China Wall 01-11-09

[Chris]

Thanks for Pathrat for putting this together, Brody and Bear for the demonstrations and everyone that turned out for another fun day. I think special thanks also go to the other Chris for providing a real world scenario to provide a most useful recovery demonstration and providing proof that it's good to wheel with other people because sometimes you need more than you carry. ;)

[DETN8R]

Sorry I couldn't make it. Sounds like everyone had a good time

[Roostercruiser]

sounded like fun

[Pathrat]

Like Chris said, THANK YOU to Brody and Bear (4Lolo) for the great demonstrations! We carry Hi-lifts, straps and all the good stuff, but some of us don't know the right ways to use those neat tools. I really appreciate being shown 'how to'. When it comes to the mechanics of things, I have to see it. And we saw A LOT of uses! Thanks Bren for being on winch duty with Brody. The other thank you's go to Larry for the buns, everyone who brought food, and everyone who pulled out their tools and jacks. The New Chris couldn't have set up a better recovery scenario if he tried.

My son specifically asked me to post up that he apologizes for not being more social. He started feeling the effects of my Mongolian Death Cold after noon.

Note to Andy and Tye- yes, I was going too slow on 285, until Tye sped up and got me to get my head out of ...I was, and am, completely wiped out.

I will post pictures when my camera is charged.

HUGE THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO SHOWED UP AND MADE THIS A GREAT EVENT!

:fr4x4:

[Chris]

So what's the report on Andy's truck? Obviously he drove it home but since I bugged out early I'd like to know what was found to be the problem.

It was nice to meet some new folks today since it's been a bit since I've been out!

I'll post some pics soon.

[Pathrat]

So what's the report on Andy's truck? Obviously he drove it home but since I bugged out early I'd like to know what was found to be the problem.

It was nice to meet some new folks today since it's been a bit since I've been out!

I'll post some pics soon.

Me and Tye followed or led him until the turn off from 1-70 onto 6th.

[Chris]

Chris "stuck"

[Funrover]

Looks like the rear wheel is hanging????? Wish I could have made it!

[Brody]

Yes, the rear wheel is hanging, but look at the smile on Chris' face! His wheel skipped right off the snowy rock..10 minutes or less with a winch, but we had the Hi Lift stuff to do, so we used two jacks...creativity, and a long damn tree for a lever...probably the best and most informative recovery 'lesson' of the day.

Anyone see what I said to do for safety earlier that we didn't do on this (Chris' truck)recovery?? Whoever sends in that answer gets two of my tow strap bars!

As soon as I get an answer to that I'll post why I didn't do the safety measure and the reason for it....

My thanks to everyone who helped and brought food, too. Special thanks to Pathrat who doesn't like the cold to begin with and stuck it out all day long when she had the Death Bug...we hope you are feeling better today. Great to meet some new folks, too! No big deal with Hunter...I hope he feels better, BTW...no one expects teenagers to be social unless they are with their peers....And I am just giving him some grief....

I am going to post a couple of things that we didn't cover later on this week. They will be in the 'recovery' section/thread!

[Tye]

Man what a good time...tho' I dont care for the cold stuff. Thanks to everybody who brought there dogs Mator was plum wore out and slept all thge way back including snoring which I could hear above the radio.

It was not that you were driving too slow Stephanie...but 24 started at 7:00 and I cant miss my boy Keifer (Jack Bauer) hes a bad a**.

I'll get what pics I have up this after noon.

[Chris]

Yes, the rear wheel is hanging

Here's a pic before it slid even more...

[Jamie]

Looks like ya all had a good time. Can't wait for more pics

[Chris]

Here are a few more, next I'll have some recovery pics.

[Tye]

That wall gets a little tougher each time I go, I also mentioned that some rocks have been pulled from the rock pile making room for slipping a none option...

[Dirt Claude]

A big thanks to Stephanie for putting this run together, and to Pete, Bear and Bren for doing the demos. I think it's safe to say everybody walked away with a little more knowledge about recovery and how to do it safely. Here's a couple of pics I snapped. - Brad

[4LoLo]

So what's the report on Andy's truck? Obviously he drove it home but since I bugged out early I'd like to know what was found to be the problem.


