Forum "New Member" stats

[Jim]

I maintain a spreadsheet that helps the admin process. One section involves member account info. Out of curiosity I tallied new account sign-ups per year.



2013
122
First entry Feb 10 / not a full year


2014
165



2015
166



2016
135



2017
141



2018
153



2019
31



2020
37



2021
56



2022
7
thru March 26








The 150+ number surprises me in two ways. First, the new member process is not time consuming and I'm a bit eye opened at the number. The effort involved amount seems like it would be in the 10 to 20 members range but the number is much higher. Second, I'd think we'd have more forum activity / run activity - but no. Many of those accounts time out and go inactive with the person never reactivating. That's a higher amount of churn than I would have considered.

The drop in numbers for 2019 finds me curious. 2020 and 2021 can be tacked up to society changes - but I do not know about 2019. Anyone have an idea?

What might we do to have the new folks become more active? We don't care to have high numbers or low numbers - we desire active members on the trails.

[Tom]

Hmm. I guess we’re not the fun bunch we used to be.:lmao:

I am for whatever makes what Jim does around here easier.

[FINOCJ]

Thanks Jim...this is all a piece of the larger discussion also being addressed in the flat/spare tire reactivated account discussions. As you say, it's less about new membership numbers than active memberships. It's hard to say for sure, but it does seem we have less and less posted runs. I have some thoughts on this, completely unverifiable of course, typing single finger on my phone needs a break....I'll get back to them in a while.

[Tom]

I am fine with either and am comfortable with whatever you might decide.

[Jim]

it does seem we have less and less posted runs.

That's my "seat of pants" thought as well. Granted, the past two years is a huge asterisk in the stats book, but I'll say the less amount of runs does go back several years.

Is the "trail run" world changing? Is there a different forum/meet-up in the mix that's having an effect? If it's me/the admin that is a detraction, I want to hear it! If there's a way we can improve - we should talk about it. We don't _need_ to change or improve so long as the folks who are active wheeling members are comfortable with who we are. If we can garner a larger, more active audience I'd be interested in discussing it.

[Tom]

Its not you Jim!

[Jim]

I am fine with either and am comfortable with whatever you might decide.

Thank you, though I wish admin type decisions to be shared by all of us. I wish to hear of any criticism of me personally or the forum software or our group in general. I wish to hear of any comment for improvement.



Its not you Jim!

Thanks Tom.

I'm mature enough to know that actions of an admin can sour participation in a group. That same maturity welcomes sincere criticism. Improvement is a goal.

I'd propose to say, all active members wish the group to prosper. A "nice problem to have" would be one where there are "too many" runs scheduled each weekend such that choosing which to join is "a problem".

[open_circuit]

I wonder if there were some key "influencer" former members who were particularly effective conduits for guiding new folks to this club and forum and the loss of these folks has affected the rate of new memberships. Maybe we're past the peak of the overlanding / 4-wheeling surge and seeing a resulting decline? Hard to say since we can't run a double blind experiment on this one. It does seem like the past couple years we've had fewer runs posted by different club members -- most of the runs seem to be posted by the same handful of members. Several of the folks who planned runs I went on in 2017, 2018 and 2019 have moved away so they are not posting runs any longer.

Just some guesses. I don't think it's "Jim is the problem", but I suppose if I felt that way I may not be checking the threads to even see and respond to this one. Forum membership and thread responses are always going to be a self-selecting (biased) sample. Certainly I can't think of anything I've witnessed Jim do that would suggest "wild forum admin alienates club" or anything of the sort.

[JandDGreens]

I am hoping for a resurgence of active members post government interference in our day to day lives. I don't say this to start a political discussion, but I feel that for the past 2 years it definitely kept many from getting out with groups. And I am one who hopes more people start living thier lives out like they were before 2020. Really there were about 8 of the members who were constantly planning and getting out. I wish I could have gotten out more too! I think the world of of Front Range (members and the format in the way things are ran). I always have a great time with you guys! I'm hoping to join everyone as much as I can this season.

Also Jim thank you for everything you do!

[FINOCJ]

Just my thoughts with regard to perceived decrease in trail runs...the current most active group of wheelers are quite experienced, have more than stock capable rigs, and like running trails on the harder end. I think new members are often lower experience, with more stock rigs (although a lot of off the dealer floor 4x4s are REALLY capable), and are interested to run easier to moderate trails gaining experience.

When I first joined the group, those are the runs I went on as I was figuring out my old cj. In some ways, maybe I was fortunate that Louis was also just getting his old iron out on the trail, and Tim was sort of a newbie running a stock jk. We were able to run a lot of mild trails together, and I would get all nervous looking at runs going to MSV or pickle etc. My old jeep was pretty unreliable and not all that capable (and maybe it still isn't sometimes). Anyway, the point is I think we could use more diversity in trails we run as well as in challenge, and maybe focusing some additional runs towards the easier to moderate difficulty. I think my first year we even had a stocker-no lockers run and there was a lot of discussion of a ladies run etc. Jen drives my jeep some, but she won't do it often on a group run....but bet she'd do it if there was less stage pressure (i.e. being watched by group) and other women etc.

