GoWheelin.net

[Aaron]

Hey all,

I think that traildamage is a spectacular source on info on trails in our area. They do almost everything right in my book, however, there are a few areas that I think could be better so I decided I was going to try.

I bought www.gowheelin.net a couple of months ago. Initially, this winter, I plan on building it up to include trail information. The main difference between traildamage and the site I want to build is multi - fold. First, I want the site to have trails which are submitted, edited and maintained by users in a controlled manner. Second, I want to allow for the syndication of the data on club sites (like this one). Third, I want the site to support itself. That is, either through paid syndications or ads, the site should be able to create revenue enough to pay for itself. Sites like traildamage are great sites that don't get to live out the full potential because they actually discourage traffic. That is, the more traffic they get, the more it costs them. I'm not making this up. The person that runs traildamage told me this.

The ultimate goal would be for the site to be a platform for club sites to use to build their sites which would include forums, a store (for stickers, hats, donations, etc), trails, technical articles, etc. I wouldn't be replacing front range 4x4, but FR might use some of the functionality or data from the site.

I don't know if it could ever make money, but the reality is, I'd like to build something that people use. Obviously this is a bad time given we all just want to wheel, however, later in the fall and winter, I'd love to see if I could get some help with the site including anything from ideas to help building it and marketing it or anything else...

So here's the questions...
1. Is it a good idea. I know you guys can be brutal and thats what I'm looking for so smack me down Brody :)
2. What kinds of information do you think is missing or could be improved upon as it pertains to our sport? Its a blank slate right now so lets make it whatever it should be...
3. Who wants to help. I want to make this thing useful and almost all of you have been wheeling much longer than I have so I would love to have help/partners in this. Again, the goal is to have it pay for itself so don't have any delusions of getting rich.

Again, I probably won't delve too deep on this till the fall. What do you think?

[Chris]

1. Is it a good idea. I know you guys can be brutal and thats what I'm looking for so smack me down Brody :)


I think it's a good idea Aaron but you already know that. IMHO, the more information the better.



2. What kinds of information do you think is missing or could be improved upon as it pertains to our sport? Its a blank slate right now so lets make it whatever it should be...

I think the concept of trail ratings needs to be refined. I no longer count on a rating to be accurate regardless of which site or which rating system is used. My suggestion would be to have 3 people comment on their experience - a stock truck, a mild build and a moderate build. Rock crawlers don't need a rating system do they?


3. Who wants to help. I want to make this thing useful and almost all of you have been wheeling much longer than I have so I would love to have help/partners in this. Again, the goal is to have it pay for itself so don't have any delusions of getting rich.


I may have time to help but that will be determined when the time comes.

Good luck with this!

[Andrew]

I am pretty good with graphic design and web design if you need help there.

[Brody]

I think it is a good idea, too, but I am leaving myself out of this equation simply because my rig is too set up to make accurate assessments of trails unless they get really hard. Even if I run the hard trails open/open, which I tend to do a lot just for grins, they don't tend to seem hard, merely a mild challenge.

I think that the input you need is from people who have mildly set up rigs or stock rigs, which is what we mostly have on this forum. This is much the same problem I have with rock climbing ratings, too, especially on new routes that I put up when I am climbing well. I tend to have a hard time accurately rating climbs under 5.10 as they just don't seem very hard.

BTW...what is this 'smack down' stuff, anyway? Usually when I say something that gets people going, it is to actually get them thinking for themselves (or thinking period) rather than putting them down.

Aaron would be a really good resource for trail information due to the number of trails that he keeps track of that he has done. Josh (Haku) would also be another good one as he seems to both keep track of all the trails he does and the fact that he is one of the best writers we have on this forum. I would suggest that you PM these guys and see if, or how much, they are willing to contribute.

[Aaron]

I think it is a good idea, too, but I am leaving myself out of this equation simply because my rig is too set up to make accurate assessments of trails unless they get really hard. Even if I run the hard trails open/open, which I tend to do a lot just for grins, they don't tend to seem hard, merely a mild challenge.

