Just chatting - IFS lift

[Smash]

I'm a bit bored, work has slowed down today. So, cruising CL as usual.

Seeing as I don't want to crawl and don't have a desire to get lockers, is there a big issue with going with IFS?

Lifting I'm assuming with be new shocks and springs or strut blocks, correct?

Is strength an issue?

Or do people just tend to go with SFA because of the ability to lock?


Smack me if I'm annoying, just wanting to learn. Feel free to ignore me!

[Patrolman]

IFS doesn't have as much wheel travel, which is why SFA or SAS is more popular. Also, oftentimes SFA is considerably stronger, particularly on large rigs. In smaller or lighter applications, the IFS serves just fine. I run IFS and have never had a problem.

Lifting IFS can be tricky. There are kits for some vehicles and not for others. Make sure you check before you buy a vehicle that there is a kit or way to lift if you want to do so. Kits consist of blocks, springs, etc. It can also be a torsion crank. Bigger lifts replace all the mounts in the front and come as a full kit.

[Smash]

I was thinking reliability and strength were the reasons to go with SFA/SAS, hadn't thought about articulation (maybe cause I had great articulation with the lifted Forester sans sway bars). Thanks!

[Andrew]

Another reason to SAS is replacement parts for a Dana axle or something similar is far easier to come by than some of our IFS parts.

Oh and you can get different gears for your diffs in a Dana sooooo much cheaper than if I wanted to get something for my Nissan axle.

[JeffX]

You can do some amazing things with independent suspension (ind). However, replacement parts are a pain because the high-end setups use custom halfshafts, knuckles and other stuff.

With a suby, you'd probably need to go fully custom for a long-travel ind lift. That could cost a fortune.

Do you have 4-lo?

[Smash]

Oh dear no, not at all considering lifting the Subi, again. I just took the 2inch strut lift off this weekend, it's up for sale on ebay.

Was just looking at how many newer decent mileage Suburbans are in my price range. Looking to see if an IFS would suit my needs or if I need to stick to the SAS. Would be nice of course to have a newer one with more luxuries. But, not necessary if the IFS is really gonna screw me!

[Andrew]

An IFS rig can do quite a lot. Mine is still IFS, and probably always will be. If I want anything more, I'll build up something a lot older and cheaper.

Also you can get some decent suspension lifts for IFS Yota trucks, but the trucks may be out of your price range for a rig.

It really depends on what you want to do. I'm not hard on my rig - I don't try to slam over obstacles with power, don't do anything too crazy, etc. But I can still do most trails. I just bypass some things here and there and don't do the really hard rock crawling ones. Again down the road someday I will have a rig that can do them, but don't plan on that rig being the Xterra.

Anyway, here's a lift kit for Yotas:

http://www.superlift.com/suspension/toyota/86-PICKUP.asp

If you can find an older one, it may fit your budget.

[Smash]

Yeah I kinda wonder if maybe an IFS could work for my application. But, I'm afraid I don't know enough. Will keep reading and googling.

[Andrew]

What do you want to do? If trails in the 5-7 rating range are fine for you, then an IFS rig with a lift and larger tires will do fine - mine does. Some spots I need some spotting and maybe a tug here and there, but it does great. If you want to do something like Holy Cross someday, then an IFS rig is probably not for you.

The important thing to realize is that things will break - to read up on the weaknesses of a particular rig and how to fix or work around them, and carry spare parts. Even with a solid axle rig, stuff will break at some point or you just aren't having enough fun lol. Like my Xterra - the stock steering is weak. So I have an upgraded centerlink and an idler arm brace and haven't had a problem.

I carry spare parts for the common failure points - tie rod assemblies, CV axles, ball joints, etc.

[Smash]

Thanks Andrew. Yes, 5-7 is all I want to do. Heck, I'm actually happy with 5-6. No Holy Cross or anything like that.

IFS or SAS I'm thinking 2-4" lift with 33s or 35s.

I'm gonna do some searching, see if I can find a suburban forum. Might be the best place to get some more info on the weak points of the newer ones.

[Brody]

Andrew and Jeff pretty much summed it up with the IFS vs SAS.

IFS is great and will do a lot, plus you have a good street ride. You can only lift an IFS so far before stuff starts getting very expensive, mainly for strength. As Andrew said, the IFS stuff breaks, mainly because there is more stuff and the axles are quite a bit smaller than straight axle. They are not hard to change out, and there are usually more IFS parts in junkyards than straight axle stuff, so spare junk is easy to acquire. People have run very hard stuff with IFS and, to me, requires that the driver think a bit more about wheel placement.

