Slaughterhouse - Go-4s

[Chris]

October 4th is a planned cleanup of Slaughterhouse funded by a grant to the Go-4's. Since many of us enjoy that trail let's lend a hand. I'm waiting for more details and will post as I get them.

:thunb:

[Jimmy]

Hmmmm... seems that a few of you all could lend some advice to getting that junked Waggy out of there. ;) Actually, that would be a bear of a job given the location.

[Chris]

I'm waiting for details but from what i understand they have (or had) some heavy equipment in there. IIRC the mud pit is/will be inaccessible due to boulders, not sure the junk is still there either. I think there's a lot of cable to be strung...

[Brody]

I am good to go for any trail clean up. I do wonder if the Go4s will show as they were one of the groups that LaDawn and I tried to hook up with a couple of times for their scheduled trail runs. They never showed up, though the runs were posted on their calendar. We finally gave up on them as being a real lamo group-they never showed, never changed posts on their calendar, never returned e-mails or calls. Impressive....Maybe they can clean a trail.

[Chris]

I contacted a guy named Brian who returned my email but I'm waiting to find out what the cleanup entails. I'm all for us lending a hand but will need a bit more info than a date to commit.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I heard secondhand that the mud pits are being shut down... as well as a gate being installed across Crow Creek right after the Slaughterhouse loop, so no access to the remainder of the trail. The gate wouldn't be opened until Spring.

And here I was looking forward to checking out some more of Crow Creek. :(

[Brody]

Count me out. Whereas I have no problem with cleaning up other people's crap in order to keep trails open (or any other areas for that matter), tearing down and hauling out trashed cars, and spending my gas and very limited time doing so instead of other, more enjoyable things, I will no longer be a part of any kind of clean up that entails closing just the kind of trails (Crow Gulch and the mud pits being a damn fine example)that our clean up efforts are supposed to be helping keep open. There needs to be a quid pro quo from the FS or this will start seeming like more government BS in the same lines as paying for use of the national forests, which our taxes pay for to begin with. Yup, pay taxes to keep them maintained, pay the entrance fees, and, then, to top it off, pay about $13 bucks to camp in them.

Makes ya wonder just how much of the seemingly excessive supplies for Lefthand are going to be used for trail closures...cables, posts, cement, etc. Doesn't sound too much like trail maintenance to me. You betcha, work our asses off, hump trash, dig holes and...dig this...at the end of all that work, we will have a smaller, albeit cleaner, area to wheel. Maybe we can help pave the damn trail when they propose that, too. A nice gentle trail that lets everyone have a safe, controlled outdoor experience with little tire or vehicle wear. Maybe with a little bump or two to keep the excitement up, just for thrills sake. Cool, huh?

Maybe it is time to get the old Monkey Wrench Gang out of hibernation. For you younger folks, just google it.

People, let's keep our eyes open here...

[Chris]

Maybe it is time to get the old Monkey Wrench Gang out of hibernation. For you younger folks, just google it.


Hmmm, maybe my memory's failing me but IIRC the Monkey Wrench Gang is about eco-terrorism. Not much there that appeals to me, correct me if I'm wrong please.



People, let's keep our eyes open here...


Our minds too my friend. Trails will be closed and that's a fact.

[SCRubicon]

***

[Brody]

You are right to a degree. The Monkey Wrench Gang was all about preventing building and other destruction of natural resources. Picture Green Peace on magic mushrooms with good intentions and a bad atitude and you will be close.

Yes, I know the trails will probably be closed at some point. Still the point remains: why clean up in an effort to keep them open and, at the same time, help the FS install 'trail closed' signs? I say that, if the FS wants to install 'closed signs', let them do the damn work to install them, not coerce the very group(s) that are trying to keep the trails open do the work. Must make for some good laughs around the FS cookouts......

[Brody]

Steve-wanta put that in English?

[SCRubicon]

why clean up in an effort to keep them open and, at the same time, help the FS install 'trail closed' signs? I say that, if the FS wants to install 'closed signs', let them do the damn work to install them, not coerce the very group(s) that are trying to keep the trails open do the work. Must make for some good laughs around the FS cookouts......

Good point Pete. I myself have been on the fence about this very topic for a while now. Seems counterproductive to our hobby.