My best guess without tearing into Andy's front end any farther than we did - was his ADD is acting up. We pulled the drive flange off the hub and he was good to go. He may have some messiness to deal with, but no more inconsistent mystery clunking. It was great to be able to throw in a trail fix on top of all the recovery techniques we covered. :wrench:

[Shameless Plug] Brody's Hi-Lift tube work attachment was killer and we used them several times. If you have sliders or tube work, you should hit him up for one. I see this being a *very handy* addition to any Hi-Lift owners arsenal. [/Shameless Plug]

I have a grip of pictures on my camera, but I need to source a USB cable. I don't have mine with me.

Thanks to all for sharing the pics, food and most importantly - for being such a willing, good-spirited group, even in adversity. That was long overdue for me and just an awesome day overall.

:thunb: To Andy for "giving it hell" when he needed to, potentially at the cost of his ADD. ;)

:thunb: To Chris (Dodge) for being such a willing victim of the rock pile, and wheeling a full-sized rig and wheeling it hard ~ as God intended. :drive: It's been years since I have seen a full sized rig on a trail doing anything other than taking a bypass. Nice job man! I am looking forward to seeing more of the same on the next run.

The :princess: Taco didn't do too badly either. Bashed in front skid and some love on the underbelly. No body damage, which was nice. My DD really needs armor.

~Bear

[Funrover]

Man I really missed a great day, I am glad you all had fun. KEEP POSTING PICS!!!


Is the Toy getting pulled up the wall in 2WD?

[Chris]

Yes, pulled by some of the gang, primarily to keep the front down but a bit of forward power provided as well. Unlocked on that obstacle is tough but hats off to him for trying unlike myself who bypassed it completely being a wuss. ;)

Bear, I have to say your willingness to jump in with both feet any time there was a need was great to see. You exhausted me just watching you manhandle that hi-lift! :cool:

[4LoLo]

Man I really missed a great day, I am glad you all had fun. KEEP POSTING PICS!!!


Is the Toy getting pulled up the wall in 2WD?

Technically - yes, he's open/open :D
But really - no, Andy had 4wd but was getting some clunking when driving - after this obstacle. Sounded to me like the ADD was not fully engaging or possibly some stub shaft issues. My x-ray specs weren't working, but the end of the stub splines and the drive flange looked good. I tend to think he brokededed it doing that climb.

Yes - you missed a great time.

~Bear

[4LoLo]

...Bear, I have to say your willingness to jump in with both feet any time there was a need was great to see. You exhausted me just watching you manhandle that hi-lift! :cool:

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the compliments. I'm told I am a good guy to have on the trail ...once you get past the smell.

And yes - I *do* crap in the woods.

:)

[Chris]

I know the recovery demos were to teach us how to recover ourselves but I came away thinking I just need to make sure I have you and brody with me and I can maintain my preferred position as watcher. :lol:

[Tye]

I know the recovery demos were to teach us how to recover ourselves but I came away thinking I just need to make sure I have you and brody with me and I can maintain my preferred position as watcher. :lol:


Thats what I was thinking...:smokin:

[4LoLo]

Ok folks, I dropped all the pics I had on my camera into Picasa and shared it out. I am too lazy to do the upload through the site. :rolleyes: Feel free to upload anything you find on there to this thread. I'll keep this link up here as long as I don't get spammed etc. If you want to email me your pictures to add to this album, no problem. You may have to PM me to get my email addy and y'all know how often I get on here :o

http://picasaweb.google.com/4LoLoBear/ChinaWall011109#

Enjoy

~Bear

[Chris]

Not so fast Bear, here are a few I took that you can provide explanations for.

These three are the winch recovery using a single snatch block.

[Chris]

These 3 are using 2 snatch blocks

[Chris]

Self recovery w/ winch.

[Chris]

It would be nice if people would add details, tools used, safety tips, etc for those of us with short memory spans. ;)

I'll add pics of Chris' recovery when i get time and don't have a 20 month old poking at my keyboard and using me as a jungle gym...

[Funrover]

Tye - Nice 3 wheel action!