I think that the input you need is from people who have mildly set up rigs or stock rigs, which is what we mostly have on this forum. This is much the same problem I have with rock climbing ratings, too, especially on new routes that I put up when I am climbing well. I tend to have a hard time accurately rating climbs under 5.10 as they just don't seem very hard.


Actually, I have two points here. First, I think you would be a GREAT resource given the first stage of creating this site has nothing to do with data. I need to build the infrastructure first which is basically, what types of information do we need to capture and how should it be organized.

Second, when it comes time to actually put in the data, I think you would be a great resource as well. Remember, I'm not building this thing ONLY for FR4x4. It can be syndicated in other forums as well. I think Chris's idea of having ratings and reviews organized based upon the capabilities of the rig (and driver?) posting is a great idea. Drivers of mildly built rigs will see the ratings of people who drive mildly built rigs by default.




BTW...what is this 'smack down' stuff, anyway? Usually when I say something that gets people going, it is to actually get them thinking for themselves (or thinking period) rather than putting them down.

I was just messing with ya. I typically agree with all your rants :)




Aaron would be a really good resource for trail information due to the number of trails that he keeps track of that he has done. Josh (Haku) would also be another good one as he seems to both keep track of all the trails he does and the fact that he is one of the best writers we have on this forum. I would suggest that you PM these guys and see if, or how much, they are willing to contribute.


Absolutely, I'll probably leave it public and get their comments here for now but when we get into the weeds of this thing, I'll see if they can be major contributors.

[Aaron]

I am pretty good with graphic design and web design if you need help there.

Spectacular. Any good with PHP and MySQL? I've come up with a quick logo but it can be changed as well. its already up at www.gowheelin.net .

[Andrew]

I haven't done much with PHP or MySQL, though I work with MS SQL all the time at work. I would be more web design, organization, layout, etc. but less web programming. Haven't had the case to learn it yet.

[Aaron]

I haven't done much with PHP or MySQL, though I work with MS SQL all the time at work. I would be more web design, organization, layout, etc. but less web programming. Haven't had the case to learn it yet.

Thats ok. Phase 1 will be more about how to organize the data I think but its never too early to start thinking about UI design. I have some ideas but I'd love to see what you come up with.

[Andrew]

Well I can't do anything for at least 3 more weeks. Broken thumb does not lend itself to Photoshop work well.

[Aaron]

Well I can't do anything for at least 3 more weeks. Broken thumb does not lend itself to Photoshop work well.

It might be fall before I delve too deep on this thing...

[colomil]

I am a microsoft guy so no php/mysql here...
To do things right you need a full blown content management system or better. Something like Telligent Community would be the top of the line way to do it. There are simpler (and free) systems available at www.asp.net (http://www.asp.net) under the starter kits. DotNetNuke is a popular solution (and free) but it can be complex.


As far as content, I like the stuf on traildamage, but the videos of the trails are always too short and they seem to show the same rigs. The google placemarks & tracks are nice, but you could go one step further and do a 3D flythough using Ms Virtual Earth (bing maps). The toughest sections of the trail shoud have shotos showing why it has a tough rating. And best of all, show the carnage encountered on the trail.

You have a good idea and I think you can build a more robust site than traildamage.

[greenramp]

I like the way traildamage is set up (downloadable way points, google earth trail downloads, etc...) I don't however like the little topo maps that show a squigly red line and no landmark references to where the darn trail is or grid coordinates. I HAVE to download those previously mentioned items to figure it out. I'm not much for reading through 12 paragraphs to figure out where it is.

Trail ratings are great if constantly kept up. Trails change their rating constantly through the seasons and through use.

[Speedwagon]

Love the idea. I actually thought about something like this myself, but only a database for myself.

Is it possible to do it Wiki style? Obviously, some moderating would need to take place as well, but wiki info is usually fairly accurate, and updated often.

[Speedwagon]

Trail ratings are great if constantly kept up. Trails change their rating constantly through the seasons and through use.