[SCRubicon]

Steve-wanta put that in English?

I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face. The Go 4's don't throw Front Range 4x4 under the bus, (at least I don't think they do) so I'll extend them the same courtesy on the open public forum.

[Chris]

I believe that if all OHV people contributed to the improvement of the trails less would end up being closed. The post you're referring to was an email not aimed at us, it was really aimed at FS employees and such.

I'm less than impressed with the Go-4's at this point after not hearing back about the specifics of the Slaughterhouse project. I've not heard a lot of good about them in general and believe in giving everyone a fair shot however not being able to muster an email reply doesn't impress me at all.

[Brody]

They have never responded to any of ours either, nor have they showed up for any trail runs we were supposed to met them on.

Really impressive...you betcha.....their toilet paper probably has directions printed on it....

[Pathrat]

If trails are to be closed for 'restoration' then there better be a grand opening date on paper. And yes, I know, you can sign anything and with a good attorney and infinitely more resources than I have, reneg on the deal.

I can see Brody's point. Why am I being asked to clean it up to shut it down, as if I was the one who screwed the place up in the first place, when I am one who wants to see it taken care of? From another email referenced on this site re: a FS request for a clean up, it seems like I am supposed to be feeling some kind of collective guilt for the sins of the unwashed big truck masses to provide the motivation I need to rise to the task.

I have nothing in common with beer-swilling bubbas on the trail yet I clean up after the mess they leave and tell them to behave when I see them behaving badly. You want to spend money on something good for the Forest Service? How about a campaign of "Dont drink and drive ON THE TRAILS". I like my beer, but not on the trail and it must be awful tempting when you have a few to pitch the cans out the window, judging from the type of trash we pick up. If there was a donation box for the "Dont be a F**ng Idiot When You Go Outdoors", I would pay my tithe. But, I digress.

[Pathrat]

They have never responded to any of ours either, nor have they showed up for any trail runs we were supposed to met them on.

Really impressive...you betcha.....their toilet paper probably has directions printed on it....

I think Aaron and Steve were talking about those guys when we saw a bunch of low and pretty Italian sports cars drive by today.

[Pathrat]

I believe that if all OHV people contributed to the improvement of the trails less would end up being closed. .


:clap: Yes yes and yes, but unfortunately getting everyone to behave and participate is pretty much like :bang:

[Chris]

Carnage is being closed, Lefthand is being restored. Perhaps my not posting the entire email was a mistake.

Here's part I didn't include, does this sound like it's aimed at any OHV folks?

"If you can get away from your desk or other duties and do a day or two of dirty work in the field, give me a call. Even a half day will help since the site is only 20 minutes from Boulder. Unfortunately, we do not have a job code for you. So if you can and want to help talk to your supervisor about it. Please contact me with questions. Cat Luna and Karen Talley can also help answer your questions if I'm not available. Heavy duty work clothes are required PPE: boots, gloves, long pants, and long sleeves. Bring a lunch and lots of drinking water, sun protection, rain gear, radios, etc."

[Pathrat]

Carnage is being closed, Lefthand is being restored. Perhaps my not posting the entire email was a mistake.

Here's part I didn't include, does this sound like it's aimed at any OHV folks?."

No. I am venting at the necessities and the decisions and the politics. I can understand Brody not wanting to help close a trail. I don't want to see trails permanently, and I find that in the current climate, trail closures don't necssarily lead to openings (contrary example of Metberry) I find it hard to imagine that the clubs originally asked are providing 'little interest'. And if the group who adopted the trail is, indeed, not showing much interest, that pretty much sucks.

I have no issue with a call for assistance to clean something up. I can see Brody's point, and it seems that you would like to make it clear that no one is targeting anyone. Point understood.

[Tye]

I will not assist the FS in cleaning trails so they can close them behind me. I enjoy the
adoption of Barbour Forks and will continue to do so even on non scheduled events. I cant run all over Colorado saving trail.
I'm with Pete...if they want to close trails they can do it themselves.