[Tye]

Tye - Nice 3 wheel action!

thankie :drive:

[4Runner3Wheeler]

Answer: Put a shock absorber (weight heavier than 20lbs) on the strap from the tree to the truck.


Yes, the rear wheel is hanging, but look at the smile on Chris' face! His wheel skipped right off the snowy rock..10 minutes or less with a winch, but we had the Hi Lift stuff to do, so we used two jacks...creativity, and a long damn tree for a lever...probably the best and most informative recovery 'lesson' of the day.

Anyone see what I said to do for safety earlier that we didn't do on this (Chris' truck)recovery?? Whoever sends in that answer gets two of my tow strap bars!

As soon as I get an answer to that I'll post why I didn't do the safety measure and the reason for it....

My thanks to everyone who helped and brought food, too. Special thanks to Pathrat who doesn't like the cold to begin with and stuck it out all day long when she had the Death Bug...we hope you are feeling better today. Great to meet some new folks, too! No big deal with Hunter...I hope he feels better, BTW...no one expects teenagers to be social unless they are with their peers....And I am just giving him some grief....

I am going to post a couple of things that we didn't cover later on this week. They will be in the 'recovery' section/thread!

[isotel]

It was nice to meet more of you FR4x4 Guys! i had a Blast in my 4runner.. Stock rigs can be alot of fun.. Too Bad, I messed up my rear Corner of my 1/4 panel pretty bad on the Wall.

Yea those Auto Locking Hubs are pretty Week, and i think 4runner3wheeler Tested his to the Limit.. I have a Set of 27 spline Aisin's for sale if you need some!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_oCWdaa4AUZI/SWuiPGYXgZI/AAAAAAAACOs/Dsg9EKNEdPg/s640/IMG_0778.jpg

[Chris]

Chris' Recovery - being a recovery workshop Chris set up his full-size Dodge on a rockpile with one wheel hanging off the rocks. This would be an easy job with a winch but Brody & Bear demonstrated a recovery using hi-lift and commonly carried equipment along with a bit of improvising with 'found material' such as a downed tree.

Quite a few pics of this...

[Funrover]

Pathrat - did that answer some questions you had?

[Chris]

more...

[Brody]

You got 'em, Andy, and they are ear marked for you on my work bench.

I didn't use the weight on the strap, which I technically should've done, just like I talked about, because 1) There wasn't a lot of actual pressure on the tow strap (but this would've changed very quickly if the truck had skipped back off the rock) and 2) because I had strapped the HiLift to the strap thus providing the weight.

I looked at this and figured it would be ok, but because it was a 'recovery' clinic, I should have erred on the side of caution (never a bad thing) and tossed something else over the strap.

Here is the equipment list that of the things that we used:

2 snatch blocks
4 clevis pins (not including any recovery points on vehicles)
2 20-30' non snatch tow straps
2 Hi Lift jacks
2 dog bone tow strap pins
1 Plywood block for Hi Lift base
1 Shovel
1 Hi Lift tire lift attachment
2 Tree saver strap
1 60' length of old climbing rope

This covers all the equipment used for all of the recoveries. I am going to do a work around for the tire lift (for my own education as well as everyone elses) and will post that up when I work it out. Not everyone wants to spend the $50-60 on a groovy piece of equipment( no matter how sweetly it works) simply due to the need to spend it elsewhere.

[Jimmy]

In looking at the pics, I couldn't help but notice how the "tree savers" were not being used as a saver. I was under the impression that you never wrap a "tree saver" around the tree as in the pics because it tightens up, damages the bark, and thus defeats the purpose of being a "tree saver".

I have seen first hand the damage caused by a strap wrapped, vice a single loop, around a tree, then winched from it. On hardwood trees, it really tears up the tree. Unfortunately, I arrived too late to suggest to the folks that they not wrap the strap around the tree several times.

That's why you should carry short straps to use as a tree saver. In some of those pics, it looks like a 20' or 30' strap thrown around the tree in an effort to shorten it up.

Since I haven't been doing this for 40+ years ;), I'll be glad to hear some wisdom on this. :D

[Brody]

Good point, but mine was way too short and Bear's, Bren's, and Larry's were too long, so long straps it was. Still better than the cable, but I am not going to go out and buy a medium and large tree saver just to be able to mix and match what trees happen to be handy. (Trying to get money together for shocks and hydro assist...)

