Fabrication: Gee, why does it cost money??

[Brody]

Due to a bunch of people that have asked about doing fabrication work and for estimates on fabrication and were surprised that the bumper or whatever estimate was going to cost more than a couple hundred bucks, here is a run down on why:

For starters, most shops that do any kind of fabrication bill their shop time out at a minimum of $65 an hour. The bigger the shop, the more employees, the more insurance, the higher the hourly rate, etc, etc. And a bigger shop with employees, such as High Country 4x4, bills their shop time at around $95-$125 an hour..no matter if they are changing tires or fabricating.

Equipment takes money to maintain and replace. A cheap welder that can do decent fabrication work costs around $600, a stick around $200. And they just go up in price, not down.

A standard Rigid cut off saw goes for over $300. A 4" grinder for around $100 and I go through at least one a year. Bigger grinders cost more. A plasma cutter goes from around $600 and up...way up. I paid over $1100 for mine..

Drill presses run from $200 and up. Drill bits, especially good ones and ones in the more commonly used fabrication sizes, meaning 1/2" and 9/16", cost between $10-18 each. They don't last long either...

Tube benders go from around $300 for the bottom line, up to over $4k. Tube notchers are also priced about the same way. Sheet metal brakes, rollers, lathes,benders, etc are also all very pricey.

It costs money to maintain these tools and/or to replace them.

Then you have the 'stuff' that simply gets used up when you are fabricating anything. Welding wire, depending on what type and where you buy it, runs anywhere from $4-10 per pound....and you go through a lot of wire. Literally pounds of it on a big bumper, rock rails or cage.

The 4 1/2" grinding, cut off wheels and flap discs cost anywhere from $2 to $7 each. On a basic tube bumper, you can expect to go through about 5 and more of these. For a plate bumper, expect to double that.

A 7 1/4" metal cutting blade from someplace like Anchor Tools that will cut 3/16" steel, costs about $50. They do not last as long as you would expect.

A set of tips for the plasma cutter costs about $45, which equates to around $8 a tip. You can easily go through two of these on a fabrication project that requires a lot of plasma cutting use.

Welding tips are pretty cheap, but still cost money, and you use these up, too.

You can easily burn through $30-40 worth of 'disposable' items building a bumper...and a tube one at that. Change that to a plate bumper and you can add another $30 easily...

Steel is also not cheap at all. It goes up and down at a rather alarming rate. What is quoted to you on the day you want an estimate can easily double in price by the next week. Sometimes you can save money by buying steel from the discount bin at the local steel yard. This is your basic hit or miss and you can't always tell what kind of steel you are getting. Not a bad way to go for something not too critical such as rock rails or maybe bumpers, but you do not want to do this for roll cages. New steel sells by the foot...and isn't even close to being cheap, either.

And, least I forget, the steel for your project doesn't somehow just mysteriously appear at the door to your shop. Someone (guess who...) has to go and pick it up. It is about an hour round trip for me to pick up steel, whether I go to DenCol, Altitude, or C&M. That is an hour of my time. If I am looking for bargain steel for you, figure 2 hours as I will have gone down to Altitude Steel at least once to see if there is any discounted stuff that will save you, the customer money.

All of this adds up and totally discounts the experience level that you are paying for to get your project made by a person who knows what they are doing. Many of the people here that do fabrication are not only highly skilled in their trades, but have spent a considerable amount of time and money going to school to learn them. Those who haven't been to school, like myself, at least for welding and fabrication work, have spent a great deal of time learning this on their own. You are also paying for experience when want a fabrication project done.

Metal working simply cannot be done fast, either...period. It cuts slowly, it welds slowly and there is an huge amount of time taken to make sure that the joints are cut right. It is a far cry from doing woodwork, another thing that I am skilled at. You are totally at the mercy of the materials that you are working with. If you try to hurry a welding job, it will not only look like you did, but will not be done right with strong welds.

And, last but not least, it takes time to clean up after a project, which costs someone time and money, there is the electricity that someone has to pay for, and there are the many other items, such as the timer designing the project, for instance, that people need to take into consideration.

So the next time anyone raises an eyebrow at a quoted price, simply refer them to this, or print it and hand it to them, add whatever I managed to leave out, and wish them luck. As far as my quoted prices go for your project, the price I quote you is about as low as I can do it for to begin with. Don't ask me to go lower. If you don't like it, simply go somewhere else and try to find a better price, or offer to do all the grunt work: cutting, grinding and all the clean up..and maybe source and pick up the steel...

Anyone that has helped with a fabrication job, whether it has been grinding or cutting, knows the effort, time, and labor that goes into a relatively simple project, much less a complicated one.