I recognize our anyone can post or lead a run philosophy, but when it comes to new or less experienced members, that philosophy may struggle to support those members that are hesitant, yet still want to go. Our loose community of wheelers works well for those with experience and comfort, but a bit more structure or planned schedule (maybe even 'leadership') in terms of organizing and promoting runs, especially at the more moderate challenge level.

We've never had much in the way of annual planned runs outside of the 2 anniversary and cleanup runs. In my dream world, having 1 easier and one more difficult run sort of pre-scheduled for the main summer wheeling months could really help. Maybe the first and 3rd weekends of June through Sept and we could get them posted early? In my dream world, maybe in March/April, we'd get volunteers to lead these trips...they could pick their favorite trail. But then yes, some of us would have to take some extra initiative to do that. In some way, I feel this has sorta worked with the march and June anniversary runs followed by the July and Sept cleanup runs. Sounds a lot like a paid membership club schedule, but there is a reason those clubs have pre-scheduled runs. Obviously, these scheduled runs would not stop or block any other posted runs like we've always had. Would just provide a bit more structure and planned schedule for those that can benefit from it, as well it might be nice to have some of those focus on easier to moderate runs.

I don't think this idea is the end all solution....there are certainly other things at play. Some of our more passionate wheeling crowd has moved on to more traditional, paid membership clubs, maybe partially to ensure varied trip options. Others (maybe like me) look to expand wheeling to places like Utah and California, and maybe do that through jamborees or brand specific gatherings. In other words, FR4X4 is kind of a secondary or additional wheeling opportunity beyond ones primary 'big' trips.

[JandDGreens]

I am hoping for a resurgence of active members post government interference in our day to day lives. I don't say this to start a political discussion, but I feel that for the past 2 years it definitely kept many from getting out with groups. And I am one who hopes more people start living thier lives out like they were before 2020. Really there were about 8 of the members who were constantly planning and getting out. I wish I could have gotten out more too! I think the world of of Front Range (members and the format in the way things are ran). I always have a great time with you guys! I'm hoping I can get out more his season.
Also Jim thank you for everything you do!

[Jim]

I think the world of of Front Range (members and the format in the way things are ran). I always have a great time with you guys! I'm hoping to join everyone as much as I can this season.

It's a common comment - thus I don't think we're doing anything wrong - I just scratch my head questioning why there is not more activity (specifically now looking at the numbers of new members [when it was 150+]).

Here's to a nice forest trails season!! Hope to shake your hand a time or two!!

[Jim]

when it comes to new or less experienced members, that philosophy may struggle to support those members that are hesitant, yet still want to go.

I'll just pull one small section of your post. I see and understand your points - all of them. Others, please jump in and comment / pick up the torch for some of the ideas tossed about.

I could see a new member / easy trail (stockers / no lockers as you named one) run that might get many of the new sign-ups to SHOW UP. I could see picking up the torch on this. Early season preferred so the rest of the season could be available after the ice-breaker run. I could see it being NOT like a typical meet-and-roll run but rather a meet and spend an hour or two discussing assorted 101 topics (trail etiquette, trail rules / laws, communications, basics of obstacles).

I could see a winching / recovery 101 "run". It might not be so much as a run but more of a find a good location, meet, have each interested person roll through a process of winching / hi-lift use / etc to get some first hand experience.

As you mention a lady's run - certainly! Would it be ladies only or mixed with gals driving? One of each and see how turnout rolls? There are several ladies here that can pick up the torch.

Those things could see new members getting involved (lighting the match).

[JandDGreens]

I
As you mention a lady's run - certainly! Would it be ladies only or mixed with gals driving? One of each and see how turnout rolls? There are several ladies here that can pick up the torch.

Those things could see new members getting involved (lighting the match).
I can't even get my wife to try out driving my jeep? Might get my daughter to do that though. But if the Aniversery run falls on the right weekend, she will probably go along.

[Java]

In 2019 Google made some big changes to the way it handles searches and that may have stopped this site from showing up on searches. People may simply not be finding FR4x4, or not finding it as easily. It might be BERT's fault, I'm pretty sure it's not Jim's. I've been on this site for a while and it's never been this good, full of adults with working rigs and respectful attitudes. Colorado has changed too, this site is largely professional people with heavy work commitments these days and it's hard to coordinate time off. We've had an uptick in wildfires and ofcourse covid, but sometimes things just happen without reason. I wouldn't overthink it.

Edit- just spent some time googling 4x4 group colorado, offroad club colorado, 4x4 denver, and other variations and FR4x4 doesn't show up well. I think it might possibly be an SEO issue.

[open_circuit]

Edit- just spent some time googling 4x4 group colorado, offroad club colorado, 4x4 denver, and other variations and FR4x4 doesn't show up well. I think it might possibly be an SEO issue.

