educational debt in our life

[WINKY]

I made this a poll, if you dont vote option 3 just leave it as a vote. If you vote option 3 give explanation below please.



So i read an article on cnn about student loans and it hit me....

How is it that we as a nation of debt are able to get out of or stay away from being in debt when the only way to make a life for yourself when you go to school for education is to get into debt with student loans?


It is really sad when i read about a student that has a quarter million dollar debt at the age of 28. Is it really worth going into debt just for an education when the rest of your life will be to work to pay it off? Where is the tradeoff or value in being an endentured servant to the monitary system our country has been forced into?

And to top it off these days experience outweighs education to some degree (not always). I just think it is a waste to get say 8 years of college for lets say a mental therapist, and it takes 30-40+ years to pay off those student loans. I feel that education should be at a much lower cost or even free to those that graduate (if you fail you pay). Grants and funds only cover so much and can only go so far.:(

Your thoughts?

[Brody]

Don't get me started on problems with our system be it education, health, politics, laws, etc, etc. I would run out of space...

I also incurred a healthy student loan debt and had my own go around with those asses. I also paid it off and ended up with 2 degrees...which are obviously doing me a lot of good right now...:D

[Chris]

I'm with Pete on this can of worms...

Barb took one class after HS and decided to work instead. She supported our single income family w/o the 'benefit' of a degree and managed to do well enough for us to retire.

Education isn't an guarantee of financial success. Unfortunately hard work isn't either.

[WINKY]

I will agree with you all. I dont really want to open a can of crap but rather see if its worth it to people to have and pay for a worthless education when someone with a ged can do the same job etc...

[Brody]

For sure. I have a BA in English, minor in Psych and all but a few months of a nursing degree. What am I doing for work? Construction and fabrication...

[Chris]

Lots of variables, many can't be predicted. I was a licensed A&P (now called A&E) mechanic in the early 70's which coincided with a massive slump in the aviation industry and never was able to find a job while my certification was valid. :(

[Roostercruiser]

Sarah went to school for massage therapy. she has an acciates degree in it. $14000 later she worked in her field until she was pregnant for Aly. now her hands swell up and her wrist and back hurt her now...... she really cant do it anymore without pain:(...so shes not doing it anymore as a career:( and she loved it

[Andrew]

I went to community college, got scholarships and paid as I went by working full time. I have no debt from school.

But I agree the educational system is a bunch of BS. I have a piece of paper that says I know something - but I didn't learn a damn thing in college. Classes were repeats of high school. The classes that mattered I already knew more than those who were teaching them.

College does not prepare anyone for the workplace at all. It should focus more on that and also more on knowledge that actually matters. I still don't know why I had to take Chemistry (again, took AP level in high school) in college. It has nothing to do with anything I will ever do in my career. Same with Biology. I can see taking it in high school, but not college unless you're going to be a doc or chemist or something where it would make sense. But then if that were the case, you certainly wouldn't be going to school where I did.

Whatever happened to apprenticeships?

I can't say that college is worth the time/debt because it's not, but then I can't say that it isn't because without that stupid piece of paper employers won't even look at you. Personally I'd rather have a guy that's been working in the field for a while and knows what he's doing than a guy fresh out of some big name college that is only certified on paper and has no real world knowledge.

And our schools are so behind as it is. Maybe if they weren't, then college wouldn't be as necessary for some. But we couldn't let THAT happen now could we?

I knew an exchange student who came here from Japan for a year in high school. He was bored because when he was here he was a year ahead of us. So when he got home, he was a year behind everyone there. Who would want to be an exchange student if they knew that?

[1freaky1]

The thing that really gets my goat on the whole overly priced thing is our government is actually paying people from other countries to go to school here. Some even get full paid tuitions and tax free income while they are in college here. But we as citizens unless we are poor or a minority do not get those same deals so to me no its not worth it. I have a ton of Certificates from college courses and continuing education that does not mean a thing, about the only thing they would be good for is emergency TP while on the trails.

[gragravar]

I'll jump on the pro-education even if it means big loans bandwagon.

I got a college degree in Economics, then went on to get my law degree (3 more years) and ended up taking on about $150K in student loans over that time. I got on a graduated payment plan - one where the student loan payments were lower when I first got out of school and ramped up over time. I have all the loans paid off now.

You'll note that I am not now working as an attorney (that is by choice, I am still in good standing with the bar association and supreme court), so was it worth it? ABSOLUTELY!

The skills I learned in college and law school apply every day. Research and writing, negotiations, contract workings, critical thinking and analysis. I am quite confident that I could not have gotten into the role I am in today, let alone being successful in that role, if I did not spend that money and take on that debt for my education.

