Rules change - Four Spare Tires section - to be removed

[Jim]

Hello Folks,

Several years back I proposed, we discussed, and then added the concept of "Four Spare Tires" available to be used for account re-activations.

While the majority of members fall into one of two groups - 1) those that stay active and never go inactive (and never ask to be reactivated) and 2) those that inactivate and never return to be reactivated, there is a small number of people where reactivations can be a revolving door. The admin's desire (my desire) was to remove subjectivity to not reactivate a member - to have it be objective - if there's an available "spare", it would be used. If not, then not.

Well, now that the spares process has been in effect for many years, I find it is not needed. In the mind of keeping life (the rules) simple / short / clean - I think the section can be removed.

Thoughts and comments always welcome.

[FINOCJ]

Are you saying the spare tire process has essentially filtered out all the inactive members over the last few years - in other words it's essentially done it's job? Basically, my thoughts are typically whatever works best for you Jim as it's typically your time and energy being used.

[Jim]

No. The spare tires only assists for a RE-activation of an account. It has no effect for when an account transitions to inactive.

The Four Spare Tires would be an objective policy should the admin be asked to re-active a membership. If there's a spare, it'd be reactivated, if not, then not. The subjective issue - does the admin want to reactivate the account in question. My desire when spare tires was proposed was to remove me from being subjectively deciding if an account is reactivated. Bottom line - I find it to be a non-issue and thus the spare tires process is needless baggage that can be removed.

As for an account going inactive, that is fairly cut and dry. When an account shows no login for X days, the system is supposed to automatically inactivate an account. Some security update broke that function. I manually (once or twice a year, maybe-ish) run an inactivate members process. I ask the forum to show accounts not logged in for at least X days (60 to 95 or maybe 120 is often what I filter on) and I then review the list. Vendors are exempt (we have one vendor account). Members that move out of state are exempt (but I do inactivate when they have not logged in for more than two years). A few noted accounts are exempt from inactivations. Once the review is complete, those remaining are set to inactive state.

The inactive process is not intended to "kick people out". The purpose is to get the online forum software to match who is showing up for trail runs.

Chris, who founded the group, would delete the accounts. While I like the delete process in concept, doing so causes posts made by a member to be left hanging with no name attached to who made the post. The post stays - but who made it - is removed. I like to have member info attached to posts so I prefer the inactivate (vs delete) process.

[FINOCJ]

While I like the delete process in concept, doing so causes posts made by a member to be left hanging with no name attached to who made the post. The post stays - but who made it - is removed. I like to have member info attached to posts so I prefer the inactivate (vs delete) process.

As inactive accounts keep the member profile attached to a post, is there an obvious way to identify an inactive account?

[FINOCJ]

Thanks for the explanation...I might have been a bit unclear in my question. It wasn't so much whether the spare tire system was automatic, but rather whether it helped with the 'objective' or clear rules regarding maintaining active membership. At one time, and its fair to argue whether it's truly an issue or not, membership had discussions about too many members that were not participating in trail runs, too many 'web wheelers' etc.... honestly I am not sure I remember other reasons. Basically, there was some consternation about whether we are a web forum or a wheeling club. Truly, we are some of both, but the club rules are there, and whether to enforce them or change them are also valid questions. In a sense, the spare tire idea was a sort of formal allowance to bend the rules and provide 5 strikes and your out idea instead of just one strike. And it was motivated somewhat from an understanding POV that life happens and recreation sometimes gets pushed aside. So I guess my question is, was the idea of reactivating an account 4-5 times (spare tires) worth it, or should we stick to the rules more rigorously and not reactivate so readily, or just remove the concern and never deactivate an account. Just to ask, how often and how many accounts are truly using up the spare tire allowances, or is it just too difficult to keep track of?

As some of the active members of those previous discussions have moved on, and our active members change with time, its fair to revisit. As an 'outgoing' member who will be much less active, JMO, but I continue to support the idea that going on trail runs is paramount. Along those lines, some of the discussion of how often a member logs in, or filtering active/inactive based on forum posts and activity is secondary. Members creating and joining in trail runs is what matters...but that may be harder to filter electronically/automatically via the software.

Also, many thanks to Jim for all the software and forum admin time and effort.

[Tom]

I remember those discussions James and you conveyed them quite accurately. imo

[Jim]

the spare tire idea was a sort of formal allowance to bend the rules and provide 5 strikes and your out idea instead of just one strike.

The reason for the spare tires was to have an objective (written, cut-and-dry, easy to follow and understand) policy for if an account would be reactivated. I, the person sitting in the admin seat, did not want to have the decision being subjective - "the whim of Jim that day".

As I believe the rules to be written, pre "spare tires" was that the decision is solely the admin's call. Reactivation requests, I believe, were unlimited though anyone removed "for cause" the removal is permanent. At some point the admin might "get tired" of reactivating an account where it would be a subjective decision. I wished to remove that subjectivity and move it to an objective policy. The number of spare tires, from the discussion, grew from one or two and settled at five.

I do tend "documenting spares use" when reactivating an account. It was not a tedious issue to document (the spreadsheet makes it easy) as I document re-activations anyway. I find that the "subjective" concern I had has never been a concern. There has been an account or two that have not been reactivated, a wholly subjective call. Fortunately, I saw no grief or angst from such a decision - and thus is why the spare tires policy might not be needed.