Seems like a very reasonable theory. You're probably on to something here. I didn't find this club via a Google search, but rather via a former member through a post I saw on Reddit in 2017 -- basically pure dumb luck.

[Tom]

Seems like a very reasonable theory. You're probably on to something here. I didn't find this club via a Google search, but rather via a former member through a post I saw on Reddit in 2017 -- basically pure dumb luck.
Did a search as well and we are not even listed in Stay the trail.
https://staythetrail.org/find-a-club/

Edit:
Just emailed them asking why.

[speedkills]

I for one just don't care much for posting runs. I'm definitely part of the problem, and can try to be better about it going forward. I tend to prefer to go on runs others plan or just go by myself and meet folks on the trail. No real reason other than I'm not much of a planner, but that's not a good excuse to put the responsibility of posting runs on everyone else so I'll make an effort to post a few this summer.

[Jim]

I, too, am like Shane. I am more of a react person vs. a planner person. I readily react to new member sign-ups, wheeler badge updates ;-)


As for not showing up on Google - I can open a ticket with the web host to see what they say.


Does anyone know if Google has a "status" function where a URL could be queried for indexing status (outside of trying searches at Google)?


I do somewhat recall an issue of indexing with Google ?? when they stopped indexing sites that were only HTTP ?? If I recall, that was a significant reason why we went HTTPS and the greater expense to do so.

[Spieg]

I suspect the increasing popularity of side by sides (Razors etc...) may have something to do with this as well... I often encounter more of them on the trail than tradidional 4x4s.

[Java]

The most important thing for google indexing is being mobile friendly, most searches and views happen on phones these days so they are focused on that. You are not even added to google if your site isn't mobile friendly, and fr4x4 is not: https://search.google.com/test/mobile-friendly/result?id=hPfEhExId8BsV78gW59r7w If you look at the crawled page the keywords look really out of date too, I'd guess the page headers and such could use a refresh.

https://search.google.com/test/mobile-friendly

If you open Chrome, right click the screen and select Inspect you can see how the site looks on various devices.

[Hypoid]

Did a search as well and we are not even listed in Stay the trail.
https://staythetrail.org/find-a-club/

Edit:
Just emailed them asking why.Several years ago I noticed several clubs' volunteer hours not listed. After rereading the page, I realized that STT listed only STT "members" AKA paying members.

[Jim]

Being 'mobile friendly' is something we could do. It likely would involve upgrading to a current version of the software. I could look into costs. The site uses a few (several) add-ins that Chris tracked down. Off of the top of my head:

Member photo gallery pictures displayed at the top of some pages
The "Back to top" button in the lower right corner
The "Yellow Bar" for upcoming trail runs (calendar events) (partially broken - no longer auto adds the date)
PayPal donate (partially broken due to a security update)
There is probably a longer list - those are the main items

Mobile uploads / photo sizing is perhaps the largest item folks have been working around.

[Tom]

The reply my inquiry of Stay the Trail. I replied with a thank you on all our behalf.

[JRF]

I found you all by googling colorado springs off road club.

Being new to the group, not going on any runs yet, I would like to see run planning posts with a minimum/recommended equipment list. ie: are lockers required to make it, 35's or bigger, stock is fine, etc. I wheel my daily driver, and would like to know at a glance if I need to look at my schedule or if its too much for my current truck, etc.

I realize I could look it up on my own, but a one stop shop would be nice. Like the recent post about the annual run, I've never heard of little moab, and Google had limited info about it. Are there bypasses for the harder obstacles?

[Spieg]

Little Moab/Rainbow Falls is fairly moderate with options around most obstacals but it can be a little tight in the trees so I wouldn't take a full size truck if you care about the paint.

[Jim]

Being new to the group, not going on any runs yet, I would like to see run planning posts with a minimum/recommended equipment list. ie: are lockers required to make it, 35's or bigger, stock is fine, etc. I wheel my daily driver, and would like to know at a glance if I need to look at my schedule or if its too much for my current truck, etc.

I realize I could look it up on my own, but a one stop shop would be nice. Like the recent post about the annual run, I've never heard of little moab, and Google had limited info about it.

We do have a Trail Resources section - though it is rarely used, is incomplete and out of date. We specialize on coordinating runs.

Other sites focus on trail stats. Two sites to bookmark and use for trail information are:
www.TrailsOffroad.com (http://www.TrailsOffroad.com)
www.FunTreks.com (http://www.FunTreks.com) (also - look at buying their books - nice resources to have along in vehicle or just thumb through to get ideas)

Aside from those resources, yes, when you see a run pop into Planning or Planned - jump in and ask how your vehicle might fit with the trail. Others will respond in just as they have in this thread.

After you travel a few trails you'll get an idea of how well you and your vehicle fit the ratings given by Trails Offroad and Fun Treks.

