Clutch Questions

[Tom]

So my 2012 has 100k miles on it. The clutch from day one has felt a bit different than any other clutch I have driven.

It feels a bit stranger to me lately and is part of the reason I haven’t been out on a run this year. It could be just me and I am wondering if anyone can assist in determining if its me or something with the clutch.

What I think I am feeling is that sometimes it starts to take when I just start letting off the clutch. Other times it seems further out like its worn. In 4 low it seems to take consistently just an inch or so off the floor.

I don’t want to take it in cause: Oh he’s concerned about the clutch lets sell him one.

Is anyone here able to help me diagnose it? Test drive it etc. I don’t want it failing on a trail and have to be towed out.

Thanks.

[FINOCJ]

Just to ask...I assume it's a hydraulic clutch, so has it ever been flushed with new fluid? Don't know if modern clutch fluid has as much affinity for water as brake fluid, but maybe it's getting a bit of water/condensation in it. My WAG is a seal on the clutch cylinder or slave might be starting to wear. If the slave is inside the bell housing its very difficult to inspect. The master should be able to see seepage.

[Tom]

Just to ask...I assume it's a hydraulic clutch, so has it ever been flushed with new fluid? Don't know if modern clutch fluid has as much affinity for water as brake fluid, but maybe it's getting a bit of water/condensation in it. My WAG is a seal on the clutch cylinder or slave might be starting to wear. If the slave is inside the bell housing its very difficult to inspect. The master should be able to see seepage.
I believe it has been flushed at least once. Will have to check my service records. Excuse my ignorance What is WAG?


I just looked online for symptoms of leaky slave or master and they state the pedal will feel spongy. The pedal feels normal to me when pressed. The clutch just feels like it engages in differing places when releasing the pedal. No indication or sense of any clutch slippage

[Mad Maxx]

I'm not mechanically savvy but I do mostly only drive manuals so I may be able to at least tell you if I notice anything too odd in a test drive. I'd think the trick would be getting together since we live far apart, but we could trade rigs for a bit if you come on this weekend's run. I wouldn't mind since it sounds like it's not obviously about to fail. You could even just do the easy part of Halfmoon Creek with us.

[Tom]

I'm not mechanically savvy but I do mostly only drive manuals so I may be able to at least tell you if I notice anything too odd in a test drive. I'd think the trick would be getting together since we live far apart, but we could trade rigs for a bit if you come on this weekend's run. I wouldn't mind since it sounds like it's not obviously about to fail. You could even just do the easy part of Halfmoon Creek with us.
Thanks for the offer Mark. Can’t make your run this weekend but will be about 1/2 way there on Sunday. My son and I are climbing Sherman Sunday.

Perhaps someone on the front range would offer to drive it.

[FINOCJ]

WAG...wild -ss guess

[Tom]

WAG...wild -ss guess
Thanks. Did you see my update to my response to your initial reply?

[Jim]

I'd be happy to take a look. No telling if I'll be passing by on Saturday...

[Tom]

I'd be happy to take a look. No telling if I'll be passing by on Saturday...
That would be great Jim. If you do Miller Rock I could meet you in Lyons a bit early for a 5-10 min test. I am taking it to Mount Sherman on Sunday regardless.

If Sat doesn’t work for you I could come up your way sometime.

[Jim]

If you wished to stop up Friday aft/eve I expect to be home by 2pm and should be in for the evening. I'd be flexible for a visit at any time.

[Tom]

If you wished to stop up Friday aft/eve I expect to be home by 2pm and should be in for the evening. I'd be flexible for a visit at any time.
Thanks. Can’t do tomorrow.

[Tom]

James. Fluid has been changed and flushed twice. The brake and clutch fluid are in one reservoir.

[Jim]

I'm around the house tomorrow - no plans to leave.

If you wished to visit - let me know a time and I'll be here.

[Tom]

So took it into Stonum Auto this morning. Good new/bad news.
Good news: clutch and hydrolics are fine.
Bad news: Front wheel bearing should be replaced: $1800; front and rear drive shafts should be replace as they have slop. Did not get a quote on those as they need to be measured for length. 2 1/2 inch lift means they need to be custom.

[Jim]

Wheel Bearings, really? It's only ten years old. If you wish a second opinion, I'm game. Replacement shouldn't be overly difficult either. I am still interested in going for a ride and experiencing what you're feeling.