I think they are good as a general guide to the trail at a glance. I use traildamage ratings to determine if I want to attemp the trail or not. Of course, the guys at funtreks are pretty good at describing how a trail is too.



3. Who wants to help. I want to make this thing useful and almost all of you have been wheeling much longer than I have so I would love to have help/partners in this. Again, the goal is to have it pay for itself so don't have any delusions of getting rich.

Again, I probably won't delve too deep on this till the fall. What do you think?

I'm in! And I currently have a goal of getting the MOST use out of my little Ranger on 31s as I can...plan to have my skills out perform the truck, before the truck can out perform my skills. And I have no problems running the "boring" trails, either. I want to see them all before I do too much work to my truck.

And if it was wiki style, then people that go out early in the year can update with snow and closure information right away. Avoid a lot of the "is this pass open yet" kind of stuff that CO4x4 sees. Good things to know, like the fact that Guanella road is one lane for a bit, and there's construction vehicles at the entrance to Argentine Pass trail. Not a big deal for me by myself today, but a group would have been hurting if they planned to air down at that turnout there.

[mikem]

I have been doing web application development for about 10 years and have experience with PHP and MySQL. I would be happy to help out a bit, but I don't have a lot of free time to devote to the project. I can provide technical design suggestions, help out with debugging and testing and maybe do a little coding here and there.

I think the idea of a community supported site is a good one. A wiki would be a good way to go. There are a lot of free software packages to start with, so you don't have to waste time re-inventing the wheel.

Before you decide on how to implement the site, spend some time developing your requirements. Write them down. The more detailed the better. If you don't do this now, you will get bogged down in the details later.

Some things to think about:
What are the specific types of information do you want to store and display on the site (trail descriptions, gps files, pictures)?

How are you going to control access to the site (user accounts, information security)?

What are the different roles that end users will have (i.e. administrator, editor, moderator, end-user)?

If the site becomes wildly popular, will your system be able to handle the increase in traffic?


Mike

[Aaron]

I have been doing web application development for about 10 years and have experience with PHP and MySQL. I would be happy to help out a bit, but I don't have a lot of free time to devote to the project. I can provide technical design suggestions, help out with debugging and testing and maybe do a little coding here and there.

I think the idea of a community supported site is a good one. A wiki would be a good way to go. There are a lot of free software packages to start with, so you don't have to waste time re-inventing the wheel.

Before you decide on how to implement the site, spend some time developing your requirements. Write them down. The more detailed the better. If you don't do this now, you will get bogged down in the details later.

Some things to think about:
What are the specific types of information do you want to store and display on the site (trail descriptions, gps files, pictures)?

How are you going to control access to the site (user accounts, information security)?

What are the different roles that end users will have (i.e. administrator, editor, moderator, end-user)?

If the site becomes wildly popular, will your system be able to handle the increase in traffic?


Mike

Hey Mike,

Thanks for this. I am going to assume we have very similar day jobs as the things you mentioned above are all things that I do on a daily basis. Currently, I am a product manager for Oracle. In a past life I was they guy who went and implemented large CRM software implementations and before that I was a Web Applications developer. I have kept up with the applications stuff by doing side work and quite honestly, its more fun than my job.

At any rate, we should go get a beer sometime.

[mikem]

Hey Mike,

Thanks for this. I am going to assume we have very similar day jobs as the things you mentioned above are all things that I do on a daily basis. Currently, I am a product manager for Oracle. In a past life I was they guy who went and implemented large CRM software implementations and before that I was a Web Applications developer. I have kept up with the applications stuff by doing side work and quite honestly, its more fun than my job.

At any rate, we should go get a beer sometime.

A beer sounds good. We can swap war stories.

Mike

[Funrover]

Please have maps that show a little more area. I want to see more then just trail.... like how to get there. Her directions are lagging at times!

[Speedwagon]

It's now November... have you made a move on this at all yet?

And since I recently acquired a BRAT, I am all about doing every trail out there that I can safely get on, until I mod the thing.