[Java]

I for one just don't care much for posting runs. I'm definitely part of the problem, and can try to be better about it going forward. I tend to prefer to go on runs others plan or just go by myself and meet folks on the trail. No real reason other than I'm not much of a planner, but that's not a good excuse to put the responsibility of posting runs on everyone else so I'll make an effort to post a few this summer.

I'm part of that problem too, I usually do solo runs at the last minute. I don't like feeling responsible for the trail runs either, and when you post it you sort of are. I also don't like vacations with plans, I prefer a list of options to choose from each morning depending on mood which makes coordinating a little weird. Having said that, I'll try to post some runs this year too. :thumb:

[Coonburger]

I am just spit balling here but I think a big thing is the popularity of say 4 wheel groups on Facebook and etc. is hurting the classic forum type 4wheel groups. I think what you are mainly seeing is just that nothing to much more. Possibly some form of frontrange 4x4 marketing may help. More activity on say a FrontRange4x4 YouTube channel. Like I said just spit balling ideas here.

[RockyMtRebel]

First of all, Every interaction I’ve had wheeling with Jim has been a true pleasure (even when I broke my tie rod and Max and Jim brought me home to get a backup and back on trail and helped me change it so I could drive out). in regards to active members, I have noticed a lack of activity from members since joining in 2017. Although I’m not winter wheeling in the front range anymore, I tend to be one of the more active posters for organizing a trail run on here. Granted, I go wheeling more than most but rarely does anyone schedule a run and it’s usually the same folks. Many of the folks that have been here a long time never join us on any runs.
I’ll be back in a month or so and you will see trail planning posts from me again, probably annoyingly 🤣

Ill keep desert wheeling until then

[TDash]

is there really a lack of activity? Other than previous two Snow Winter runs I went on it seemed like the runs I had been on in 2021 people were complaining we had too many people on the run with really big turn outs. I'm thinking specifically of the Miners Gultch run where we split into 2 and the Rainbow Falls anniversary run that even with some snow and mud had a pretty big turn out.

I know for me my rig was in the shop for months so it limited the number of runs I could go on and the Winter runs are tougher on my family but I am planning to get out a bunch this year :)

Will be sad to not see James on runs anymore though!

[speedkills]

Depends on what you consider the base level for activity I guess. Based on Jim's numbers we are not being found by as many people as we used to but we could do a survey and see if people wanted more posted runs which as you point out is probably a separate question. It does seem like in the summer there are usually posted runs pretty much every weekend. In the winter it's much more sparse but personally I just don't consider this a winter wheeling club. I should start posting more snow runs and see if I can get more people interested in snow wheeling. I can understand not wanting to travel somewhere just to find out 10 minutes in that progress is impossible though, which is one of the reasons I have tended to just explore solo in the snow, I'd feel bad if I planned a run, people showed up, and we couldn't get anywhere.

[TDash]

yeah i just don't think there will ever be the amount of traffic for winter runs like there are for summer, some people don't like going when there is a little mud let alone snow. I know for me my family had fun on New Years Day but it made for an incredibly long day, we spent 12 hours in the truck and there weren't many opportunities for the family to get out


I'm just thinking new memberships stats aren't that meaningful, how many of those members when 150 people joined just ended up never posting or joining in on runs? I guess I am just viewing it from a different perspective such as when it's time the site needs donations it gets filled almost instantly. When we have planned runs during good weather a ton of people show up and everyone has a great time. Those are signs of a healthy group in my opinion.

[newracer]

Dedicated topic forums just are not that popular anymore. Most of the ones I frequent, or used to frequent saw massive declines due to Facebook.

[TDash]

facebook groups certainly made a huge impact but i see Discord servers as the current dominating platform

[RockyMtRebel]

What is discord servers, Scott? I’ve used mostly Facebook groups to find folks to wheel with here in California…. But I haven’t found a group like Frontrange4x4….. we have something special here folks!

when I first started going out on trails by myself in my Ramtruck I googled Colorado front range 4x4 and found this great site! I went on some trails with folks and got more and more into it. On one day, we did Storm Mountain and Jim was along (probably my first time meeting him) and we got to a really tight spur that I didn’t want to take my truck down. Jim told me to park it and hop in his Jeep with him. It was awesome and he even let me drive it a little on the way back up. That experience made me decide to buy a Jeep and stop beating on my Ram Rebel 🤣
I did a ton of winter wheeling for a few years but the last two winters I’ve been living in the desert so haven’t been winter wheeling.
Some of the folks I started to wheel with back in 2017 and 2018 I never see on here anymore and most new members introduce themselves only to never be heard from again. However, Jim still wheels more than anyone (I think), I still wheel often (although from afar currently) & a few of you others I can always count on seeing a response or some pictures of a recent adventure….. that’s what I love about this group and why I support the fundraisers and join and coordinate day or week long trips as much as I can. Can’t wait to see you all on the Hole in the Rock trail in mid-May 🤙🏽

[Jim]

On one day, we did Storm Mountain and Jim was along (probably my first time meeting him) and we got to a really tight spur that I didn’t want to take my truck down. Jim told me to park it and hop in his Jeep with him. It was awesome and he even let me drive it a little on the way back up. That experience made me decide to buy a Jeep and stop beating on my Ram Rebel

I do recall - good times.