I figure that I recycle so many pounds of paper to save trees anyway that it gives me a little leeway...I also cleaned up the trash in a fire pit... Besides which, my mental outlook is somewhat messed up simply because I have been in construction (read many, many, many deceased trees) for so many years...

Still a good point, though I have never seen the damage and noticed none to the trees that we tied off to, whereas there were cable marks on one tree that we used and more on another a short distance away.

Oh...nice picture Chris...looks like I am going after the real deal fly meal....

[Jamie]

Great job guys and gals!!!:thunb: Great pics showing it all too.

I did see a pic where the high lift handle was in the down position (no one was in the pic near it) . I was taught to always leave it in the up position? That doesn't mean I was taught right though. What say the board?

[Chris]

Still a good point, though I have never seen the damage and noticed none to the trees that we tied off to, whereas there were cable marks on one tree that we used and more on another a short distance away.

I did take a look at the trees and there wasn't any damage though I understand the same as Jimmy's method as being the best way but this was far better than a cable or chain for certain.


Oh...nice picture Chris...looks like I am going after the real deal fly meal....

Sorry Pete, I didn't notice until you pointed it out. For those that also missed it please note that brody's tongue had already caught the fly. :lol:


I did see a pic where the high lift handle was in the down position (no one was in the pic near it) . I was taught to always leave it in the up position? That doesn't mean I was taught right though. What say the board?

I do recall someone mentioning it at the time but Bear was right back at it thus whoever it was stopped. I can say that Bear was very aware of the hi-lift dangers, took precautions and assured me that he could move very fast.

[Brody]

Great job guys and gals!!!:thunb: Great pics showing it all too.

I did see a pic where the high lift handle was in the down position (no one was in the pic near it) . I was taught to always leave it in the up position? That doesn't mean I was taught right though. What say the board?

Another good point from the guys with the sharp eyes! Up is better...people don't run into it, jarring the jack or clocking themselves. Much safer with the handle up. Thanks Jamie!

And thanks Jimmy, too! Everybody chip in and fill in the blanks..this helps me to stay on my toes a little better and everyone else who was either there or is reading these!

Another point: in the picture where I am going after the juicy fly (big *******, too, and I missed him dammit!) I have an additional rope going to another tree (and yes, I should have slung a tree saver around it, but it was a back up). The reason for this is that aspens have a very shallow root system (as do a lot of trees in Colorado) and I equalized the anchor that was taking the stress off of another tree farther uphill. This way, if the aspen started to go, the pull would be transferred to 2 trees, thus saving the aspen and the truck. This works the same way as equalizing rock climbing anchors and for the same reason, sans tree.

Sad, but true: A couple of friends of mine just did a new route on the Apron in Yosemite Valley. They anchored off to a tree growing out of a crack in the rock, preparing to put other anchors in. The tree gave way, they fell 300' and splattered. I helped carry thier bodies out and didn't like it, so it kinda stuck with me. The climb was named that night in the bar " Anchors Away". Moral being: either the achor is totally bombproof, or equalize or double up your anchors, be it rock climbing or winching....

[4Runner3Wheeler]

Sweet! Thanks Brody.

Now that I have a moment, I want to go on about how great this group is:

Everyone worked well as a team. Everyone is out there to have fun whether it's a run to put your rig to the test or just take in some beautiful Colorado views. Everyone is willing to share what they have with the group, which adds a communal feel. Eveyone is patient and willing to help another and/or offer experiential advice. Overall, it's the people that make wheeling with this group fun and enjoyable.

Pete and Bear, thank you guys for the hammer/drift, helping with my front end, and sharing your knowledge and experience with the group.

Stephanie, good call and thank you for scheduling this; glad we got to get into your bag of recovery goodies. I hope you and Hunter are feeling better. Hugh, thanks for bringing/cooking the dogs.

Tye, thank you for letting me borrow your compressor while we were removing my hub plate. This greatly expedited our way back to Denver. Thanks for the soda too.