Those that look at a degree as just a piece of paper are missing the point. you as an individual are a collection of your experiences throughout your life. Through the process of earning your degree you dont just learn the coursework, you also learn a lot of important life lessons: how to deal with stress, how to compete, and how to perform at a required level. that piece of paper is a signal to employers not that you can do a specific task, but that you are capable of learning and adapting to new tasks.

If I had it to do over again, I would not hesitate to spend the money on college and law school again. With any luck I will have saved enough that by the time my daughters are in school, that wont be a choice they will need to worry about, but if for some reason I dont reach those goals and they are forced to choose between loans or no loans for a college degree, I will encourage them to spend on their education.

[Andrew]

Those that look at a degree as just a piece of paper are missing the point. you as an individual are a collection of your experiences throughout your life. Through the process of earning your degree you dont just learn the coursework, you also learn a lot of important life lessons: how to deal with stress, how to compete, and how to perform at a required level. that piece of paper is a signal to employers not that you can do a specific task, but that you are capable of learning and adapting to new tasks.

I'm not missing the point. It was just coursework to me. All the rest of that stuff I learned before I was even in High School. It's called work, and I did a lot of it growing up. My Dad always had some project going. The other thing about doing all that I did, is I learned a lot from him. I could probably mostly build a house with all the knowledge he passed on. I built sheds and pool houses and roofed and built fences and laid down cement and all sorts of stuff over the years. Wasn't so much fun at the time but sure did teach me a lot. So by the time you're in College - you really should know all about that IMO.

And that is part of the problem with kids these days. Geez I sound old and I'm not even 30 yet.....

Anyway there are so few that grow up learning the value of an honest days work anymore. Everything is handed to them. They don't have to do anything to earn it.

For you, yes loans and the education make sense. You don't just figure out how to be a lawyer. Or a doctor, etc. There are many professions where school is a good idea, and loans are likely to be needed. However there are far more professions out there which do not require it - other than the fact that to be considered you need that piece of paper.

[Mr6dwg]

You all are are voicing the same exact opinions I have. I have been troubled by the fact that lots of money is spent to get an education, and that debt is carried with you for years, trying to get it paid off. I went to college in the early 80's. I, like alot of other people at that time, got a student loan to go to school. My family was not poor and definitely not rich. But the rules were such that my parents "almost" made too much money. I did get a loan and proceeded to school. When I graduated, I was green behind the ears, kicked out to the street of life, and I had no job, and 6 months to pay the loan off. It was very difficult. When the 6 months had expired, I had not totally paid off the loan. I had been busting my butt and had about 1/3 of the loan still to pay off. During the week after the 6 month grace period, a repo company showed up at my house to take my motorcycle as collateral to make me finish paying off this loan. It was very hard for me. This loan helped me get a degree in Accounting. I never used it, mainly due to the market. Most of the companies stated that I needed experience. Without experience, I could not get experience. Twenty years later, I am working on computers. Most of the education, I picked up on my own. I have a son that is graduating next year. I sure hope he gets a scholarship!!

[Dan]

Anyway there are so few that grow up learning the value of an honest days work anymore. Everything is handed to them. They don't have to do anything to earn it.

For you, yes loans and the education make sense. You don't just figure out how to be a lawyer. Or a doctor, etc. There are many professions where school is a good idea, and loans are likely to be needed. However there are far more professions out there which do not require it - other than the fact that to be considered you need that piece of paper.

I agree. I would not hire a lawyer or a surgeon without a degree. But I hire construction managers without degrees. I get calls from kids at college majoring in construction management looking for jobs, but I look more at thier past job history and feel out thier motivation level than at thier book knowledge.

Construction is one of those trades where a kid can learn the basics and the theorys in school, but the application is mostly learned in the field. You may have learned in the classroom when to call in the drywaller, but until you know how to examine the framing and look for the nailers and check for plumb..... you will end up with change orders and missed blocking, etc... If you work for me, you would realize that few things are worse than a change order that could have been avoided!

I will however encourage my kids to go to college. I will help them acquire the financing necessary, but I will not pay for it. I firmly believe that a person will only appreciate that which he worked hard to get. People usually have little regard for the things handed to them. Its easy to piss away a college education if daddy is footing the bill..

[Andrew]

I work in IT. I'd never get a decent job without a piece of paper. I didn't learn much of anything in College/High School about this field....and what I did was because I went beyond what they taught and learned more myself. I've learned a ton actually working in the field though, learning from others about things, researching on my own, etc.

But without having that piece of paper, you don't get considered - no matter what you say you know. Okay that's not true 100% of the time, but I'd say 95%.