If folks don't mind the policy being in the rules, it can stay. I'm agreeable with leaving it in. My point is that I wanted an objective process as I did not want a reactivation to be my subjective decision. In experience, there simply might not be a need and I was looking to simplify the rules (and remove a somewhat negative section of the rules).

[Jim]

Members creating and joining in trail runs is what matters...but that may be harder to filter electronically/automatically via the software.

Correct - getting together in the real world is paramount. Web wheeling does not count.

The software does make it easy to filter by real world activity - The Wheeler (year) badges solidly fill this item. Yes, it is an admin duty to update the wheeler badges, but it is an easy admin task.

When I read a run report I pay attention to wheeler badges and update them. The software can readily filter accounts that are active but do not have a current wheeler badge (really, a badge one year old from current).

[Jim]

is there an obvious way to identify an inactive account?

I do not know of any, non-admin, way to see if an account is inactive.

That said, there is one readily visible stat that can be used to get a reasonable idea if an account is inactive - the Last Online / Last Activity stat. That stat is visible on each post and is visible in the public profile page for each member.

I'd think this account is inactive:
View Profile: AnyHeep - Front Range 4x4 Forums (https://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/member.php?1139-AnyHeep)

[FINOCJ]

Purely my opinion....I am not a huge fan of the 4 spare tires or whatever (felt it was a bit too generous), so fine by me to remove it from the "rules". I kind of like or appreciate the original rules as written....if we want a single spare tire, that would work. I'd say if you go two years without joining a wheeling trip (and no extenuating circumstance like military service), then you are not really a participating member. All the log in or forum activity stuff is less important to me...just my opinion....and also, if the admin management of active/inactive accounts is not benefiting from the four spare tires, or if it complicates it even more, then seems reasonable to remove superfluous "rules" description.

[Bob]

I have no objection to removing the spare tire mechanism; whatever works, is reasonably objective, and is easy to administer is fine.

I agree that no wheeling for two years is probably a good reason to be inactivated. In addition to the example of military service there can be things like medical problems. Consider someone who develops back problems. I’d hate to lose an experienced voice on the forums just because he/she can no longer tolerate bouncing around on trail or riding in a car for hours.

I also don’t care so much about the forum activity as a requirement, but agree it ought to have some weight. I expect that in order to satisfy the wheeling requirement one would typically sign up for a run on the site which perhaps ought to count as forum activity.

[Jim]

Bob, yes, while military service is one item that will keep an account active, health / medical issues is another topic that will keep an account active. Those health "keep active" accounts are not typically advertised or discussed (at least by me, a member might themselves). It comes up from time to time.

[speedkills]

Do we actually ever retire accounts? I see people post who haven't been on a run in the few years I have been here. Not that my opinion should count for too much as I am not one of the members with a long history here, but I would suggest interest in wheeling should matter even for the "keep active" accounts. If you are having some health issues and need to take a couple of years off but plan on getting back to it, I say sure, stick around, but if you sell your truck, lose interest in wheeling and never plan to go again, then the health issue is just a coincidence isn't it?

I guess if you still have interest and want to relive glory days and post pics of wheeling trips from 10 years ago once in a while knowing you will never make it out again, that is even still interesting to me. But if you have just lost interest and want folks to talk to about random stuff, I don't really need to see someone who has lost all interest in wheeling and 4x4 rigs in general making posts about their model train collection or something else completely unrelated to wheeling in the front range.

[Jim]

Do we actually ever retire accounts?

Yes.

I, occasionally (1x to 2x per year), run an "inactivation" process on accounts on the web site. As mentioned prior, from the accounts presented that fit the general search to be inactivated, additional criteria is applied to select accounts for them to not be inactivated. After an inactivation pass, a member might send a message to be reactivated.

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EDIT: "Mostly" the folks that are inactivated are, inactive members. Inactivating them has near zero difference in the forum operation and the inactivation is a formality. A basic of the forum is for the software accounts to reflect who is getting together in the real world (on runs). We have scant few "web wheelers", but they exist. Inactivating such an account is about the only inactivation that might be noticed on the forum.

Running the inactivation process right now.

Step one - search for active accounts that have not logged in for 95 days. 27 accounts fit the criteria. Of those, 10 accounts are removed from being inactivated due to criteria (Founder account, Brody account, accounts that have moved out of state but still have a somewhat recent login, accounts to keep active for cause, accounts that have reactivated somewhat recently, and a couple by subjective admin decision [good folks that wheel a time or two a year but don't log into the forum]). None of those accounts, in my recall, are "web wheeling" folks.

Step two - search for active accounts that do not have a current wheeler badge (wheeler 2021 and 2022 are current). <to be continued>

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Step two stats

Wheeler Year - Accounts found active / Accounts inactivated

2012 - 1 / 1 inactivated
2013 - 0 / 0
2014 - 1 / 1
2015 - 2 / 0
2016 - 3 / 0
2017 - 2 / 1
2018 - 6 / 2
2019 - 6 / 1
2020 - 8 / 0

Of note - from wheeler years 2015 to more current, there were more account left active than were inactivated. Some of these are accounts that should not be inactivated for some reason though some are accounts I subjectively left active. Perhaps on those where I subjectively left them active I should send a PM as to the decision (with a hey - it'd be very nice to see you out on a trail this season)...