Bearings only are less than $100/side.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/tire---wheel/wheel-end/wheel-bearing/wheel-bearing/2661278750a9/v/a/118666/automotive-suv-2012-jeep-wrangler?q=wheel+bearing


Complete hub assembly is less than $250/side.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/bearings---seals/wheel-bearings-and-seals/hub-assembly/c18983ebadcb/v/a/118666/automotive-suv-2012-jeep-wrangler?q=hub+assembly


Drive shaft - Bill's Driveshaft in Englewood is the long referenced name...
https://billsenglewooddriveshaft.com/

[Tom]

Wheel Bearings, really? It's only ten years old. If you wish a second opinion, I'm game. Replacement shouldn't be overly difficult either. I am still interested in going for a ride and experiencing what you're feeling.


Bearings only are less than $100/side.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/tire---wheel/wheel-end/wheel-bearing/wheel-bearing/2661278750a9/v/a/118666/automotive-suv-2012-jeep-wrangler?q=wheel+bearing


Complete hub assembly is less than $250/side.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/bearings---seals/wheel-bearings-and-seals/hub-assembly/c18983ebadcb/v/a/118666/automotive-suv-2012-jeep-wrangler?q=hub+assembly


Drive shaft - Bill's Driveshaft in Englewood is the long referenced name...
https://billsenglewooddriveshaft.com/

They indicate hub and bearing assembly as at least one bearing in each is pressed in and labor would be more. Quoted parts at 783 for both.

And yes Bills is what I am thinking as well.

[Tom]

Jim, I can drive up you way sometime for you to test drive. I have taxi duty tues-thurs 8-8:30 am and Fridays 4:30 pm (gradkids summer camp). Let me know what works for you and I can come up your way.

I have never done any hub assembly work. I do not think the bearings are urgent. He mentioned they were causing so loose steering. I have noticed steering is not as tight as new but I have driven vehicles with much much looser steering, I am not too concerned.

Have noticed drive shafts make a bit of noise occasionally but not too concerned with that either.

[FINOCJ]

front and rear drive shafts should be replace as they have slop. Did not get a quote on those as they need to be measured for length. 2 1/2 inch lift means they need to be custom.

Stock jeep driveshafts are not known as the highest quality, so replacing them with something better is never a bad idea....but....I would guess both you and many thousands and thousands of other jeeps are running stock driveshafts with small lifts. I only mention it as if you decide to replace (which is not a must), you might find a good deal on aftermarket OEM replacement shafts that are probably higher quality than OEM and maybe much cheaper than custom set-up from Bills. If you replaced with OEM style and got another 10 years out of them - that might outlive the rest of the jeep (like I would never recommend trying to wheel old worn out jeeps!) I would even bet you could buy shafts online that are specific (longer) for the added lift - but pricing may or may not be worth . The jeep lift and aftermarket support for JKs and the like is incredible.


They indicate hub and bearing assembly as at least one bearing in each is pressed in and labor would be more. Quoted parts at 783 for both.
modern unit wheel bearings - I had one replaced on my tacoma a few years ago - think they charged about half that for the entire deal. Not sure what that means given the increase in parts and labor costs over the last couple years...seems high priced, but maybe only a little given the current economics?

[Tom]

Stock jeep driveshafts are not known as the highest quality, so replacing them with something better is never a bad idea....but....I would guess both you and many thousands and thousands of other jeeps are running stock driveshafts with small lifts. I only mention it as if you decide to replace (which is not a must), you might find a good deal on aftermarket OEM replacement shafts that are probably higher quality than OEM and maybe much cheaper than custom set-up from Bills. If you replaced with OEM style and got another 10 years out of them - that might outlive the rest of the jeep (like I would never recommend trying to wheel old worn out jeeps!) I would even bet you could buy shafts online that are specific (longer) for the added lift - but pricing may or may not be worth . The jeep lift and aftermarket support for JKs and the like is incredible.


modern unit wheel bearings - I had one replaced on my tacoma a few years ago - think they charged about half that for the entire deal. Not sure what that means given the increase in parts and labor costs over the last couple years...seems high priced, but maybe only a little given the current economics?
It does seem high, but my starter replacement cost $1000 due to parts shortages for one (had to get one shipped from another dealer at a premium), plus higher labor.

[Tom]

You got me thinking James and you are right. Parts price is way way jacked. They put the part number on the estimate. It turns out its a NAPA part number. See image. They are making a $310 profit. I'd expect some mark up but they likely get a discount from retail already.