So yeah the piece of paper isn't worthless, as it gets you consideration for a position - I'm just upset that this is how it is.

[Even 11]

So I have about 3 semesters worth of an associates in business management, not impressive i know. I am an outside sales rep for Checker/O'Reilly Auto Parts. I know I make less that some of the other outside sales guys with that paper but not by a large amount. My sister has a masters degree in Political Science and Education. guess what she does for a living? She twists ballons on the weekends and has a part time job at a craft store. Does this make much sense? No. Another Friend of mine has an accounting degree and works in a warehouse on the air force academy. He is pushing 40 and still has a loan payment monthly. My SO has an associates degree as a Medical assistant, and some experience, but has been out of work for 7 months, guess who is paying her loans off?

I guess it is worth it for some fields, but not for all. In the end, you need experience to land the job, and the job to gain experience, and paper to get the job to pay for the paper. Where's the logic?

-Dane

[colomil]

I voted option 3. I think the major (and the school) make a difference. In technical or license fields (medicine/law/engineering) the degree is a must. The liberal arts degrees are not a good return on investment if the school is expensive. Some jobs require a degree put have pathetic pay (public school teachers) so if that is the goal, get a degree at a cheap school! If the goal is something technical, I think a little more can be invested in education but I don't think Ivy league is warranted. If running a business is the goal and rubbing shoulders with rich, well-conected people is the goal, then borrow your ass off and go Ivy for an MBA.

I am still paying off some over-priced grad school debt for classes that did nothing for my career. A Master's degree will open more doors but in a smaller pool of jobs. I finished my undergrad in Engineering with plenty of help from the GI Bill so I did not have that much debt right off the bat. That degree has opened countless doors.

If I had to do it all over again, I would do it pretty much the same but would have done more coop/intern stuff and I would have gone right into grad school without taking a break. I would drink just as much beer but I would chase twice as much skirt!

[WINKY]

I will add that the whole "you need experience" even though you have a 4 year degree in what you are applying for is absolute BS.... i think many employers forget that everyone starts somewhere and to let those that have the school smarts start out.

For me I chose to go the military route. I have a "ged" (which is now considered a high school diploma) through the course of 15 years in the industry ive been laid off and started over many times. I now sit at a comfortable paygrade where i should be for my skills.

My biggest pet peeve about our education these days is the cost of so many things being books, supplies and the class! I mean why should it cost so much, i just dont see the connection of 2 years of busting your butt to learn a skill or such and it costs x dollars. What does all that break down to?

2 year degree: say $50,000

books= $?
actual class time= $?
supplies=$?

Where does this money we pay go to? (ive never been to college so i dont know)

[WINKY]

I guess it is worth it for some fields, but not for all. In the end, you need experience to land the job, and the job to gain experience, and paper to get the job to pay for the paper. Where's the logic?
-Dane


well put, this is the boggling factor im having trouble grasping.

its a triangular catch 22.... its almost as if you need to have someone force you through the corporate bs so you can get a start.

[colomil]

I will piggyback what Gragravar said about the "non classroom" skills one learns at a university. My father told me to "immerse" myself in campus life and soak up as much of it as possible. On that advice I joined a fraternity where I learned about parlametary procedure, speech, personnel management, and other skills. I also made connections with people that I talk to even today. The college "experience" is not just a sum of the semester credits earned and the resulting degree. It can be thought of as a 4 year adventure in self-discovery that was paid for with student loans...

After graduation, we all plug into the dull corporate life where we will remain. There is no going back. Sure you can take more courses but the "college experience" is long gone. I had the best time in my life while in college and I doubt I will ever surpass that.

That is why I encourage everyone to go to college. I think it is a right of passage and something you should not deny yourself. Sure it has costs but in the end I think it was the best money I ever spent.

Go see "Van Wilder" for inspiration...

[gragravar]

What does all that break down to?

2 year degree: say $50,000

books= $?
actual class time= $?
supplies=$?

Where does this money we pay go to? (ive never been to college so i dont know)

2 thoughts here:

1) most college costs that are wrapped up into student loans break down to: Tuition, room & board, supplies, and living expenses. It is all of those things combined that can total to $50K or more. for each of those expenses, you can break out further what you get. For tuition you get access to professors, you get the backing and brand (prestige?) of the university to help you in your job search, you get access to the facilities, etc. For room and board, well, you need an apartment or dorm room and food to eat. for supplies you need all those expensive text books - they are expensive because the author and publisher needs to be paid for their time in creating them and there is a limited base of customers who will buy them (they arent going to make the NY times best seller list) , and for living expenses, you get the catch all bucket - the beer fund, the date fund, money for clothes, transportation, etc.

