doesn't have to do with strength, although it might, but with how it is engaged.

[Jim]

So, it sounds like the gallery is angling to spend Trent's money - convincing him for a rear selectable and perhaps an open or something lower cost up front.

Since I'm posting this somewhat snarky message (mostly serious though), I'll ask this question for some justification: Trent - I see this jeep to be a long term tool for your household. If that is on your mind too, I'd say - this is a great time to go selectable in the rear. As you're not looking for heavy/difficult stuff - leave the front open/basic/whatever. Do it now and enjoy it for a long time to come.

[open_circuit]

Since I'm posting this somewhat snarky message (mostly serious though), I'll ask this question for some justification: Trent - I see this jeep to be a long term tool for your household. If that is on your mind too, I'd say - this is a great time to go selectable in the rear. As you're not looking for heavy/difficult stuff - leave the front open/basic/whatever. Do it now and enjoy it for a long time to come.

I'm not sure I save much by leaving the front open. Labor is going to cost a lot either way. The cost of the front/rear lockers are really only ~35% of the total cost from the quotes I'm getting.

[Jim]

Curious. Consider selectable up front then!

In my experience with two selectables, the front will get activated about 10/20% of the time the rear is activated (summer trails).

Snow runs with chains - both are on near 100% - though snow runs are different than typical summer (high traction) trails.



FWIW - I can select either, independently. ARB had the front activate the rear but I re-wired to have them to be independent.

edit - I'm no ARB or nothing cheerleader. I would consider the electric (magnetic?) style - I'd give it solid consideration. The air lines, for me, have been reliable the past MANY years but I do see them (exiting the diff housing to the body attachment) being an item of concern. Some member hear, years back (Hypoid??), commented on ARB failure concerns with the comment that he thought that engaging while the axle is rotating contributed to the seal rolling under itself and causing an air leak (failure requiring pulling the guts for repair). His comment was to be stopped at engagement. I do this as procedure - be stopped at both engage and disengage. Perhaps I don't have to, but I do.

[Java]

I vote for truetracs. I have the same Jeep as you, same tires and similar lift and have been running them for 10 years all over Colorado and Utah. I have never used my winch, I just don't get stuck (much). With the flex and wheelbase of the LJ you're not going to lift tires much, especially with your OME suspension, and you have to lift one on each axle to have it matter.

I also like the 4:56 even with 35s because the LJ 6 speed has a 4.5 or so to 1 first gear, 1st through 4th are underdrives, 5th is 1 to 1 and 6th is overdrive so you have lower gear choices built in. LJs are the best Js.

[FINOCJ]

The cost of the front/rear lockers are really only ~35% of the total cost from the quotes I'm getting.
I remember getting quotes for my locker install....I ended up doing it myself....doesn't mean that is the right choice for anyone else, just that diff work is pricey when paying shop rates.


they aren't recommending it for rock crawling because it isn't a selectable configuration and requires wheel spin for activation.
good point...wheel spin makes me nervous when in a sketchy spot.....I still remember watching TDash have to spin those big tires fast on his full size chevy to a get the G2 locker/LSD to engage at Lil Moab a few years ago. Selectable locker allows you to idle and drive up the ugly spots without using the gas....most LSD are going to require a bit of gas, if not quite a lot.


So in short my opinion is that it doesn't have to do with strength, although it might,
One thing to keep in mind when discussing LSDs, 'strong' vs 'weak' can often mean how 'aggressive' they are set-up or act...a 'strong' LSD has less differential wheel spin, and acts closer to a locker (more traction), and a 'weak' LSD doesn't bind one axle to the other very much, and acts more like an open diff. Some clutch disk style can be (well the old style could be - like a Powr Loc, the much better predecessor to the Trac-lok) stacked with some extra clutch disks to create more friction and binding between the axles, thus making the LSD more aggressive or stronger in terms of traction.

[open_circuit]

I remember getting quotes for my locker install....I ended up doing it myself....doesn't mean that is the right choice for anyone else, just that diff work is pricey when paying shop rates.


good point...wheel spin makes me nervous when in a sketchy spot.....I still remember watching TDash have to spin those big tires fast on his full size chevy to a get the G2 locker/LSD to engage at Lil Moab a few years ago. Selectable locker allows you to idle and drive up the ugly spots without using the gas....most LSD are going to require a bit of gas, if not quite a lot.


One thing to keep in mind when discussing LSDs, 'strong' vs 'weak' can often mean how 'aggressive' they are set-up or act...a 'strong' LSD has less differential wheel spin, and acts closer to a locker (more traction), and a 'weak' LSD doesn't bind one axle to the other very much, and acts more like an open diff. Some clutch disk style can be (well the old style could be - like a Powr Loc, the much better predecessor to the Trac-lok) stacked with some extra clutch disks to create more friction and binding between the axles, thus making the LSD more aggressive or stronger in terms of traction.