Save the straight axle stuff for when you want to run the hardest trails. You can probably run 85% of the trails in the state with an IFS rig just fine.

Most of the weak links in the IFS system have been addressed with not too expensive parts. Andrew mentioned the idler arm brace, which is also a weak part on the FJ Cruisers and IFS Yotas. You can lift and run an IFS wi, plus reinforce it, without braking the bank. You will just be limited to how high you can feasibly lift it and, like I said, drive it more carefully than a straight axle rig.

[Andrew]

My IFS rig has a 2" body lift and a 3" suspension lift (actually more about 2-2.5 as it's sagging a bit at the moment) and I run 33's on it. It does great. I can't really run 35's without a lot of trimming and regearing or putting a solid axle under it, but there are plenty of IFS rigs that you can fit 35's on - and remember that the only way to increase your clearance from your axle to the ground is with larger tires.

[Smash]

Thanks Brody, coming from you that means a ton. The street comfort is a nice bonus, as I want something we can take to different parts of the country.

Some more research into the weak points of the IFS system on the 'burb as well as how well it'll handle a 2-4" lift.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------


My IFS rig has a 2" body lift and a 3" suspension lift (actually more about 2-2.5 as it's sagging a bit at the moment) and I run 33's on it. It does great. I can't really run 35's without a lot of trimming and regearing or putting a solid axle under it, but there are plenty of IFS rigs that you can fit 35's on - and remember that the only way to increase your clearance from your axle to the ground is with larger tires.




eeeexactly. I squeezed the biggest tires I could put under the Subaru without trimming. Wasn't much of a difference, but when you're wheeling a car, ever little bit counts. :thunb:

[Andrew]

Pete you bring up a good point - IFS does often require more careful tire placement and thinking more about obstacles due to less articulation - but I didn't mention it because I am more of the finesse over obstacles type of driver and that's more of what I just do anyway.

As with any rig - the only way to learn it is to get it out there and wheel it.

[Rob]

Pete you bring up a good point - IFS does often require more careful tire placement and thinking more about obstacles due to less articulation

One reason I'm not shy about asking for a spot over tough obstacles. A good spotter can get me through a lot of stuff with my IFS Cruiser.

I haven't started carrying replacement parts yet, but one of these days...

[Smash]

I'm eager to learn more about wheel placement. I'm good at it in the Subaru, but, well, that's a CAR..... Very different from a massive Suburban, will be a completely different ball game.

[WINKY]

yeah nothing wrong with ifs, just cant beat on it like a solid axle. if you do get ifs, look at better bushings and new torsion bars as when you do the poor man lift with torsionbar only it wears the bushings and bumpstops down. it aint much to get good bushings and torsion bars pre keyed for a bit of torsion lift.

(i had a nissan 2wd with 31" superswampers, it went most places!)

[WINKY]

I'm eager to learn more about wheel placement. I'm good at it in the Subaru, but, well, that's a CAR..... Very different from a massive Suburban, will be a completely different ball game.


time on trail will get that for you. and watching others too but that takes going on runs and not being hungover.... (did i say that?) HAHAHAHAHAA:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Andrew]

I'm eager to learn more about wheel placement. I'm good at it in the Subaru, but, well, that's a CAR..... Very different from a massive Suburban, will be a completely different ball game.

With a burban you will need to keep your long wheelbase in mind as well. In some places it's great - in others, not so much.

[Rob]

I'm eager to learn more about wheel placement. I'm good at it in the Subaru, but, well, that's a CAR..... Very different from a massive Suburban, will be a completely different ball game.

And it's not just the front wheels you have to worry about placing. You have to think about where the rear wheels are going to be when they get to where your front wheels were. It's often a different spot (unless you're going dead straight, which doesn't happen often), and wheelbase will have a lot to do with how you tackle and obstacle. Every vehicle types is going to be different on the trail. The 40, on its first trip a few weeks ago, was a completely different experience from the FJC. Shorter wheelbase and solid axle.

[Andrew]

One reason I'm not shy about asking for a spot over tough obstacles. A good spotter can get me through a lot of stuff with my IFS Cruiser.

I haven't started carrying replacement parts yet, but one of these days...

