Winch cables

[Mporter]

Synthetic vs. wire.

Advantages, disadvantages, what do you use, costs?

[Rob]

Synthetic's safer and lighter but a lot more expensive. Maybe Jock (RockyMtnHigh) can tell you about how well it works and durability. He has synthetic.

[Chris]

Wire, you can pick it up cheap from people that switch to synthetic. :D

[Haku]

Pro's of Each:

Synthetic: Light weight, just as strong or stronger then steel, doesn't recoil/whip when it breaks

Steel: More abrasion resistant (can go over rocks without cutting), better in "hot" situations, cheaper

Essentially, Synthetic is better in almost every way, minus if you plan to run it over rocks a lot, or can't afford it. Essentially, you have to just make sure you take better care of synthetic compared to steel cable. I've heard that some people have had issues with their winch barrel heating up and melting the synthetic rope, but I have a feeling it would only occur with very repeated cycling of the winch on and off. The winch brake is inside the rope drum on most winches, so engaging and disengaging will heat it up.

If price wasn't an issue, I think just about everyone would use Synthetic rope over steel. I know some don't trust it, but as long as you take care of it, the benefits far outweight the costs. Its easily a 20 pound difference between steel and synthetic rope, and its far far safer.

JH

[JeepersCreepers]

Wire, you can pick it up cheap from people that switch to synthetic. :D

x2 :thunb: best way to go for $$$ purposes, but yes synthetic is safer.

[JeffX]

I don't trust synthetic. Be careful with cable....

[RockyMtnHigh]

Haku, has outlined it pretty well, the weight difference is amazing though. When I pulled the 100 ft of cable off my M8000 I weighed it and it came in at just a little over 35lbs, the synthetic I replaced it with was a whole 2 1/2 lbs.

Something that was left out which is a pro for synthetic was the ability to splice a bad spot or a break in the line on the trail, something you can't do with wire.

There are some concerns with the abrasion resistance of synthetic, but they can be easily overcome with the nylon guards they sell or simply putting down a jacket or towel over the area the line comes into contact with.

To address the drum heating up and melting the line, this is true. There are special lines sold to correct that problem, which have a shielded portion of line which remains on the drum, but you'll only encounter that with out spooling, winching out or winching someone / yourself down an obstacle and even then you'll have to do it quite a bit in order to get the drum hot enough to melt the line.

Becareful what you buy, there are some imitations out there found on Ebay. I went with Winchline: http://www.winchline.com/winchline.htm There's some more information on their site to read, this is who Bill Burke recommended and used, I figured if anyone should know it's him and here is what he has to say about that particular winch line: http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/amsteel.htm

I went with the regular 80' 5/16" line myself.

[Brody]

Wire, you can pick it up cheap from people that switch to synthetic. :D

That is it in a nutshell. I may or may not go with synthetic cable when my steel cables finally go. 20 pounds difference on the front of any rig with a winch ain't a big deal. The winch is what weighs the most.

I have also used steel cable for 35-40 years. It lasts a LONG time. Synthetic doesn't. Having also done technical rock and ice climbing using synthetic ropes for 40 years, I have some very real concerns about using them for winching.

If you have deep pockets and a lightweight rig to begin with, synthetic rope is probably the way to go. Bigger, heavier rigs, the weight difference isn't going to matter much, if any, at all. My thoughts are to stick with the steel, put the money where it most matters in other stuff for your rig, and maybe switch to synthetic when you are flush with money and everything else is done.

[porkchop]

sounds like steel is better to me just doesnt make sense to spend so much more just to be a little lighter and not have to stand back from the winch cable

[Hypoid]

sounds like steel is better to me just doesnt make sense to spend so much more just to be a little lighter and not have to stand back from the winch cable
Stand back, mark your safety zones, watch your surroundings, keep people out of the way, use a damper...

Respect the steel, you'll live to tell!

[BLUE THUNDER]

I trust my synthetic line more then steel cable. I've seen some nasty videos online with steel cables.