Any people doing fabrication who have run into the same thing that I have been running into, please feel free to add to this. I am sure I missed something, but, like you, simply don't really feel like doing a "Good Samaritan" project for nothing when I am trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over my head. After you drop down to a certain point in pricing, anything lower becomes an insult to you and your skill level. It becomes the equivalent of asking a kidney specialist to do a kidney transplant for a couple of grand...

[4Runninfun]

Pete I wanted to chime in real quick and say that this is spot on. I gotta go change the alternator in my car, i'll post up a more detailed response tonight.

[WINKY]

i thought you did fab stuff for free pete..?:lol:

[Brody]

Yeah, you and a bunch of other people it seems....and because I have lots of money and am bored with nothing else to do....right....

Right now, I am trying to pay bills and eat....

...and that is almost not funny, it is so close to the truth...

[Andrew]

I agree with you. I know people that do fab work and there's no way I wouldn't offer them something even if it was something simple. I know that stuff costs money.

I have been there before too. As a pro photographer, people who know me at work or whatever often balk at what I charge. Well news flash people, my camera equipment is not cheap, and neither is all the time and money I have invested into learning and making myself better at what I do, software upgrades, etc. And I'm actually very cheap for the quality you get - I just have no overhead as far as studio/employees/etc. like other photographers do.

[Funrover]

So you are going to charge me.... WTF man.... don't reality get into this hahahahaha

[greenramp]

Pete, and all
I know exactly where you are coming from. One little known fact in fabrication is consumables, and you covered pretty much all of them. I have built custom buggies from the ground up, I have done small machining work, and everything in between. When my business partner and I formed Billet Tech it was with the sole objective to biuld our own product. By building something that everyone wants you can charge the proper way and cover all these costs while making a profit. We also have done small runs of certain items, which helps spread the labor through each part. One off production is just that One off. You are paying for one item to be built so all the cost of everything is in that one part. Currently my shop charges $75 an hour for Labor (welding, machining, & installation) we also charge $95 an hour for Engineering (drawings, models, testing, programming, etc...) with a one hour minum. The Engineering is what some people have a hard time with. But I have to pay for my education, CPU programs and all the certs to be able to test it and call it good, all for the benifit of the customers product, but they feel this is all inherant and not something they should pay for. Tell that to NASA.

This is one of the main reasons I try my best not to cater to the 4x4 world. You guys are all cheap bastages just like me, and don't have the money to spend just like me. Not that I don't like you, I just don't. Just kidding. I just feel my efforts are more rewarded in building other products that pay more.

2 more examples just to get you thinking (and I have lost a few friends when I started this business because of this)

If I am working... making widgets and you come to my shop just for a small project, whatever it is. Every minute away from my widgets costs me money directly. even if all I am doing is sweeping, I am preparing for my next run of something.

If I don't own the shop and you come to me with your small project, Man I am more than happy to get away from those widgets to do something for you. heck I might even do it for free!

Don't take any of this too harshly, I am very good at multi-tasking and if you don't mind watching me work, I can bull**** very well while I am, and you are more than welcome to stop by, and I always make a few minutes to give advise.... I'm not totally heatless. no comment Aaron.

[Funrover]

no comment Aaron.

:lol::lol:

[1freaky1]

This is exactly one area that has been a problem area for a while now in the custom fabrication world. Most people want a custom built piece of equipment and have no idea what it costs to build and all the behind the scene costs. Right on Pete for posting this bulletin.

I started looking at it this way when I quote a price and someone does not understand or agree with the price; I'll suggest they go price one thru one of the big boy shops (company's) ARB, Fab Four, and the likes to see what their products cost. Also I ask them why they came to me in the first place (cause they already know the big boys charge outrageously priced stuff just to have the namesake so they want a good piece of equipment at a cheaper price.
So I will tell them straight up go price one and then let me know what you find! Example; for a full size pickup figure buying a front bumper that you the customer has to install is going to cost you between 1700-3500 from one of these companies so why do you have a problem if I charge you $1000-1200 for something that will out do most of the line built units that you may have to tweak to fit your ride?
Answer: cause you don't want to spend that kind of money in the first place and want a deal. If I am saving you between $700-2500 why are people thinking they are not getting a deal?

[Pathrat]

I would (and will, really, I swear, I will at some point in time stop talking and pony up the cash and get the work done) much rather give my business to the local guys I know that send $1200 to Warn or ARB or the other mass manufacturers. Sure, many of them make a good products. However, so do the guys here. Brody et al are not going to let a shoddy part roll out of their driveway. They don't want someone asking one of their clients, "Hey, who made that bumper you left back there on that rock?". I want local quality work and I am willing to pay for local quality work (when I work myself up to thinking I can afford to part with the high quality work cash)

[WINKY]

just for the record Pete i have no problem with the price for the sliders and am happy to get work to ya when i get the cash saved to do this. I for one know that getting fab work done from a friend even at a price is going to be FAR cheaper than a shop, plus i get to have it done to my exacting idea. And help too :D I will get with ya when i get the $ for the sliders. hopefully in the next month or 2.