I question discord too. I have heard it mentioned a time or two but never have / never have bothered to look into it.

[xaza]

I saw it stated already that forums are just not as popular compared to the larger facebook groups. Forums have lag in time for responses and we don't live in a patient world anymore. We have been lacking advertising. Many members used to have FR4x4 stickers proudly displayed on their rigs but I have not seen a sticker production in quite some time. I am guilty of a considerable decline in posting runs over the last few years. Went through some issues with truck and when I got it going again just didn't have the passion I used to. Most of the people I knew and was familiar with had moved on and I just have not developed that relationship with the current group. Add into that my newfound passion of climbing (3 days a week) and now a bike I just am not that actively wheeling hence the reason I am selling both my Jeeps. I plan on getting another Jeep and getting back to some wheeling but I don't see it becoming an every weekend thing like I used to do. More like camping trips with a day of wheeling and a couple days climbing. I am more likely to jump in on a well planned run than to post my own at my current point in life.

[speedkills]

That reminds me, I have a front range sticker I need to put on my rig. I have went to do it twice and backed out thinking I am going to screw it up. I should just bring it on the next run and have someone who has done one before help me with it.

[newracer]

facebook groups certainly made a huge impact but i see Discord servers as the current dominating platform
Never heard of it.

[TDash]

Being 'mobile friendly' is something we could

when I was apart of a ton of forums back in the day I would always interface with them on my phone using Tapatalk it was the best app for a long time but I think it has been pulled from the app store. Might be worth looking specifically into "alternatives to Tapatalk" to see if something new has surfaced taking the place.


What is discord servers, Scott?

I think the best comparison to use to describe Discord is for anyone who has used Slack for business/corporate. If no one knows what Slack is... the next best thing would be Teams whether that's Microsoft Teams or WebEx Teams. If I am speaking a foreign language still at this point... Discord is a free service that's easily accessible on Windows, macOS, android phones, iPhones and web browsers. It was started mostly for gaming communities to communicate with each other for both instant messaging and actually VoIP (voice). It has grown tremendously over the past 5 years and now all kinds of communities not just gaming ones start a discord server for common interests or groups of friends or various communities. I have run some small discord servers with just a handful of people involved, I have a private one that has built in automation with my home media server for notifications, I have been apart of some community ones that have thousands sometimes tens of thousands of members moderated by entire teams.

I use it on a daily basis to keep in touch with some groups of my friends, one way to think of it too is an organized "Group Message" that you can have layers of channels and security to allow for instant communication. For work we use WebEx Teams (Slack is better) to collaborate with my company and even other companies with various teams sometimes per project.

[TDash]

https://i.imgur.com/X7ZvOll.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4iBHEEv.jpg



not saying we need a discord server or trying to push it or anything just saying it's pretty popular and answering the questions. personally i love it. i used to run a website for gaming and we had forums and even a chatroom, that eventually downscaled from forums to just an IRC server then to GroupMe messaging and ultimately to a discord server

[Jim]

So, would a discord server provide the assortment of forum categories, and most importantly, calendar functions with RSVP for trail runs?

[TDash]

forum categories would best be compared to server channels here is a screenshot of one of the servers i'm in as an example but don't frequent too often. This particular community supports this application I use for my home media server so fans and users of the app go in and either ask for help or offer help to people with troubleshooting etc.

This picture is a fairly basic server example and layout of channels.

https://i.imgur.com/70Mxo6l.jpg


some of the bigger servers have really complex integrations with all these bots that can do all kinds of various things. i've used a few bots on one of my servers but have barely scratched the surface really, the possibilities are almost limitless and the communities behind the development for such things is massive.

I have not personally scheduled events with RSVP functionality but I know it's possible, I believe it's integrated already without a bot and I'm sure if the basic version wasn't to someone's liking there are bots you can add that make it even better, my quick searching resulted in this: https://top.gg/bot/616754792965865495


There are probably some people who could feel discord is too intrusive, it's like that instant gratification kind of response and chatting and i know some people just want to be left alone unless they are feeling like it's their time to go browse the forums etc. This would be like if every single new post no matter what topic you got a notification to your phone... obviously you can turn off notifications completely, or for an entire server or even for specific channels but there is a big distinction between this and forums. Each channel is a chatroom so it's possible with multiple people online chatting 100s of messages could get posted while someone hadn't checked their phone it would be difficult to sift through (how important can those 100 messages be though) so basically you fight this with the different categories where some are for BSing and others are for important notices or less used. I know a lot of people even at my work don't like being bombarded with messages and can't concentrate. I seem to operate fine with the distractions jumping between work, teams and discord fluidly but i understand a lot of people aren't used to so many streams of information pouring down on them or rather just have absolutely no desire for such a thing



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ13BA3-NR4


it's much more chaotic and instant than forums, even if it's not a good fit for our group here i recommend you check it out for yourself Jim :) thought i had found a good server invite link for you but it seems to have expired

[open_circuit]

Discord feels like irc more than a message board. I don't think it's a very effective replacement for a forum where you want to reference years old content often, but I'm not much of a discord user so happy to be educated on this. I used to idle on many IRC channels on freenode and efnet back in the day.