[A-TRAC]

Like mentioned above, definite pros and cons to both synthetic and steel.

Synthetic is safer and lighter, but more $$.

Steel is heavier, not as safe if it breaks, but less $$.

I've never had my steel line rub against anything while winching in Colorado, but it's a different story in Moab and Arizona.

Not sure how the synthetic line would do on hot rocks.

Here a picture of me winching somebody up the Escalator on Hells Revenge. The guys with synthetic lines didn't want to use their winches.

If you look closely in the picture, you can see how my steel winch line had made a fresh groove in the rock.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/khalidafridi/Moab%20Mayhem%202009/IMG_9081.jpg





Key thing with steel lines is, stand away from them and use a damper or blanket or something, because if it breaks, you definitely don't want to be in the steel lines way.


http://www.arbusa.com/uploads/Images/towStrapsRecoveryGear/recoveryDamperMain.jpg

[A-TRAC]

Forgot to mention that the FJC I was winching up had a synthetic line as well and didn't want to use it. You can actually see it sticking out of his bumper.

[Mporter]

Well i figured this is a good enough thread to ask in as well (even if I am hijacking my own thread)

What's your stand on Hawse/Roller fairleads?
I heard that Hawse is more for synthetic and Roller's for Steel, but I've seen em run both ways.

[Patrolman]

I agree with Chris. I have gotten brand new steel lines for next to nothing for my winches. I run rollers because I get brand new ones dirt cheap as well. Price dictates most of what I do with my rigs. 20 or 30 pounds of weight isn't a big deal in my book. There are other ways to save weight.

[A-TRAC]

Well i figured this is a good enough thread to ask in as well (even if I am hijacking my own thread)

What's your stand on Hawse/Roller fairleads?
I heard that Hawse is more for synthetic and Roller's for Steel, but I've seen em run both ways.

A roller fairlead would have killed the approach angle on my bumper, so I went with a steel hawse. I've winched 17 times with it and haven't had any issues yet. The steel cable has eaten up the steel hawse though, so I'd definitely not recommend using an aluminum hawse with a steel cable.

And, if would be kinda pointless to use a roller fairlead with a synthetic line.

So, if you can tuck away a roller fairlead in your bumper without compromising your approach angle, go for it.

Unfortunately, with my bumper and the kind of wheeling I do, a roller fairlead was not an option.

Second picture shows that I'd have hit my roller fairlead if I had one. Those things stick out at least 4 inches or so.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/khalidafridi/Kokopellu/CIMG0088.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/khalidafridi/Moab%20Mayhem%202009/100.jpg

[A-TRAC]

The picture I posted above of the damper shows a roller fairlead tucked in the bumper.

Below is another one........so, if I had gotten an ARB bumper (which I never would........they're made for hitting kangaroos and ARB engineers still haven't figured out what approach angle is), I would have gotten a roller fairlead.

http://www.man-a-fre.com/pa/marksfj.jpg

[Mporter]

they're made for hitting kangaroos and ARB engineers still haven't figured out what approach angle is



But of course this whole thing I just played out in my mind only really works if you do the accent as your read it.

I can just see that design meeting: "Ok so we need something that will mow down a adult roo....and allow us to keep driving off." After looking at other crash tests and then finally designing theirs "That's not a bumper....now this, is a bumper"

[Medic-5150]

But of course this whole thing I just played out in my mind only really works if you do the accent as your read it.

I can just see that design meeting: "Ok so we need something that will mow down a adult roo....and allow us to keep driving off." After looking at other crash tests and then finally designing theirs "That's not a bumper....now this, is a bumper"

hahahahahaha

[Haku]

hehee......... Dangah Dangah.......Croicky.......neahly got me theya. Australian really doesn't translate well over the net does it.

That said, never ever use a Aluminum Hawse fairlead with a steel wire rope. It will eat that sucker up real fast, and it'll be into your bumper before you know it. I have only used roller fairleads with steel rope, but I imagine a Hawse style could be ideal if you need to winch at really odd angles. I've the cable get caught up in the corners of Rollers before, or get caught up on the bolts holding the rollers in place. Nothing too bad though. The rollers are nice for side pulls though, and give much less resistance.