[1freaky1]

Another think to note is Pete and I as I am sure others do not mind giving a quote as long as folks are up front with us that they are seeking a price so that they can come up with the cash to get things built, If this is the case be up front with us and tells us this so we know that you are in no hurry to get going as this is often misleading us into thinking that we' ll need to set up a time to do the job and sometimes miss out on other work for a last minute "whoops I didn't mean right now" statement.

+ to add to your statement Pete about us doing the running after materials it is eating up our fuel to do this which is not cheap running around in your DD for it. And don't even think of having the materials from company's delivered cause there is a charge on it plus you need to have ways or equipment to unload larger things like 1/4" sheet of plate which weighs in close to the area of 360#s a sheet.

[WINKY]

Sean, good points too. No work until money is in hand and then can the material be aquired for the project and then can a date for the build be set as such with my sliders, the money i pay pete for is actually buying the material. then we will set up a date to do the work.

There is no problem with all the stuff being up front and in hand before anything is done, IMO its the best business practice to do when dealing with cash. I feel that if anyone has a problem with this then they need to look elsewhere for the work to be done. We who want stuff done are at the mercy of the person doing the work.

[4Runninfun]

Seams like many understand the idea that fab work isn't cheap no matter how you split it. I almost completely stopped doing fab after the first time. I started adding up all the hours i spent on just one set of land rover sliders and it was obsene. however i did keep going and continually got better. by the time my last order came in (over a year ago now) i was getting pretty good at churning these things out but it still took way more time than i would have thought.

bottom line is you get what you pay for. if you spend $100 on a bumper dont' expect much from it. if someone you know local is willing to build you something jump on it. even if you find you can buy something from an assembly line for a little bit cheaper. the quailty and the input you give to match YOUR applications and your vision will be the difference. nothing like having a piece of equipment that functions and does what YOU want not some fabricator 1000 miles away thinks will work.

[Roostercruiser]

good points.

[WINKY]

just an example, my simple winch mount as it is now was done by the following:
I paid $75 for 2 plates of 5/16 steel
i split the cost of weld wire $50 my part
split the cost of a new tank of air $45 on my part
I paid for the cut off wheels, paddle disks $25, and i sweated my ass off grinding and cutting to get it together
Jeremy welded it for me. He gave me the 2x4 dom box for the structure though which would have run me about $40.
It took about a week to do it here and there and also the paint $30 i paid for.
so really about $230 for the simplest of winch mounts made of 9 peices of steel.

[Andrew]

bottom line is you get what you pay for. if you spend $100 on a bumper dont' expect much from it. if someone you know local is willing to build you something jump on it. even if you find you can buy something from an assembly line for a little bit cheaper. the quailty and the input you give to match YOUR applications and your vision will be the difference. nothing like having a piece of equipment that functions and does what YOU want not some fabricator 1000 miles away thinks will work.

:thunb:

Scotty from Addicted Offroad here built my front bumper. It looks exactly like I wanted, he even cut the frame horns back like I wanted to do to get a better approach angle. And while not cheap it's far better than a cookie cutter aftermarket bumper. And regardless his pricing is very fair.

I'm much more apt to go the custom fab route. My sliders are custom that a friend of mine did. And with materials and what I paid him to do them it was probably close to what a pre-built set would cost. But those you have to pay tax and shipping, etc. And this way I got them made exactly how I wanted and they are more functional than the aftermarkets because they stick out enough to use as a step instead of being so tightly tucked like the aftermarkets.

[1freaky1]

That is another really good point Andrew for anyone wanting aftermarket equipment already made, there is taxes and shipping on that stuff and shipping a front bumper will generally set a person back anywhere from $100-$300 sometimes more depending on the odd size and weight.

[4Runninfun]

:thunb:

Scotty from Addicted Offroad here built my front bumper. It looks exactly like I wanted, he even cut the frame horns back like I wanted to do to get a better approach angle. And while not cheap it's far better than a cookie cutter aftermarket bumper. And regardless his pricing is very fair.


I think scotty is one of the most fair priced guys around, and he does great work to boot. i've only ever seen a few people complain about him, and i wouldn't exactly say they were the most credible people out there.