[Brody]

I happen to like Carnage Canyon and have run it many times, all year long. There doesn't seem to be any reason to close it and, repeating myself, I will not participate in closing any trails that I am trying to help keep open. 'Closed for Restoration' is just another way of saying that the trail is closed, please kiss my ass. And again-if the FS wants to close trails, let 'em do all the dirty work (in more ways than one) and lets rejoice that our tax dollars are paying them so that they can close trails and so that we will have less places to wheel.

[Gate Monkey]

When this thread started, The only thing I thought that was odd was our group's aid being enlisted to clean up a trail that is already adopted by another club. I must admit sometimes I don't read as carefully as some on this forum, but until I started reading Brody's posts that we are possibly being asked to prepare trails for closure I did not really get what was going on. Like Tye said in his post, I too like the fact that we have adopted Barbour Forks and I am glad I have made it too each trail clean up event. Like Brody and Tye though, I am not interested in helping the FS prepare trails for closure.

[Chris]

I'm not aware of Slaughterhouse being closed though I do recognize the mud pit is being shut down. I thought, though I may easily be wrong, that it wasn't ever really "open" anyway.

My perspective was pretty simple, a lot of Front Range 4x4 folks like Slaughterhouse and if it takes additional people to help repair damage done by irresponsible wheelers I'm in favor of it.

[Chris]

I will not participate in closing any trails that I am trying to help keep open. 'Closed for Restoration' is just another way of saying that the trail is closed, please kiss my ass.

Nobody believes Carnage will be open ever again.

[Brody]

Slaughterhouse, per se, isn't being closed. They are going to install a gate at the end of the Slaughterhouse loop, where Crow Gulch starts. Crow Gulch used to go all the way to Highway 285 until people bought the land that comprised the last section of Crow Gulch and the FS put a gate there. We drove up to the gate a couple of weeks ago and turned around. Now the FS is planing on putting another gate in at the start to Crow Gulch so that the Slaughterhouse Trail essentially ends at the mud pits, which are now going to be closed.

Although the post suggests that the gate for Crow Gulch still allows for access to the trail, at the FS's whim, the trail will be closed. This is much like the 'surprise' gate that was installed in the middle of Bunce School Road sometime last year. We had run Bunce many times in the winter all the way to where the switchbacks started done into Camp Dick where there is a seasonal gate. Last winter we found out that Bunce was closed less than 4 miles in due the addition of another gate in what is called the Meadows.

As you can see from just these two items, the FS is obviously more concerned with closing trails and limiting access than doing anything to keep them open to the public. Adopting a trial, as we and many other clubs have done, is supposed to help alleviate this problem.

Granted that any government agency is a cumbersome entity, but look at the history for some of these trails. Slaughterhouse was adopted by the Go 4s years ago, Mile High Jeep (I beleive) adopted Bunce/Coney/ Middle St Vrain, The Ridgerunners, in conjunction with other clubs, adopted Carnage/Lefthand, also years ago. These groups have put quite a bit of effort into keeping these trails clean, much like we are doing with Barbour Forks. Now significant sections of these trails have or will be closed anyway.

I am not saying that we shouldn't continue with our (read Barbour Forks) trail cleanups, but we should also let the other groups (no matter how ineffective they are) continue with there own adopted trail cleanups, sans our help. We should also continue picking up and cleaning up any trail we use, just as most of us do anyway.

We should also start looking at some other means or groups to get involved with that are a little more pro active with keeping trails open. The FS, it seems, is most certainly not on the side of 4 wheelers or any other ORV group, no matter what their participation is.

I will say again, before commiting to help with anyone's trail clean up, look or ask if it entails closing off portions of the trail with FS signs. If it does, please take a look at what you, as a person who use these trails, is going to be doing and ask yourself if it is to your or anyone else's benefit (besides some government flunky's) to do so.

There is a saying: Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

[Chris]

Good post Pete, much more even handed than your previous :thunb:

This is a huge issue but I won't cast the FS as the anti-OHV.

[Brody]

No comment, other than the fact that I don't believe that the FS is exactly pro ORV either, simply judging by their actions.

And, ah, yes....I have never in my life been anything close to 'middle of the road'. As they say in Texas " The only things in the middle of the road are dead armadillos and yellow lines." It really isn't any place for anyone who has a working brain, either....

[Pathrat]

We should also start looking at some other means or groups to get involved with that are a little more pro active with keeping trails open. The FS, it seems, is most certainly not on the side of 4 wheelers or any other ORV group, no matter what their participation is..