JH

[JeffX]

.....if I had gotten an ARB bumper (which I never would........they're made for hitting kangaroos and ARB engineers still haven't figured out what approach angle is), I would have gotten a roller fairlead.....

I have a TJM (cheapest) bumper with a hawse fairlead. However, a roller won't kill me as far as approach angle is concerned.

If you want a good aproach angle, lotsa lift and big tires is the best policy. Any great approach angle achieved otherwise just gets ya high-centered on obstacles after your bumper cleared.

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/gallery/data/2/Small_-_high_centered.JPG


.

This discussion about approach angle is a valuable on, but somewhat of a hijack.

I agree with those who like steel cable, but also like synthetic for short-term use. :thunb:


.

[A-TRAC]

If you want a good aproach angle, lotsa lift and big tires is the best policy. Any great approach angle achieved otherwise just gets ya high-centered on obstacles after your bumper cleared.

This discussion about approach angle is a valuable on, but somewhat of a hijack.

Putting anything bigger than 34"s on a FJC needs re-gearing.......and anything over a 3" lift causes a whole bunch of other issues......either way........the intent was not to hi-jack the thread.......I brought approach angle up for the hawse vs roller-fairlead discussion.

And again, it might not apply to other vehicles/bumpers, but with my set up, where the winch cable comes out of the bumper at a downward angle, a roller-fairlead would definitely negatively impact my approach angle.

[BLUE THUNDER]

Putting anything bigger than 34"s on a FJC needs re-gearing.......and anything over a 3" lift causes a whole bunch of other issues......either way........the intent was not to hi-jack the thread.......I brought approach angle up for the hawse vs roller-fairlead discussion.

And again, it might not apply to other vehicles/bumpers, but with my set up, where the winch cable comes out of the bumper at a downward angle, a roller-fairlead would definitely negatively impact my approach angle.
Now you understand why I don't like the DO bumper. The downward angle.

[A-TRAC]

Now you understand why I don't like the DO bumper. The downward angle.

Well, a roller-fairlead on the majority of bumpers for the FJC would do the same thing........an All-Pro bumper would have the same effect........when you are right up against a big rock, I bet you'd hit your roller fairlead way before you're tire could touch the rock.

I guess, FJCs and roller-fairleads don't work? I don't know.

[JeffX]

[I apologize for beating a dead horse.]



....it might not apply to other vehicles/bumpers....

It does. My gearing is worse than an FJ. My approach and departure angles are, too. However, breakover angle is still the greatest challenge...

http://www.whitescarver.com/albums/ChinamansGulch/CIMG1460_1.sized.jpg

[A-TRAC]

[I apologize for beating a dead horse.]
It does. My gearing is worse than an FJ. My approach and departure angles are, too. However, breakover angle is still the greatest challenge...


As do a million other things. Wheelbase, maybe? Not sure where we are going with this.

[JeffX]

As do a million other things. Wheelbase, maybe? Not sure where we are going with this.

As do? Wheelbase? (Xterra and FJ wheelbase #s are available on Google)

EDIT: It sounds like we agree about steel cable. What I don't agree with is the assertion that a roller fairlead or an ARB bumper prevents hardcore wheeling. An Xterra has worse approach angles and there are some hardcore dudes out there with ARBs (or TJMs) and Roller fairleads.

I do agree they're for hitting Kangaroos.

http://www.agmates.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/red-kangaroo-450.jpg

[Brody]

Well, a roller-fairlead on the majority of bumpers for the FJC would do the same thing........an All-Pro bumper would have the same effect........when you are right up against a big rock, I bet you'd hit your roller fairlead way before you're tire could touch the rock.

I guess, FJCs and roller-fairleads don't work? I don't know.