2) the other thought is about the size of the tuition bill itself. that is not exactly done on cost+ pricing basis. Instead, it reflects the opportunity costs and the value you get as a student. Sure a Harvard MBA is expensive, but the median salary of their class last year had a starting salary of $120K and a signing bonus of $20K. prospective students have to weigh both the financial and non-financial benefits they will get from school vs the amount they will have to pay to get that. Schools will reflect the value that they believe a degree from there will achieve in the price that they charge to get that degree.

[Haku]

"Plugging into the dull corporate life" is entirely up to you, and far from required. Really depends on your goals and what "level of living" you need.

I attended 3 semesters of college before realizing that it wasn't doing me any good. Part of that was that I am a horrible student, and have major motivational issues with school. For me, I have to really be interested and passionate about something to want to learn about it. Having to do a bunch of course work in stuff that I'll never need again in my life just doesn't seem like something worth while to me. My parents also realized this, and since they were paying for it at the time, we decided to call it quits and let me take another route with my education.

It really came down to the fact that I was skipping class to go work at the local theater on campus. I was learning more, and having a great time doing it. Not only that, I was getting paid for it, instead of paying for it like all the tech theater majors were. It finally became clear that, for what I wanted to do, I really didn't need to attend school. The cool thing was, all my friends were in school still, and I think I still got most of the "college experience" that many talk about. I still participated in clubs and such (in reality, if not officially as a student).

Since then, I have really focused on learning as much as I can on the job, and supplementing it with specialized classes and seminars. I'm sure I have been passed over by some people because of the lack of a degree, but I've had some awesome experiences so far, and know I have more to come in the future. I've gotten to put some very cool lighting rigs up, designed lighting for some very cool concerts, and have been paid for experiences that many would pay to be a part of.

I do agree that, for specific professional degrees like doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc, that a degree is required. The unfortunate thing about the current climate is, it seems like you need increasingly higher degrees to really make it in those fields. I have many friends who studdied engineering, and were unable to find decent work out of college since all the people with Masters Degrees were sucking up all the jobs. That means they had to get a Masters too, and in some cases a doctorate, just to get a decent job. My sister is going through it right now. She graduated from Haverford College in Philly, which is a very prestigious school and has a higher work load then colleges like Harvard and Yale, but is smaller and less well known. She tried for almost two years to get a job as a teacher, only to find that stupid bureaucratic BS about not having quite the right degree stopped her at every turn (and no teachers license). So $150k in schooling got her a less than $20k a year job as an after school counselor at Denver Public Schools. She is now doing the last part of her intership to become a School Psychologist, which should hopefully provide a better opportunity for her.

JH

[Chris]

Sometimes it's very worth it. My daughter is in the process of getting a loan to get her Masters. Without it she tops out her pay scale in 3 years. With it she'll make a lot more money. Teachers pay is based on education received, not given to others.

[Pathrat]

Like many things in life, what works for one person will not work for another.

I had the 'college experience' for five quarters. It was good, I enjoyed it, and for a while I was on my own to the extent my parents weren't living with me. No, I was not financially self-sufficient. Then I got married, did my term as a military spouse, and had two children. Between Kid One and Kid Two, I finished my undergraduate education. In 2001, I went to community college online to supplement the lack of science classes I took at the university so I could apply for my Pathologist Assistant Board of Registry Certification. I needed that piece of paper, a BS, to do what I do now. It is a requirement and it does not have much to do with my actual job performance.

I have had school paid for, and I have paid for it. I have had responsibilities, a necessary degree, and nine years of experience that have nothing to do with some of the academics of my undergraduate education. When taken together, the gestalt of experience is what I put into it and what I took from it.

College is not for some people, and the degree is, in some industries, being devalued.

[Patrolman]

I have to say that, playing your cards right, education and debt is worth it. I went to one of the cheapest in-state 4 year schools I could, and I ONLY took debt when I had to. My senior year of undergrad I worked 3 different part time jobs and didn't spend a single $ of my loans. I graduated with minimal loans as I worked every year of college. I also wheeled/dealed my way through college, worked any side job that was offered to me, recycled aluminum cans, slept on couches for a short stint, and nearly starved to death I think. Whatever it took.

In regards to my MBA, I have about $22k in debt, but it will pay off. It is also at less than 2% interest for 20 years, so the payments are DIRT CHEAP. Again, went to the cheapest in-state grad school I could find. I am looking at doubling my salary for my next job over what I would be making with a bachelors degree. It is a tough job market right now, and I don't have the experience of senior folks, but I am willing to do what it takes.