Maybe the best analogy is to think of this forum like newsgroups and discord like irc, if you've been around long enough to know all of those things

[speedkills]

My thoughts exactly, these are the yahoo chat rooms of my youth. I'm in a few for conversation, but the synchronous nature of it is exactly why I wouldn't love it as a replacement for forums. I like that I can post something, and three days later someone else can come along and add to it. Discord is pretty real time, you are almost solely (in my experience) chatting with folks who are on at the same time you are.

[FINOCJ]

Think I'll just go to the bar in my jeep, have beer and start up a conversation with the guy next to me...maybe he'll have a 4wd.

[TDash]

for the record i never suggested discord as a replacement for these forums. i was just commenting as others had that forums and their popularity have been dying off over the past decade, for most groups that once relied on forums their needs have changed over time as technology has evolved and created new platforms. for a lot of communities facebook groups either took that place or was a brand new platform for people less familiar with the internet and became so convenient for them to use that it took over, i think that technology has shifted and it's no surprise that we saw facebooks active user count actually decline for the first time ever (personally can't wait until someday in which facebook is nothing more than a memory like AOL and the giant is slain)

discord is much more similar to IRC than forums, that's absolutely true but it's really about 100x better and more advanced than a single server chat. If the requirements of a group align with what forums provide then there is no replacement that will fit those same needs. I know a lot of groups and communities who you wouldn't think could exist in the past without forums and the needs of that community changed overtime and brought them to newer platforms, Pirate 4x4 comes to mind where a lot of those users eventually keep connected on other social media platforms like IG, especially the ones who didn't migrate to irate 4x4. For me as someone who has never liked or been apart of any social media platform with the only exception of using reddit anonymously i still overwhelmingly prefer traditional forums over anything remotely like FB, IG, Snapchat, Twitter, or TikTok.

some companies still rely heavily on all communication through e-mail where as I know some companies literally hate e-mail communication and use a Teams application for nearly all internal communication including sharing files and having meetings. It's all about having the right platform for that group/communities requirements and Shane is absolutely right it's primarily live communication with occasional people coming back to a message when they weren't online.

[speedkills]

I feel doxxed.

[Gearwhine]

In 2019 Google made some big changes to the way it handles searches and that may have stopped this site from showing up on searches. People may simply not be finding FR4x4, or not finding it as easily. Edit- just spent some time googling 4x4 group colorado, offroad club colorado, 4x4 denver, and other variations and FR4x4 doesn't show up well. I think it might possibly be an SEO issue.

I think this is major. I bought my jeep in 2019 and started trying to get involved again at that point. I am new to this forum this year and only heard of this forum by word of mouth by meeting a current member through Cherokeeforum.com. I did plenty of searching, and this website never popped up for me.

[open_circuit]

So we need to sponsor some YouTube interstitial ads? We can be the new "Raid shadow legends".

[speedkills]

Does this mean I'll need to start making my youtube vids longer than 30 seconds?

[Mad Maxx]

So we need to sponsor some YouTube interstitial ads? We can be the new "Raid shadow legends".

:D:lmao:

This post is brought to you by NordVPN. P̶r̴o̷t̷e̷c̵t̷ y̵̛̻̤ö̸̧̳̱̤̺̟́u̴̧̢̱̩̟̲̫̻̿̿̄̿̈͌̚͝r̶̢̃̓͂́͜͝s̶͚͖̍ē̴͘ ̨͎͇͖̓͊̋̏l̴̳̱͇̈́͆͠f̸͎̫͎̱͓̟̝̙͂ ò̷̖̬̋n̵͉̣͐̋̄̾͊͠ļ̷̢̡̡͇̲͑̊ì̵̥̝̫̞̩͠ͅn̷̥̜͍̭̪̝̑ͅẽ̶͒ ̨̟̤͉̻̫̏.....

Others have touched on this already, but I think the big problem is just the platform - the group itself is fantastic. Old school forums like these have fallen by the wayside as people move to big corporate centralize platforms i.e. MeetUp and Facebook.

There's only a couple of possible solutions I could think of to solve that:

1. Give in and move to a big platform (pls no, that's also what sets us apart and why I like it here)

2. Modernize this platform - completely overhaul it with a modern mobile-friendly site.
Problem: That takes quite a lot of someone's skilled time, and might not actually solve the issue since a lot of those people might just search the platform they're already on for 4x4 groups instead of actually searching the web.