Yup, nothing wrong with asking for a spot. I ask less at the start these days, but having a bunch of armor underneath is part of that. So I may try something harder and get stuck, then ask for a spot to get over it, and try to see where I should have been in the first place.

Some rigs have little things that you just don't learn about until you are on a trail - like mine the rear spring hangers get caught on things and are rather annoying - to the point that I want to cut them off and redo them someday.

Anyway - my advice is to always ask for a spot if you are uncomfortable on something (or bypass it if you want) rather than think you need to be macho or some other BS and end up hurt because you tried something beyond your skill level or that you just were not comfortable doing. We've all been there before.

[Rob]

Yup, nothing wrong with asking for a spot. I ask less at the start these days, but having a bunch of armor underneath is part of that. So I may try something harder and get stuck, then ask for a spot to get over it, and try to see where I should have been in the first place.

Some rigs have little things that you just don't learn about until you are on a trail - like mine the rear spring hangers get caught on things and are rather annoying - to the point that I want to cut them off and redo them someday.

Anyway - my advice is to always ask for a spot if you are uncomfortable on something (or bypass it if you want) rather than think you need to be macho or some other BS and end up hurt because you tried something beyond your skill level or that you just were not comfortable doing. We've all been there before.

X2 on that. Even with skids, rails, good tires and a lift, I usually know my limitations.

[Smash]

Haha, yeah no macho here. Quite humble. But, coming from humble beginnings and I'm not looking at a rig that is particularly capable in the really rough stuff. Thanks guys!

[scout man]

My DD, which I used to wheel with a bit is IFS. It is REALLY expensive to try to lift it because you are talking sub frames and all sorts of things. If you are looking at 33's or 35's, and especially if you are looking for something more manageable for a budding mechanic (I still consider myself in that range) then I think you would be a ton happier with solid axles. There is a lot less to go wrong, and it is a lot easier to figure out problems and how to fix them with a solid axle. Also keep in mind that you will want to grow whatever you have in the future. Example, for a while your Suby was all you needed and it served every purpose you wanted, now you are looking to go up to 33s or 35s in a much larger rig and run 5-6 rated trails. I would bet in a few years you will be thinking about how you have done all those trails and would like to experience more and step up a level. You will then be looking to solid axle swap and it will take some down time and $$ to get back on the trail and be happy. On the other side, if you buy something already like that, you can still continue to build but you dont have that limiting factor you would otherwise. And you may even be able to find the initial vehicle cheaper, depending on what you are looking at. I know that I bought my scout because my truck was just getting too much abuse out on the trails. Not even looking to make it into a crawler, but just as a family vehicle to run around in the mountains, you never know when you will turn on to the wrong trail, or find the trail rating wasnt realistic (way too common), and find yourself rubbing places and putting strain on spots you dont really intend to push that hard. Example, I was running Ute Creek in my truck while my scout was down, made a wrong turn and ended up in a rock garden that smashed up my rear shock and rubbed some stuff pretty bad. Thats the sort of reason I bought my scout. I can build it to whatever degree I would like, with really no limiting factor. There is no way I could flex like the picture below with IFS in the front. No rig, even with the same size tires and a really pricy IFS overhaul could flex that high, and it didnt really take me that much effort or money. Do I ever flex that extreme on a trail? Not really, but I could if I ever needed too, and I will in the future.
IFS will ride a lot nicer and wont vibrate you to pieces, but just keep in mind you will always want to go bigger, and to places you couldnt go before. Just like people told me when I was buying tires... of you are thinking you want 33's get 35's because as soon as you have the 33s you will want to trade up. As soon as you get a bigger rig, and start wheeling, you will quickly want to go from IFS to SAS, so it makes more sense to start there.

I know Andrew will dissagree with me a lot on this, and he has a very nice rig that is very capable, but he said himself, if he ever goes more extreme it will be with a completely different vehicle. If you are starting off with the intention of an off road vehicle, you might as well start with something that doesnt have that stopping point. And Andrew is right, it probably would make a lot more sense to start a new vehicle for him then to SAS the xtera.

Thats my :2c:.

[scout man]

looks like about 8 new posts beat me to the punch and I dissagreed with all of them! All I know is having gone where I am now, I dont even think about taking my truck on the trail, just too much added stress to me and the vehicle. Sure you will be happy with anything you get though! You will be surprised I think how much you already know about wheel placement, seeing as wheeling that suby may have been harder than the burban, just very different. Just remenber your like 50 times bigger in a burban!