Sean and I are going to be doing a custom FJ Cruiser bumper and are going to design the bumper so that it actually protects the fairlead, much as I did with the front bumper on my heap. The first thing that hits the rock with my bumper is the stinger/slider that I designed just for that purpose. Why manufacturers don't address this when they design an expensive bumper is beyond me. I did this as my axle is as far forward as I can get it with leaf springs and I needed something that would allow me to bump my front wheels up on a rock...without using my fairlead as the leading 'bump' part.

I also modified Chris' bumper on his FJ60 the same way for the same reason: the fairlead was the leading edge. Simply a lack of design foresight.

I started out with an ARB bumper on the front of my rig mainly because it came with the truck. Whereas they may be great for hitting kangaroos, I didn't like the decreased approach angle in front of the wheels, the lack of good access to the winch control, nor the fairlead stuck out in front for a rock catcher. The only part of the ARB that is left on mine is now the heavily modified winch mount (that I can now access the winch controls from without losing skin) and the top bar. I am also now able to remove my winch for servicing without having to take the whole bumper off, something that I was rather unimpressed with when I mounted my winch and did the whole reinstall myself. tI was surprised when I started carving away at this high dollar POS to see the absolute cheesiness of the construction. There are much, much better bumpers out there for the same price that you would pay for an ARB...and better designs, too.

[Mporter]

There are much, much better bumpers out there for the same price that you would pay for an ARB...and better designs, too.

Pretty much why i'm gonna be going to you guys for my bumpers/sliders :thunb:

[JeffX]

I agree they are cheesy. Mine's flimsy. It was cheap and it does the job, though.

[Brody]

It was cheap and it does the job, though.

That works!

New ARBs just cost too much for what you get. Granted, ARB makes some pretty sweet stuff, but their bumpers don't fit in this category...Cutting and modifying mine brought back memories of the old school SmittyBuilt style fakey roll bars and cheese bumpers. I kept saying stuff like "Geez...this is thin" and "Wow....this is about as cheap as you can make something"

So, that said, my ARB bumper was cheap, too and came with the truck. Here is what it looks like now:

[A-TRAC]

EDIT: It sounds like we agree about steel cable. What I don't agree with is the assertion that a roller fairlead or an ARB bumper prevents hardcore wheeling. An Xterra has worse approach angles and there are some hardcore dudes out there with ARBs (or TJMs) and Roller fairleads.

I am talking from experience when I say that roller fairleads on any mass produced bumper (besides the ARB) for the FJC or the ARB bumper for the FJC hinder your approach.

I'm not going to argue about the FJC vs the Xterra, roller-fairleads vs hawses, ARB vs whatever bumper you or I have etc etc. To each their own.

And, I'm obviously not going to go with 35"s, SAS or a 6" lift either just so I can use a roller fairlead or an ARB bumper.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/khalidafridi/Kokopellu/IMG_8828.jpg

[JeffX]

That works!

New ARBs just cost too much for what you get. Granted, ARB makes some pretty sweet stuff, but their bumpers don't fit in this category...Cutting and modifying mine brought back memories of the old school SmittyBuilt style fakey roll bars and cheese bumpers. I kept saying stuff like "Geez...this is thin" and "Wow....this is about as cheap as you can make something"

So, that said, my ARB bumper was cheap, too and came with the truck. Here is what it looks like now:


That is A-W-E-S-O-M-E-!

[JeffX]

I am talking from experience when I say that roller fairleads on any mass produced bumper (besides the ARB) for the FJC or the ARB bumper for the FJC hinder your approach.

True for Xterra and Pathy, too.




I'm not going to argue about the FJC vs the Xterra, roller-fairleads vs hawses, ARB vs whatever bumper you or I have etc etc. To each their own.

I say 'to each their own'. It seems you're saying ARB and roller fairleads are no good. I don't have either, but have seen good results with them.




And, I'm obviously not going to go with 35"s, SAS or a 6" lift either just so I can use a roller fairlead or an ARB bumper.