(Addendum)
They also had bolts listed at $58 for 6. I thought that outrageous as well, but that is less than I can buy them for. Wondering if they made a mistake. May call em tomorrow and tell them what I found.

[JandDGreens]

Tom why don't you just order the parts, those are pretty easy to install. I can't believe how much they are asking for those hubs. I bought mine for $75 each just a couple years ago.

[Tom]

Tom why don't you just order the parts, those are pretty easy to install. I can't believe how much they are asking for those hubs. I bought mine for $75 each just a couple years ago.
If help was available I might, nut at my age if I had issues...

[JandDGreens]

Are you sure it's the hubs are bad? And not just thecu joints.

[Tom]

Are you sure it's the hubs are bad? And not just thecu joints.
Nope, not at all thus trying to get with Jim.

At any rate I am not to concerned at present. They are not making noise. They said its causing looseness in the steering. The steering is not as tight as new but no way terrible imo.

[RockyMtRebel]

Sounds like they are trying to make $$$$. Take Jim up on his offer and if needed lets get a labor party together at Toms house to fix anything after buying the parts online for reasonable prices. I'll help although I'm not the best mechanic I'm perfectly capable of helping and have done a fair bit of work on my TJ's in the past....

Similarly, I just over paid to have my clutch replaced (only because I have the $$) and it started making noises once it warmed up so I brought back and they are tearing it apart again but this time under warranty.

[JandDGreens]

I'd be willing to help also if the timing is right.

[Jim]

Tom's stopping up to my place Monday morning - we should have a bit more info then.

[Tom]

I'd be willing to help also if the timing is right.
Thanks! What Jim said…

[Tom]

A big thanks and shout out to Jim this morning who gave up a minimum of 1 1/2 hours of his time to help me when he could have been earning his living.

He determined, and I totally concur, there is nothing even slightly wrong with my front hubs or drive shafts. Clutch feels fine and normal to him also.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you Jim!!!!

[Jim]

You're most welcome.

I'm scratching my head at the diagnostics person at that shop (as a kind way to put it)...

[JGRubicon]

Tom, I'm nearby if you want to take my Jeep for a spin, I'm near 21st and Francis. I've got just under 46k on my 2016, and it's built VERY similar.

I will be out of town for 10 days after Thursday around noon, but outside of that, even if it's just for a sanity check or for fun... I know you're responsible, you can always take it for a ride.

I work for myself, so I'm usually around. Just throwing it out there.

[Tom]

Tom, I'm nearby if you want to take my Jeep for a spin, I'm near 21st and Francis. I've got just under 46k on my 2016, and it's built VERY similar.

I will be out of town for 10 days after Thursday around noon, but outside of that, even if it's just for a sanity check or for fun... I know you're responsible, you can always take it for a ride.

I work for myself, so I'm usually around. Just throwing it out there.
A big thank you for your offer Jason, but there is no need. I am convinced the clutch concern was my imagination, and Jim and I proved there is nothing else wrong. Just out of curiosity where do you get work done on your rig? I haven’t found an honest shop in Longmont. obtw I am a block from Garden Acres park, South end.

[JGRubicon]

I figured you were nearby. I thought I'd seen you in the neighborhood a few times. I am on Hackberry, north side of garden acres.

I have not had anyone other than the dealer working on my Jeep, and that was once or twice, esp after they over torqued my lugnuts and I had to drill out a stud.

Luckily I have yet to need anything major. Now that its paid off I am trying to work ahead, all work is done in my garage, so if something goes wrong, I know whose fault it was.

I have air tools and a few nice things, but... working on the ground is still working on the ground.

I will have to find a good alignment shop that understands setting caster and pinion angle on a jeep soon enough.

[RockyMtRebel]

Good News! Love hearing this kind of stuff.

My clutch issues continue, the shop called and said come pick her up. After driving home up the mountain the same clickity sound is back, as I feared it would be once it got all warmed up. I feel like the shift fork return spring in the bell housing is either worn or broken or missing altogether, based on the symptoms and sound. It's like a $5 part but I don't think the shop checked since they diagnosed it as a bad throwout bearing based on a technician hearing the sound for 10 seconds...... I wish I had the guts to open it up and check and replace that spring myself. Its not terrible and shouldn't really hurt anything but it drives me nuts.... lol