[Andrew]

haha well my intention with the Xterra is that it is a rig that I can drive around town without too much issue, and I can do most trails, and go camping where most can't get to. Never was intended to do more, so I'm happy with 33's and IFS with it. But it's too nice to roll it so if I do more difficult things, I'll get an older truck and cage it and if it flops - no big deal.

I do disagree about the expense to some degree.

Sub frame? What was your IFS rig? The Xterra has a regular old ladder frame. I don't think I would recommend a unibody personally for offroading at this level.

The body lift was cheap, and new shackles were cheap. The most expensive part was the suspension lift, but I got it used - so it depends on what kind of deal you can get. I think I got the full suspension lift, body lift, wheels and tires, rock sliders and full skid plates for under $2000.

I realize that some people will want to do a SAS, but I just haven't yet. Now I would like to get an air locker put in, and some crawler gears and a few other things done, but I just don't have the desire to do a swap with the X.

It all just dpends on what you want to do in the long run - think about it and figure it out before you buy. I knew that eventually I would have an older more built up rig at some point that I could beat on and not care too much about and still have the Xterra to go camping in should the other rig be busted because I camp a lot and wouldn't want a busted rig to get in the way of that. It may now, as I just have the one, but anyway that's my thinking on it.

[scout man]

I have a 97 f-150, and back when I was looking to lift it all that was available was lifts with subframes under them to lower if IFS parts. Been a long time since I looked, but there may be something new now out there. And yes, it was going to be a little over $2000 to lift it, but by my standards that is very pricy. I barely have that much into my scout, including the original purchase price. I am unemployed and didnt make all that much money back when I was, so for me it is all about biggest bang for the buck. I didnt care immensely of my scouts driveability on the road, since its a second vehicle, and I dont mind having to manhandle it. If I can handle an 80,000 lbs load rolling through the mountains on snow, I can handle my scout wandering a bit and being bouncy, but its all about personal preference. I would certainly not complain about owning your xtera, I like it, it is just in the no where near future for me to have a vehicle that I can afford, and that can go where I want it to, that has even a hint of luxery to it (AC, adjustable seats, etc). I also admit I get more intense than some people while on a trail and have learned to adjust to accomodate that. I am naturally a person who likes to push limits, and although not necessarily stupid, I like to push my rig as far as it can go, therefor I make sure it can go places and be pushed without being dangerous.

[Chris]

Regardless of which you end up with you'd be smart to learn the trucks ability & yours before doing any mods. Nothing worse in my view than someone buying a truck, building it and not knowing how to drive it. As Rob mentioned, different rigs, different techniques and neither IFS or SA will resemble your car.

[Andrew]

Regardless of which you end up with you'd be smart to learn the trucks ability & yours before doing any mods. Nothing worse in my view than someone buying a truck, building it and not knowing how to drive it. As Rob mentioned, different rigs, different techniques and neither IFS or SA will resemble your car.

There is something worse - the guy who buys a truck, has it built for him and has no tools or knowledge of how to fix it should something break.

I'm no expert mechanic, and have had plenty of help with what I have done, but made sure that I learned enough from those who helped in order to be able to fix things on it myself.

And nobody can call me unprepared after lookin at all the crap I carry haha.

[Patrolman]

If it is basically a trail only rig, I would get a late 60's Burban with the solid axle, 350 and 4 speed. Build it how you want it. ;) I just like to lean towards old-skool stuff.

[Smash]

In the long run, this will be an expedition rig. Expedition in that I want to be able to camp in it comfortably with all my gear and dogs while traveling around the country. Level 6 trails according to trail damage from what I understand is really the max I want to do with this rig. Karla and I love ATVs, I imagine any "rock crawling" will be done on 4x4 ATVs sometime in the future, or maybe a beater wrangler.

All in all, the suburban must handle decently on the road (read - not necessarily fast!) as I want to go to moab atleast. I don't want to hate to drive it on the road and therefore not go anywhere. It's got to be able to handle a lot of gear and dogs. It's got to be able to tow someday (ATVs/dirt bikes). I want it to handle the trails I could do with the Subaru (when it comes to clearance, I know it'll be wider and longer) but must be able to handle mountain trails (Subaru couldn't, too steep, ie mt antero).

Is any of this making sense? lol.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------


If it is basically a trail only rig, I would get a late 60's Burban with the solid axle, 350 and 4 speed. Build it how you want it. ;) I just like to lean towards old-skool stuff.


haha, no this will absolutely NOT be a trail only rig.