Though it might be helped by increasing visibility otherwise, as Tom did on the last page.

[Java]

As I recall there are actually 2 urls for this site; an easy way would be to pick one and make it just a simple one page text only site with a single link to the forum and a short paragraph loaded with keywords, page titles and such the same. Make the page simply responsive so it works on any device and add it to google. Another easy thing is to add a physical address to your google profile, assuming FR4x4 has one. I recently got an email from google telling me:

The Google My Business app is being replaced
Start using Google Maps and Search to keep your Business Profile up to date and connect with customers

So I guess they are becoming more location focused for search results, but I haven't scratched that surface yet.

[Jim]

Yes, there are two URL's:
www.FrontRange4x4.com (http://www.FrontRange4x4.com)
www.FR4x4.com (http://www.FR4x4.com)

The short URL simply redirects into the long URL.

There is a "search friendly" URL which is not mentioned too often (I had to look it up):
www.FrontRange4x4.com/forums/archive/index.php (http://www.FrontRange4x4.com/forums/archive/index.php)


From the comments - the group is mainly the folks who participate. The forum software is by far second place with respect to importance. There is no need to move to new software to have a wider audience. We have a wide audience - but many new members do not get involved. Getting that inactive new member audience involved - no matter the forum software in play - is more on my mind.

I'm not looking to replace the forum software though I do recognize it has some issues, primarily it is not mobile friendly. In this respect, I think mobile is changing to be more friendly to non-mobile web site software. A significant item is uploading photos direct from mobile device to the forum - photo sizing and simply the upload process.

If we did look at changing forum software, I could see us moving to the cPanel (EDIT: bzzt - cPanel is incorrect, vBulletin is what I should have typed) hosted subscription model - auto updates for features. I'm not active in looking to change - but I realize this car is starting to have more "little things" that don't work as they used to.

[Bob]

The problem, as stated by Jim, is that too few new members get involved. So, why not ask them? Take all the new members from the last few years and send them a short email or message. It could ask, what FR4x4 can do to to improve and help them to get out on the trails more often? There will probably be only a few responses but those comments could be very helpful.

I agree the forum software itself is not the issue but it does need some updating. I believe some content improvements are also badly needed. Specifically, I don’t think the content is very friendly to a newbie, nor to an experienced wheeler new to Colorado and the FR area.

I pretended I was in one of those groups and tried to find a place to start. I went to Trail Resources and much of it is either outdated, or good but buried amongst, and in, many different posts, IMO. Example, I didn’t see Trails Off Road mentioned at all, nor the now somewhat dated but still useful Wells books, in the first couple of minutes I looked around( but might have missed it someplace, which is the point). The same is true for the General, Newbies Start Here link.

I don’t think people have the patience anymore to search through a bunch of buttons and posts for what they need. So a link to information critical to newbies and newcomers needs to be obvious on the front page, and then the linked content needs to be easy to absorb and updated from time to time. I think this also applies to the Calendar and related trail forums.

I’m not suggesting that the look of the site needs to be totally transformed, only that more visual emphasis be placed on the key items to help people get involved.

Just my two cents, FWIW.

[Jim]

Thanks for the comments Bob. We'd love it if you wished to pick up the ball for the improvements you see that can be made. I'm interested in a review / change to what an interested person would see when they first visit the site through the initial email messages and logged in experience. I can provide content and make the changes where needed.

As for contacting new members that don't get involved - yes, I plan to do that. I could see it being tied in with a "new member / ice breaker" run.

[a1gemmel]

Hey, new guy here. Just want to add my 2 cents on the forum software in terms of UI/UX (gosh, showing my hand as a software engineer here). It seems a bit outdated in terms of usability and readability, I can offer a few specifics:

- Profile and stats above the post and the length of the "thanks" panel below a post really takes up a lot of real estate. On my 1080p screen I can fit 1.5, maybe 2 text posts on a screen. Most forum layouts put that stuff to the side, which also solves the second issue
- Wide text is hard to read. It's the reason newspapers split into multiple columns. Profiles on the left, and blank space on the right keep text tight in the center of the screen and easier to scan. Pirate4x4 is an example of both of these things.
- On newer forums, clicking into a thread on the "unread posts" pane takes you to the first message you hadn't yet read. Here, it takes you to the beginning of the thread and you have to scroll to the new messages. Maybe there's a way to do that but I haven't found it.

The feature niceties certainly aren't the fix-all for getting new membership, I think that facebook groups are killing forums the same way that marketplace is killing craigslist. It's a shame on both fronts because the FB offerings are much worse products.
I absolutely hate how there's about 50 4x4 facebook groups for Colorado that are some permutation of "CO|Colorado"/"4x4|Offroad|Crawling|Overland"/"Jeep|Toyota"/"Club|Group|Squad|Mafia"...

I swear I'm not just a forum troll, I'll be out for a run as soon as I've sorted out my power steering install which is turning into a lot of custom parts, spring under conversion, panel trimming...