Neither is this guy:

http://www.whitescarver.com/albums/Wheelinabovetheclouds/DSCN0323.sized.jpg

[porkchop]

ive got a warn bumper that came on my rig ive got no complaints its beefy and strong and the winch is easy to get to and remove for servicing i havent noticed any approach angle issues but it costs around a grand

[A-TRAC]

ive got a warn bumper that came on my rig ive got no complaints its beefy and strong and the winch is easy to get to and remove for servicing i havent noticed any approach angle issues but it costs around a grand


You know what, let's start another thread about ARB bumpers, roller-fairleads vs hawses and just call it a day.

I am sure the OP's questions have been answered.

If JeffX is still bored, he can start his own thread, and if someone wants to engage, they can.

[WINKY]

i think either way you cant go wrong, just know what to expect with each.

[Mporter]

Yeah thanks guys, I got bunch of good information. Most of which I had never known, nor would find somewhere on the internet :2thumbs:

[Andrew]

I'm getting synthetic line in a few months so I will have a pretty good steel line for sale.

I need to use a hawse as that way I will have access to the receiver on the front of my rig, and a roller fairlead will block it.

I don't see the problem with synthetic on rocks - they have rock guards on it for that reason. Winchline sells their stuff with a 10' rock guard. So the line pulls through that smooth instead of the rough surface of the rock.

The melting issue - I think you would have to be doing some serious winching to have that be a concern.

[RockyMtnHigh]

Winchline sells their stuff with a 10' rock guard. So the line pulls through that smooth instead of the rough surface of the rock.


From what I have seen on the heavy duty guard they sell, the one that looks like it's braided on, it doesn't stay put on a rock. It's almost too tight, you're better off going with the standard that comes with the line already. Just a heads up.:thunb:

[Haku]

Just saw that Sky Manufacturing sells UHMW Hawse style fairleads. Cheaper, lighter, and should hold up awesome. I imagine they would work well for steel or synthetic. That stuff is pretty neat. Definitely what I am getting for mine, once I have a bumper.

http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=168

JH

[JeffX]

Just saw that Sky Manufacturing sells UHMW Hawse style fairleads. Cheaper, lighter, and should hold up awesome. I imagine they would work well for steel or synthetic. That stuff is pretty neat. Definitely what I am getting for mine, once I have a bumper.

http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=168

JH


Cheaper, lighter, stronger? Very nice. I'm gonna post this one on the Nissan board.

[Haku]

Yeah, not very often you get all three of those. The first two tend to be mutually exclusive of the first one.

JH

[scout man]

as far as roller vs hawse, I have heard that roller is really bad to use with synthetic line. The reason being that as the synthetic pulls tight, the rope stretches a little and gets thinner. When this happens it is thin enough to fall into the cracks between the rollers and it can get stuck there. Havnt ever seen it first hand, but I have heard that it is a problem.

[WINKY]

as far as roller vs hawse, I have heard that roller is really bad to use with synthetic line. The reason being that as the synthetic pulls tight, the rope stretches a little and gets thinner. When this happens it is thin enough to fall into the cracks between the rollers and it can get stuck there. Havnt ever seen it first hand, but I have heard that it is a problem.


correct sir!

[Brody]

as far as roller vs hawse, I have heard that roller is really bad to use with synthetic line. The reason being that as the synthetic pulls tight, the rope stretches a little and gets thinner. When this happens it is thin enough to fall into the cracks between the rollers and it can get stuck there. Havnt ever seen it first hand, but I have heard that it is a problem.

Yes, you don't want to use a roller fairlead with synthetic line for that reason...Thanks for pointing that out..

[JeffX]

I'm getting synthetic line in a few months so I will have a pretty good steel line for sale.

I need to use a hawse as that way I will have access to the receiver on the front of my rig, and a roller fairlead will block it.

I don't see the problem with synthetic on rocks - they have rock guards on it for that reason. Winchline sells their stuff with a 10' rock guard. So the line pulls through that smooth instead of the rough surface of the rock.

The melting issue - I think you would have to be doing some serious winching to have that be a concern.

I haven't seen your rig since you got the winch. How's the new bumper doin'?