Stephanie and Tye, thank you for staying with me on the way back to Denver proper to make sure I didn't have any issues.

Trevor, thank you for the offer, but this round of trail damage officially ends my run with IFS on the Runner. Sorry about the 1/4 panel. You said it best, "This rig wasn't built for this." Mine wasn't either. I knew better than to gun it like that, but when Bear says lay into it, what you do?

Chris (Ram), thank you for the valve stem cap. Sterling, thanks for being helpful and gracious.

Everyone else, thank you for makikng the trip and we missed those of you who did not. Here's to keeping the spirit of FR4x4 going strong:cheers:



You got 'em, Andy, and they are ear marked for you on my work bench.

I didn't use the weight on the strap, which I technically should've done, just like I talked about, because 1) There wasn't a lot of actual pressure on the tow strap (but this would've changed very quickly if the truck had skipped back off the rock) and 2) because I had strapped the HiLift to the strap thus providing the weight.

I looked at this and figured it would be ok, but because it was a 'recovery' clinic, I should have erred on the side of caution (never a bad thing) and tossed something else over the strap.

Here is the equipment list that of the things that we used:

2 snatch blocks
4 clevis pins (not including any recovery points on vehicles)
2 20-30' non snatch tow straps
2 Hi Lift jacks
2 dog bone tow strap pins
1 Plywood block for Hi Lift base
1 Shovel
1 Hi Lift tire lift attachment
2 Tree saver strap
1 60' length of old climbing rope

This covers all the equipment used for all of the recoveries. I am going to do a work around for the tire lift (for my own education as well as everyone elses) and will post that up when I work it out. Not everyone wants to spend the $50-60 on a groovy piece of equipment( no matter how sweetly it works) simply due to the need to spend it elsewhere.

[Warrlord]

I had a great time yesterday. I'm glad I finally got to meet everyone there. A great group of people for sure :thunb:

Thanks Stephanie, for providing the lunch :thunb:

I learned a couple things about recovery that I wouldn't have thought of before. Thanks for the lessons :thunb:

Hopefully, I can make the next run/event. Thanks for making it a great day everyone :)

[Pathrat]

Pathrat - did that answer some questions you had?

And more, plus what has been added to this post!

[Pathrat]

I have an additional rope going to another tree (and yes, I should have slung a tree saver around it, but it was a back up). The reason for this is that aspens have a very shallow root system (as do a lot of trees in Colorado) and I equalized the anchor that was taking the stress off of another tree farther uphill. This way, if the aspen started to go, the pull would be transferred to 2 trees, thus saving the aspen and the truck. This works the same way as equalizing rock climbing anchors and for the same reason, sans tree.

Sad, but true: A couple of friends of mine just did a new route on the Apron in Yosemite Valley. They anchored off to a tree growing out of a crack in the rock, preparing to put other anchors in. The tree gave way, they fell 300' and splattered. I helped carry thier bodies out and didn't like it, so it kinda stuck with me. The climb was named that night in the bar " Anchors Away". Moral being: either the achor is totally bombproof, or equalize or double up your anchors, be it rock climbing or winching....

I didn't notice this in my semi-stupor yesterday. Thanks for mentioning it here as it has added to the wealth of information we all were provided.

Your story brings the safely point home. I never want to do that on any kind of trail.

[Pathrat]

I have seem a lot of posts thanking me for organizing this clinic, etc. I didn't do much, and there would not have been any clinic at all without the people who did the teaching. Thank you again to the Recovery Crew.:bow:

Bear, thanks for taking all those pictures!!!!

[Pathrat]

[quote=Tye;21053]
It was not that you were driving too slow Stephanie...but 24 started at 7:00 and I cant miss my boy Keifer (Jack Bauer) hes a bad a**.
quote]

BTW, guess who was an extra when part the movie Promised Land, co-starring Kiefer Sutherland, was filmed in her high school gym? ;) He was a chain smokin' fool.

[Jimmy]

One of my former wheeling friends back East caught a Hi-Lift handle in the face. Made for one hell of an ugly black eye - she was lucky it only grazed her.

Hi-Lifts/farm jacks are no joke - Treat 'em like you'd treat a loaded gun.