[WINKY]

get something........LMAO:lol:

[Smash]

I know i know.

That's why I said just chatting and if people are annoyed with me just ignore me or pm me and I'll get this thread deleted.

[WINKY]

I know i know.

That's why I said just chatting and if people are annoyed with me just ignore me or pm me and I'll get this thread deleted.


just pokin fun at ya bro, i know your being patient and it will pay off. heck i waited for brutus and when i finally found him i jumped on it like flies on crap!

[Smash]

Haha yeah. One of the problems of not having any extra money after bills are paid is that you have a lot of time to think about possibilities. Cruising expo, found quite a few IFS lifted Suburbans doing exactly the duty I want them to do. Which got me thinking, usually newer means a bit nicer, less wear and tear, and believe me with a few trips under your belt things like working AC and a quieter interior definitely make sense. So, an IFS 'burb entered the picture.

I haven't been able to find a good forum for info about lifting the IFS burb and what it's weak points are. It might be my first post on expo, asking that question. But, I don't want to tick people off over there, most of them seem much better off than I am and I'm worried my inability to buy RIGHT NOW will frustrate them. You guys have been very patient.

Is there maybe a 4x4 shop I could go talk to about the IFS?

[WINKY]

ifs isnt all bad as many talk about but then again when you hear people badmouthing IFS its cause they are hardcore rock crawlers. You will do fine with an ifs, just use a gentle gas pedal.

expedition portal isnt like pirate, you wont get flamed. ask away man!

[scout man]

usually newer means a bit nicer, less wear and tear, and believe me with a few trips under your belt things like working AC and a quieter interior definitely make sense.

haha, yea, if you want comfort dont go old. My rig is about as oposite of that as you can get. Its loud, it leaks all over, you get wet if it rains even with the top on and windows up, there is no AC (although there was originally and could be again) and it wanders a lot. I do notice after spending a lot of time in the scout I get in my truck and think "dang! This is NICE!" If thats what your looking to do a more modern burban will probably make you very happy. A buddy of mine has a 90 something Tahoe that he wheels, and he is very happy with it. It is stock right now, but would accomodate everything you want, and with a little improvements (tires) you would be very pleased I think, as it is plenty of room for people, stuff, and sleeping, but not as big and bulky as a burban. Also better gas milage I am sure. Seeing as you could probably fit your subaru in the back of a suburban, you may want to drive one, and a tahoe and see which size actually makes you happier. Just a thought.

[Smash]

Hehe, yeah thanks scout. I've never owned an old truck, so the lack of comfort is slightly unnerving because I want to do some big trips. It seems like IFS could work just fine for me, which opens up the door to check out the size of a 4 door Tahoe.

[Chris]

Comfort is a relative thing, I find mine extremely comfortable and can drive it all day and night. Two hours in Barb's Accord and my back goes in to spasms. If you let the comfort of the driver's seat influence you it would be a mistake. Swapping seats is easy and cheap.

[Rob]

In the long run, this will be an expedition rig. Expedition in that I want to be able to camp in it comfortably with all my gear and dogs while traveling around the country. Level 6 trails according to trail damage from what I understand is really the max I want to do with this rig. Karla and I love ATVs, I imagine any "rock crawling" will be done on 4x4 ATVs sometime in the future, or maybe a beater wrangler.

All in all, the suburban must handle decently on the road (read - not necessarily fast!) as I want to go to moab atleast.

haha, no this will absolutely NOT be a trail only rig.

I've done many level 6 trails (or rated difficult in Wells' books) in the FJC, which is IFS and haven't had any problems. And it's a great daily driver.

If your main goal is an expedition rig, don't be deterred by IFS. You'll still be able to run most trails in Colorado and elsewhere. And you'll be comfortable getting there.

If, at some point, you get the rock-crawling bug, buy a dedicated single-axle rig.


Comfort is a relative thing, I find mine extremely comfortable and can drive it all day and night. Two hours in Barb's Accord and my back goes in to spasms. If you let the comfort of the driver's seat influence you it would be a mistake. Swapping seats is easy and cheap.

Can I have one of your seats? Please? :)

[Chris]

I'll swap you my passenger seat for your FJC passenger seat. Then barb could pretend we had an FJC!

[JeffX]

OK, maybe I finally understand this thread. Buy a Pathfinder! (http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1420343010.html)....