[Patrolman]

If I had to do it all over again, I would do it pretty much the same but would have done more coop/intern stuff and I would have gone right into grad school without taking a break. I would drink just as much beer but I would chase twice as much skirt!

Not sure you can really do the coop/intern more and chase more skirt simultaneously, unless of course it is part of the internship. :)

[4Runninfun]

It completely depends on what your degree is. If your major is in psych and all you have is a bachelors well what good does that really do you? it doesn't make you any more marketable in the work force. I'm working on getting my electrical engineering degree. when i finally get done with school i'll be able to walk into a very good job. another part of this is while you are in school get an internship. many companies like helping students out and this gets you that experience that employers want. So yes college is worth it if your degree is something that is marketable.

[colomil]

Patrolman,
Chasing skirt, drinking beer, and doing an internship can all be done with some effective time management ...:D


I think the original question should have been asked with an age context. For an 18yo kid, I would recommend going the state university route and use loans/grants (or join the reserve/guard component of the military for tuition help). For the non-traditional (older) or part-time student, I would recommend going to a school that has specific courses that align with the current occupation. This may be private or community college or an online school. The more flexible and targeted the courses are, the more expensive they tend to be.

[Patrolman]

It completely depends on what your degree is. If your major is in psych and all you have is a bachelors well what good does that really do you? it doesn't make you any more marketable in the work force.

Actually, that is what my undergrad was. ;) But I went into psychiatric counseling and did fairly well right out of school. Better than many of my friends with other degrees, engineering and computer science were the exceptions. They did very well. Since I was working for a hospital system after school, they had tuition reimbursement and paid for my MBA.

My wife on the other hand, no education past HS, and she makes more than I do. She got a LUCKY break about 8 years ago into a financial company where she has done very well. Of course she is at the mercy of the market and if she gets laid off, finding another similar job could be difficult. Sometimes it is all about what you are willing to put into it rather than what you know.

[bskey]

Education isn't an guarantee of financial success. Unfortunately hard work isn't either.

Sad that this is true...... we live in a very precarious time for job seekers.


Whatever happened to apprenticeships?

Great point! I hadn't thought much about that..... I guess internships are available, but they aren't nearly as focused as apprenticeships were.


I would drink just as much beer but I would chase twice as much skirt!

Excellent advice... thank you! ;-)


...why I encourage everyone to go to college. I think it is a right of passage and something you should not deny yourself.

Absolutely! I'm 100% with you on that.


...She is now doing the last part of her intership to become a School Psychologist, which should hopefully provide a better opportunity for her.

School psych is one of the top two shortages in Co schools, so she'll be fine once she has that piece of paper.



I started back to school this semester, and with that took on my first student loan. I have been unemployed most of the year, and my greatest hindrance in this, the most competitive job market in the past 30 years, has been my lack of that piece of paper.

The biggest surprise I have found is the ridiculous racket on textbooks. How is it that I am paying $175 for one history book? It's the eleventh edition. I'm sure there has been such tremendous discovery in our understanding of civilization from Mesopotamia to the Roman Empire in the 2 years that spanned between publication of Edition 10 and 11.... or are the publishers and authors simply finding ways to require vulnerable, often inexperienced, students to spend more money on what is a hope of a better income and life. It's really unacceptable.

Funny enough, I am going back to school for a degree that will land me a job which pays less than the field I was working in prior to being laid off, which did not require a degree (provided I'm not planning to climb too high on that corporate ladder). Teaching is not a high paying job, but I know I'll finally have career satisfaction, and that is worth much more to me than loads of bucks in the bank.

I hope in 3 years I can re-reply to this thread and say yes, I believe student loans are worth it. :thunb:

[4Runninfun]

Actually, that is what my undergrad was. ;) But I went into psychiatric counseling and did fairly well right out of school. Better than many of my friends with other degrees, engineering and computer science were the exceptions. They did very well. Since I was working for a hospital system after school, they had tuition reimbursement and paid for my MBA.


well thats the difference right there you actually put that degree towards your profession. how many others have a psy degree and aren't even remotely looking for work in that area? if you take a psy degree and continue your education (like you did) then yes i can see that totally makes sense. :thunb:

[colomil]

The biggest surprise I have found is the ridiculous racket on textbooks. How is it that I am paying $175 for one history book?

I have a bookcase full of textbooks that probably cost me a few grand and is now worth nothing. It is quite the ripoff. Most scholarships don't cover this stuff.

Try looking on amazon.com, barnes & noble, and other used textbook sites on the internet. You would be suprised what you can find!

[bskey]

Yeah, I actually got a little lucky and got books for one of my classes from Craigslist. Only $70 for those.... what a deal!