[SCRubicon]

That old 57 Chevy I posted up in the First Car thread had a factory Hi-Lift type jack. You'd use the lug wrench as the jack handle. Holy dangerous Batman! I can see why Detroit stopped using that type of jack. A Hi-Lift is something you should leave alone if you don't know how to use one properly. I'm glad you guys went out as a group and shared some knowledge. :thunb:

[Brody]

One of my first patients when I was doing nursing rotations was a guy who had caught a Hi Lift handle in the nadjoles. His junk was swollen up the the size of grapefruits and was packed in ice. Turned out he straddled the jack to get some more oomph on it. When the handle went, he said his buddies told him that he was pitched about 5' up in the air. At least he passed out....I also know of another guy that lost a bunch of teeth and people get crushed by rigs by doing stupid things with jacks (of any kind) all of the time...

One of the first things I said was : "Doing any kind of vehicle extraction with a winch or Hi Lift jack is dangerous and has the potential to kill you"

[Roostercruiser]

i like the flames on the dodge, great pics and wish i was there:)

[4LoLo]

....
Pete and Bear, thank you guys for the hammer/drift, helping with my front end, and sharing your knowledge and experience with the group.

You're very welcome. Personally, it was my pleasure to be able to lend a hand and some experience gathered the hard way. That's the thing - it's purely a joy to dive and help where one can, for such a great group of people. Anytime.

I meant to ask and forgot. Andy, did your u-joint to skid plate interference noise go away after the flogging? My ears stopped ringing at some point Sunday evening. ;)

[4Runner3Wheeler]

I think you're right about the noise being from the diff to the axle. Removing the ADD plate and allowing the front to free wheel fixed the noise and allowed me to drive home (without a true limp).

My SAS parts order was made yesterday. Scotty, owner of Addicted Off Road in Fort Collins, is performing the swap with the Trail Gear f/r kits. We are adding some gussets and fully rebuilding the axles. Since it is a daily driver, I need this done quickly and professionally for maximum turn around and performance.

Believe me, I'd rather my rig be an extra vehicle that could sit on jack stands as I figured out the install myself. My wife and I cannot afford to have the Runner out of action for too long. I do look forward to personally regearing at some point, adding lockers, and adding some Longfields with the Marlin inner seals.

Next time you see my rig, my avatar and handle will change from 4Runner3Wheeler to 4Runner4Wheeler. :banana:


You're very welcome. Personally, it was my pleasure to be able to lend a hand and some experience gathered the hard way. That's the thing - it's purely a joy to dive and help where one can, for such a great group of people. Anytime.

I meant to ask and forgot. Did you're u-joint to skid plate noise go away after the flogging? My ears stopped ringing at some point Sunday evening. ;)

[Chris]

Cool Andy, I guess a bit of trail damage changed you mind! :thunb:

BTW I, for one, have no problem paying someone to do something to get it done right and quicker. Did that with my conversion from auto to 5-speed.

[fullszfun]

The only think I can think of would have been to strap over the top to keep it from rolling if I would have slipped off any further?

[5280Hawk]

Nice Bond,

I am excited to see it done! Sorry i missed the Trip folks!

[4runner freak]

Nice Bond,

I am excited to see it done! Sorry i missed the Trip folks!

Ditto! Wish I could have joined the fun.

[Brody]

Andy

You won't go wrong with that install! Have Scotty throw the beefy seals in during the axle rebuild as they are only $5-10. They are redesigned to eliminate the leakage due to wheeling flex. See what Scotty thinks....


Hey Fullsizefun (Chris) PM me, send me an email (peterbrody4@gmail.com)or call me at 303-507-3066. I lost your card and your email bounced. I have prices on the steel for the rock rails for you.

[4Runner3Wheeler]

AHHHHHH. That noise. There is still rubbing, but not the painful grinding noise...much better. Thanks.


You're very welcome. Personally, it was my pleasure to be able to lend a hand and some experience gathered the hard way. That's the thing - it's purely a joy to dive and help where one can, for such a great group of people. Anytime.

I meant to ask and forgot. Andy, did your u-joint to skid plate interference noise go away after the flogging? My ears stopped ringing at some point Sunday evening. ;)