According to the video Paul linked above with the expedition(?), the TrueTrac can only be 'locked' from a full stop by holding brakes while applying a little gas. Wheel spin seems to disengage the lock as described in that video. This does present some complications for a manual transmission driver, but that's one reason I have a hand throttle.

[Java]

That guy is drving a Ford tank, not a Jeep. Nice tank though. To get the front locked up I just put it in gear and tap the brake with my left foot. To lock the rear just pull up on the parking brake while holding the button on it down for a second or two. that's if you ever even need to do any of that; by the time I realize something is up the diffs are already reacting, usually I just slip for a second and go.

[FINOCJ]

According to the video Paul linked above with the expedition(?), the TrueTrac can only be 'locked' from a full stop by holding brakes while applying a little gas. Wheel spin seems to disengage the lock as described in that video. This does present some complications for a manual transmission driver, but that's one reason I have a hand throttle.

Yes....the electronically sensored LSDs (and lockers in some cases) require a certain amount of differential wheelspin to engage. The standard collection of aftermarket LSDs and lockers you are considering won't have that issue. But even then, trying to control wheel spin is an issue with an LSD...Apparently better drivers than me are able to apply some braking to control the rear wheel spin and get the LSD to bind more while also working throttle and clutch....I've never had any success with it on either of my LSD equipped jeeps that were manuals, hand throttle or not. Granted, my old cjs have other issues with trying to drive through the floor pedals and mechanical non-power pedal controls etc - so maybe on modern vehicles it would work better. Although I cannot do it with the old cj5 due to my parking brake set-up mounted on the transfer case, I know some people can use the parking brake a few clicks on their rear brakes to help control wheel spin and keeps your feet free to do normal things. I think in an automatic set-up where you drive one foot on light throttle, and one foot working the brake pedal to ease forward, it has a better chance of working as well....

But it also comes down to an LSD is what it is...it is a nice improvement in traction over an open differential, and works well in loose or even slippery conditions where you keep the tires on the ground. But an LSD is a 'limited slip', it limits differential wheel spin, but doesn't stop it. In other words, its just not the same as a locker - it won't give traction once one side is unweighted/lifted and spinning no matter how fancy you get with your foot and brake work. Only a locker (whether auto, selectable, spool) will work in that situation. After running two different jeeps with LSDs, I got my first true locker in the tacoma - and it was a different world. The only thing that limited my tacoma was its clearance with long wheel base and no lift. And it made me realize the cj needed a locker, and when I swapped out the LSD to the e-locker in the cj5, well, that jeep almost keeps up with all of you with modern built jeeps today. The traction gains are just orders of magnitude greater than an LSD. I think there is/was some old threads on the forum that talked about what is most important priorities when building a 4x4....We all like more lift and bigger tires etc, but in many ways, there is no bigger bang for your buck than a locker, and yes that is a lot of buck, but the bang is huge.

But again, that doesn't make a locker the right choice...As you have said, its more about building a jeep that matches your intended usage goals as opposed to just maximizing traction. I think the gear driven LSDs are solid, reliable and aid traction - the clutch driven LSDs just aren't worth the money and maintenance IMHO. Certainly if you go the LSD route, you probably consider running both front and rear, especially given all the sunk expense of the regear front and rear. With dual LSDs, you will notice a very big gain in traction over your single rear, and probably worn Trac-lok. The old saying is 2 LSDs = 1 locker.....I actually think a single rear locker is more valuable than 2 LSDs, but its close, and may also depend on the type of trail you drive on. Paul said it best - front and rear gear driven LSDs on the long wheelbase LJ will get you almost anywhere that isn't lifting tires in the big rocks. Probably an ideal set-up for what I envision when you talk about overlanding across the southwest. But the other side of the discussion might also beabout cost - the majority of the cost at this point is in the gear set up labor, so would using a selectable locker in the rear add much cost over an LSD? There is zero downside to a selectable locker (there is downside to an auto locker), only upside and a bit more expense. It will do everything the gear driven LSD will do and more, meet all your overlanding needs, and still have some additional capability for when following Shane into something stupid because he has portals! And of course, I would still suggest the gear driven LSD in the front - that would be one helluva a set up. Maybe thats why I will be going that route - well actually i am going that route because no selectable lockers are available for my front end, but I am expecting it to be one helluva set-up!

[open_circuit]

I assumed selectable locker won't work at snow-covered road speeds but TrueTrac will -- the benefit over locker would be traction in wet/snowy conditions on the road?

Thanks for the lively discussion. Still evaluating the e locker rear vs TrueTrac. Cost difference is about 2x for e locker compare to TrueTrac for the device itself. However, total parts cost is approximately equal to labor, so adding $500 to parts would not substantially increase total cost. I want to put the best solution for my use in this time and not pay shop labor again. I can see why people decide to do this job themselves due to labor costs, but I also think this is a job I don't want to screw up. Some jobs are worth the cost to have experienced labor doing the job correctly and efficiently.