Stay The Trail? Blue Ribbon Coalition? I don't know much about these two groups, other than reading a few articles on BRCs web page. I should start donating, but that is just me. Point is, what group most effectively promote responsible and inclusive use?

[Brody]

In the last issue of CRAWL magazine, there were quite a few groups mentioned. I'll try to print more information as I get it. CRAWL also printed a clean up article that another group did. In the same magazine, there were about three or four trail run articles and each one stated that theose trail were in the process of being closed and this might be the last time anyone ran them. One of the articles was about Boulder Carnage, but the article didn't print any mention of it's coming closure.

BTW, Justin's War Pig is on the cover of Toyota Owner's mag as well as nice write up.

[Chris]

Stay The Trail? Blue Ribbon Coalition? I don't know much about these two groups, other than reading a few articles on BRCs web page. I should start donating, but that is just me. Point is, what group most effectively promote responsible and inclusive use?

Thanks for mentioning that Stephanie, I'm a member of Colorado Association of 4WD Clubs (http://www.hightrails.org/) and BRC (http://www.sharetrails.org/) both of whom I failed to notify of my new address. :doh:

[Brody]

I will post information as to websites and other contact info this weekend when I finally return from BFE.

I feel that this is also something that we should all get involved with as 4 wheelers, but my main concern is where does the money actually go and to whom or what? I refuse to participate in any organization that can or will not provide a financial accounting of where the money is being spent, whatever the propangada is that the organization promotes: save the whales, save the boulderites, save whatever...

There are way too many organizations, such as Jerry's Kids, where 90% or more of the money received actually goes into the organizer's pockets...or stomachs, as in Jerry's case. Katrina Releif was another one that people actually made money on, where all but 10% of the actual relief money, donations, etc. were put to good use. In fact much of the Katrina stuff was later found stored in warehouses waiting to be resold and never distibuted to the ones in need. Most of the African relief ganizations face the same thing, (but in a slightly different context) where if the donations aren't actually stolen and resold for a profit, very little reaches the people that it is actually for.

What I am saying here is that before anyone actually goes out and jumps on someone's 'save the trails' program and sends in a bunch of hard earned bucks, it would be smart to demand some real information about said organization and a financial accounting. If they can't cough it up, realize that your money is just going to make someone richer. Research on your part via the internet through different sources like the Better Business Bureau, and 4x4 websites would also be a good idea.

I am all for good causes, but I also work very hard doing **** I don't like to do for my money and don't like to promote asses like Jerry Lewis or his ilk. And there are a bunch of them out there....

[Pathrat]

That's why I asked who was effective- I don't want to throw money at cool posters and decals.

[Funrover]

That's why I asked who was effective- I don't want to throw money at cool posters and decals.


I am effective.. LOL Throw your money at me HAHAHA:D

[Roostercruiser]

October 4th is a planned cleanup of Slaughterhouse funded by a grant to the Go-4's. Since many of us enjoy that trail let's lend a hand. I'm waiting for more details and will post as I get them.

:thunb:
let us know my wife and and i could probly help out. if you could send us more details thanxs.

[Chris]

If the Go-4 guy would provide details as I asked by email I'd be happy to pass them on, unfortunately he seems to have no interest in us helping. :confused:

[Brody]

Sounds like typical Go-4s BS...I think you are wasting your time, Chris....

Like we used to say in the South: alligator mouth, hummingbird ass.

Those clowns like to talk the talk and that is about it, isn't it? I, for one, ain't helping them. I'll continue picking up stuff every time I run Slaughterhouse as I usually do. These guys need help with a lot more than picking up trash, you ask me (or not...don't care either way)

[Pathrat]

I am effective.. LOL Throw your money at me HAHAHA:D

LOL!

[Pathrat]

October 4th is a planned cleanup of Slaughterhouse funded by a grant to the Go-4's. Since many of us enjoy that trail let's lend a hand. I'm waiting for more details and will post as I get them.

:thunb:

I see you did not get any information, too bad.

How did they get a grant and for what exactly? Any idea?

[Chris]

Nope, no idea at all. I asked but was never told so I'm moving on, it appears they don't need or want any help.