[Gecko Cycles]

I have so much to say on this it would make me ill thinking about it. We all want a $.99 burger at the cost of our teenagers jobs, now you have to speak Spanish just to order one. We all want a house for $250000 or less at the cost of my job, we all want a free cell phone............try making one of those and see what it would cost you!!.
You compare a custom bumper with one that is made for the masses overseas or even by illegal workers.
One thing that is not mentioned here is that I could loose a finger or worse at the drop of a pin no matter how careful you are. Another thing is how about the costs of researching and picking up the materials, bidding jobs that you don't get and the time it took you to be personable which online companies don't offer. How about what happens when you are no longer able to produce a product at an early age, what do you do? It isn't like we are making $7 Million a year to play a fricken sport and expect some kind of hardship sympathy because we can't play football anymore.

Well I could go on and on. I realize that most of us are having a hard time in this economy but that doesn't mean you have to screw or jipp your friend who is also just trying to make ends meet. Pay for what you get and be greatful that you at least know the person you are helping put food on his or her table.

[1freaky1]

This whole posting has made me think more indepth at the whole thing and here is one more point to consider. If there is a problem with the design or work being done most of us fabricators on here will agree that we will try to go out of our way to correct a problem which also takes up more valueable time or materials. How many big business will do that?

Gecko that is a really good point about the possibility of personal injuries when doing this side work, we know ourselves the chances we take and that is something that people that may not possess fabriction skills are aware of.

[Tye]

Well I know over the last couple a years I have been wanting to get into fab work, for myself mainly. We all know that there is a world of after market stuff on-line and shops in town, and the prices can range aswell get high in the $$$ dept.. I am like anybody else and like to tweek even th eperfect of products.

I know where your coming from Pete... and truly appreciate ALL the help you have given me, I have even more enjoyed assisting you on your stuff, I guess what I'm going on about is, I have an understanding of what goes into the art of fabbing.

Maybe we should get that guy that does the commercials for Budweiser to make one for you "Metal Fab Guy" :thunb:

[scout man]

Seeing as most of the people on this thread are no longer members here, I felt it was time for this to get bumped into life again, as I feel most current members have not read this. Please read this thread!!

[Java]

Too true. It just took me 3 days to do tube doors, a real fabricator would have done it in a morning and better than I can. Custom stuff should cost more than off the shelf stuff, IMO. Conversly, making the same bumper 1000 times should bring the cost down, again IMO.

[carpenle]

You also have to factor in the pride and joy of getting to make something out of nothing. I made my rear bumper, rock sliders, skid plate, and diff gaurd for my CJ. It took me a tone of time to get it all done.

[Mr6dwg]

I admire you guys that can do that stuff. The ability to take metal and create something is truly a gift.

[Jackie]

When Pete modified my stock Rubi rails into steps, I was really impressed. It was my idea - but he took it and ran with it. He did a great job and I paid good money for it (but then we realized the flaw...). the stock rails he welded to were not designed to hold weight, so the steps were not usable. We came up with plan "B" and Pete added braces to the frame making them solid as can be. He did not want to accept money for that mod because he told me he had a reputation as a fabricator to protect and that he was taking responsibility for our oversite in the first place. I argued that I also had a reputation to protect as an honest paying customer and he BETTER cash my my check! He did finally cash it!

Then when my father-in-law was dying and my whole family was a mess (and Britton and I had the front bumper ripped off the Jeep), Pete came to the rescue and installed my new bumper and winch because Britton needed to fly to MN for his dad and I stayed home with Annie. I honestly think Pete didn't want to be paid. But he did eventually cash the check. He was so cool working on the Jeep while having to listen to me and my daughters crying about their grampa. He just kept working...

[xaza]

Thanks for bringing this to life Steve. I am slowly collecting the links to all of Pete's old helpful stuff.

[Rick]

Pete's old helpful stuff.good stuff!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris]

Similar to Jackie's experience, Pete was rebuilding my patio fence when my mother died. He was more than willing to do whatever worked for us as family came to town. We asked him to take one day off then he had to deal with constant interuptions from my family as he tried to work. He had worked on my mothers place so they had gotten to know each other. I'm pretty sure he wasn't as happy to meet some of my family though! :lmao:

Pete had a lot of skills and knowledge to share. I'm glad a lot of it lives on here to benefit others.

[glacierpaul]

Pete had a lot of skills and knowledge to share. I'm glad a lot of it lives on here to benefit others. :thumb:

[94ToyBear]

I stopped helping people that didnt want to help them self. I am more then willing to help others out but in the end have consideration for my time efforts and material. Thanks for your help pete I'm hapoy I got the chance to work on your rig a few times. :)

[Brad]

Pete asked me for help with his engine management issue, I tried my best but just did not get exactly what he was running. Anyone who got close to his rig knew exactly how amazing it truly was, miss you Pete.