[speedkills]

Really good discussion here, the only other point I'll toss in that I is implied but not specifically mentioned is that there is a difference in how these are activated. ABS type braking systems and LSD's are reactive, lockers are pro-active. If you want something to just have your back the automated systems are nice, as Paul mentioned, by the time you notice something is slipping it has already stepped in to help you out. If you want to choose when you use it, or are need that last few percent of traction I don't think a reactive system is quite as good but I realize that may just be my opinion.

I see a lot of people enjoying being able to clean an obstacle and say "I didn't even need to lock up", for better or worse you can choose your traction with lockers, but also you have to choose your traction with lockers (at least the type you are considering) and until I got a vehicle that let me choose which axles to lockup I didn't really get it, but it is kinda fun.

In a perfect world I wish I had both on my G, I wish I had limited slip sometimes when I want to break the back end loose and drive like an idiot on a dirt road, instead one tire spins and the other holds traction, but I also wouldn't want to give up explicit control of what is locked up and when now that I have it and am intending to learn/enable some techniques taking advantage of it in the next year, things like front digs and dragging a single rear wheel to cut a turn sharper that wouldn't be possible if I had no control over when axles locked up. Either way you go I think you will be pretty pleased with the upgrade, but I wonder if you will miss the challenge of going through things unlocked if you have it all automated? When I went out with Ty's J10 I had a surprising amount of fun seeing what I could do in 1 wheel drive with nothing at all locked up.

[FINOCJ]

I assumed selectable locker won't work at snow-covered road speeds but TrueTrac will -- the benefit over locker would be traction in wet/snowy conditions on the road?

You definitely wouldn't want the locker engaged at highway speeds on snowy/slippery roads (unexpected engagement is the downside to auto lockers)....but with a selectable in the off position, its still functioning like normal 4wd open diffs. For all the winter highway driving I do between here and Montana all winter, I've never felt like I've needed or would have benefited from more than standard 4wd with open diffs. Good snow tires, and weight distribution in the truck bed are much more important factors. Any mechanical differential traction devices (as opposed to computer monitored traction control) make me a bit nervous on snowy highways...one axle wheel spinning is okay (like in an open diff), but with a locker, its easy to get both wheels spinning, and that is when you break loose and start going sideway on snow. An LSD is obviously not a locker, and typically avoids that concern, but then is it giving you any real help or advantage, or is it just acting like an open diff? I don't know, but my guess is that its not helping or hurting on highway in any conditions, and that it is essentially acting like an open diff or a diff with the selectable in the off position.


I wish I had limited slip sometimes when I want to break the back end loose and drive like an idiot on a dirt road,
you just need a bigger engine....the 10L 1000hp big block...you could break a spooled axle loose on pavement with that thing, and drive like an idiot everywhere

[Java]

This is the kryptonite. I think if he used his parking brake he could get moving.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIe9XGrPtmw

He has a rear truetrac and a front e-locker. Good video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuVjdiBCD0c

[Trevor?]

I like the front and rear trutracs in my van, but it's my opinion that you can get a little more out of that kind of a setup with an automatic transmission than a manual. With an automatic it's easier to ride the brakes through a tricky spot, especially from a stop, and build up some torque in the axles to bind up the trutracs. It can be done with a manual, but it's a little more difficult.

I have a somewhat freshly rebuilt traclok in my Jeep. It wasn't too hard to rebuild, but getting a second set of hands to jam the sidegears/clutches back in the carrier would have been nice. The traclok has quite a bit of preload when fresh. That's another thing about the trutrac is that there is no preload. On a slippery road if you are off the throttle a trutrac will differentiate in a turn just like an open diff and your wheels will keep rolling. A preloaded LSD could drag a tire if its slick enough. The trutrac will still swing the rear out if you give it too much throttle in the snow, but I'm finding with the van and the automatic it's not difficult to keep that under control.

For the milder stuff that I am into, I like that the trutrac and the traclok are always "working". If i'm out in my Xterra with the factory rear locker I rarely find myself using it because I would be turning it on and off a bunch between tight turns and spots where I think i might need traction. That may be different because with the factory setup as it seems to be a little more difficult to turn that thing on and off compared to an aftermarket setup.

[speedkills]

That sound is so hard to hear. In that video it's hard to see what a truetrac gets you over a cutting brake. I mean, an open diff starts transferring power if I brake the opposite wheel. What do you think Trent, twin levers for your e-brake? You'll be nearly as low tech as they come, cable operated cruise control and now a cable operated power transfer device, plus you get to do those neat tight turns.

[Trevor?]

twin levers for your e-brake?

It's pretty rad on a baja-bug... why not try it on an LJ.