[Jim]

- On newer forums, clicking into a thread on the "unread posts" pane takes you to the first message you hadn't yet read. Here, it takes you to the beginning of the thread and you have to scroll to the new messages. Maybe there's a way to do that but I haven't found it.

Yes, the button exists (see attached graphic).

Here's what I do:

I have this URL bookmarked:
http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/search.php?do=getnew

From that resulting page I middle-mouse-button* click the Go To Last Post button for each thread, opening each in a new tab.

* I typically access the forum via desktop environment. It's a rare day do I visit via mobile. I'm a desktop person and rarely use mobile for any site.

[TDash]

i use both desktop and my phone browser, i don't think it's "terrible" for a mobile experience but certainly isn't optimized. If I only used mobile I could understand people being off-put by it

[TDash]

forgot to mention... the way I found the group years ago was I had posted on https://www.reddit.com/r/ColoradoOffroad/ asking about non-Jeep only groups after being frustrated by searching myself and only ever finding Jeep Only or a few Toyota only type of groups in Colorado. Someone pointed me in the direction of this website and the rest is history. If I was a Jeep owner I probably wouldn't have made it that far because I would have just found one of the other groups. As someone who has never had a FB account the whole FB groups thing would have never worked for me, I know a lot of people on reddit are anti-FB too so it could be a good place to try and recruit if you were looking for new members who aren't very into FB groups.


Another thing you could do if they allow it is try to get traction by having a group at https://irate4x4.com/categories/groups.313939/ pirate4x4 is mostly garbage now, this website apparently replaced it but I don't see much CO representation. It's possible Pirate4x4 still gets more new traffic and you could try having something there as well if they allow it https://www.pirate4x4.com/forums/usa-southwest.95/

[Bob]

Thanks for the comments Bob. We'd love it if you wished to pick up the ball for the improvements you see that can be made. I'm interested in a review / change to what an interested person would see when they first visit the site through the initial email messages and logged in experience. I can provide content and make the changes where needed.

As for contacting new members that don't get involved - yes, I plan to do that. I could see it being tied in with a "new member / ice breaker" run.
Sure, I can take a stab at it. I’m a little busy with helping some people in Ukraine right now, so probably in a week or two if that’s ok.

[JRF]

I don't have a desktop, I am 100% mobile. The site is very difficult to navigate, even with a new "big" phone. The buttons to switch pages are about 0.5mm square. If I enlarge the screen to be able to hit the button I want, it makes the text unreadable. I don't know anything about programming or what it would take, but even just a "view on mobile" button that simplifies everything, taking away a lot of the "artsy" stuff would be helpful.

[Jim]

so probably in a week or two if that’s ok.

Cool. At your leisure.

[Jim]

I don't know anything about programming or what it would take

Thx for the feedback. I've not looked into it. Likely it would be a wholesale upgrade to a new version of vBulletin. I believe tapatalk was used way back (before it was cancelled / before my time).

I did a quick search - different themes is one option.

The forum does have a "styles" setting. The mobile style was turned off - I do recall an issue with it many years back (causing problems). I just turned it on. We'll see if things break for folks (or if life is better). Let me know!

Settings > General Settings > Forum Skin (bottom of page) > Default Mobile Style (if the site does not auto-detect when visiting via mobile device) > Save changes

[Java]

It looks like a mobile upgrade is available https://www.vbulletin.com/en/mobile

[Jim]

Thx. Yes. I could see the site upgrading from this v4 version to current - checking that our add-ins would continue to work.

It seems vB Cloud is unavailable for us as we use third party add-ins for basic functions (RSVP is the big one, Yellow-Box of runs, Back to top button, PayPal donate, garage pictures). I'll check with our host for what they offer with current VB and what the upgrade process would be (how smoothly things will upgrade).

[Java]

I saw the upgrade is 359.00, I'd be glad to pitch in towards that if you decide to go that route. Thanks for doing this, Jim! :thumb:

[JRF]

I saw the upgrade is 359.00, I'd be glad to pitch in towards that if you decide to go that route. Thanks for doing this, Jim! :thumb:

Count me in for a part of the cost too.

[Jim]

Thanks folks. Yes, any financial issue is presented to the group for the group to tend it (or even to decide if the choice should be taken).

[JandDGreens]

Think I'll just go to the bar in my jeep, have beer and start up a conversation with the guy next to me...maybe he'll have a 4wd.

Even though I found FR 4x4 with a search of the web. I feel that most of our active new members have been new acquaintances that we meet and share our group with.
How many times have we been out wheeling and came across someone who was solo and tagged along for the day? And then became a member.

I don't like using my phone for anything ecept communicating with others. I use my tablet for everything on the internet. So the way this site is set-up things run perfectly for me. But I do understand others use thier phone for everything and improvements for them might help.

I hope to see a lot of our members on the anniversary run. Unless something interferes I'm planning on it! CHEERS!