[colomil]

IFS= go fast, SAS= Rock crawl.
Having said that, I manage to off road my IFS 92 K3500 with no lift and 35" tires with good results. I had to do some trimming to get the tires to fit well but it looks pretty good and there is no rubbing. I will be stuffing 37" tires on it this week with an obscene amount of fender trimming. The front articulation sucks but I think this will work well for things like snow bashing & firewood runs.

I will be putting a D60 under the front of my IFS K2500 burb sometime soon. It will be a little bit of work but it will cost less than an IFS lift and be much stronger.

[Haku]

First off, IFS can be good or bad on and off road, as can solid axles stuff. Solid Axle does not instantly equate to bad handling and rough ride onroad. Its all relative, and you can make anything behave well in any environment. When people talk about Solid Axle rigs not handling well, its almost always a rig that was designed to be a hardcore offroader. This means they decided that they would sacrifice highway and daily driving to be able to cope with offroading better. This doesn't mean it has to be that way. My dad had a IFS Suburban, and it handled just like a big truck is expected to. Its never going to be a sports car.

For a big truck, I think solid axles and leaf springs are much better, stronger, and simpler to work on then anything IFS. Lots less to break, and if you go GM, parts are super easy to find. Like people have said before, its inherantly stronger too, mostly because of the diff housing.

I've also thought about this, and at this point, the only time I'd want an Independent suspension setup is if I did alot of high speed desert running. Then again, there is nothing cheap about the long travel suspension stuff, and its a lot harder to do good "home brew" fabrication for it then it is for Solid Axle stuff. This leads me to believe that for what you want to do, a Solid Axle would provide more potential for Colorado offroading, unless you really wanted to do be able to do the Baja 1000 as well. The main factor you are going to have to worry about is beefyness, with a rig the size of the Suburban. So yeah, don't just assume that a Solid Axled vehicle will instantly be worse for daily use.

JH

oh, and JeffX, we've aleady tried to talk him into something other then a Full Size GM vehicle, but he seems dead set on something huge:p. Seems to think that since he can't fit everything in the Forester, he needs a rig twice the size. Then again, Karla called my Toyota a "tiny truck", so I guess that says something:D. Sure doesn't look or feel tiny to me, and certainly isn't the easiest to get into either. Then again, I came from a Samurai, so the probabaly skews what I call "tiny"....

my head was level with the rocker panel when I stood next to it here.....BTW
http://hnvaca.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pWAdlK902cJHiHCmsk7VuR6vwkD3y9p6WzVIlZ8qQGdMGLOx f2P0-PUIfbP8Hn9XyW1fYmrrAYZtgMHIQzNtzKw/26.jpg

-jh

[Rob]

I'll swap you my passenger seat for your FJC passenger seat. Then barb could pretend we had an FJC!

That might work. Marty's happier in the back seat anyway. :thunb:

[Smash]

Thanks guys, doesn't seem to be a real agreement here on if I should run the IFS, but seems like I could.

[Haku]

I know what I meant, and what I figure others are saying, is go with the best deal you can find for what your needs are. Sounds like both IFS and Solid Axle applications will work for you, so don't count either of them out. My point was only that Solid Axle does not instantly mean bad handling, nor does IFS instantly mean it will handle well. In general, the IFS will do better on roads and long distance, but won't have as much potential offroad, and the lifts and such are nearly always more expensive and more complicated (for the big lift kits at least, doing small 2-3 inch lifts seems reasonably easy with IFS, by adjusting a torsion bar, using coil spacers, etc). Should you definitely go IFS, not necessarily. Will it work for your stated goals, for sure. Will you regret getting something with IFS in future, possibly, if you want to go for the harder trails or a big lift. Big tires and such don't get along with the IFS stuff as well, and the aftermarket support for stronger components isn't as readily available, nor as cheap.

JH

[JeffX]

Thanks guys, doesn't seem to be a real agreement here on if I should run the IFS, but seems like I could.

It's very simple. Identify your price range. Identify the year/make/model of vehicles that are in it. Buy the best vehicle. There are lotsa people out there doing hard-core wheeling with IFS. I recently heard about an FJC (-w- IFS lift) on 35's running carnage BV. I haven't, however, confirmed this.

I know for a fact that IFS have run:

Holy Cross
Blanca
Chinaman's
Eagle Rock
Spring Creek
Hells Revenge
Moab Rim

[Haku]

It's very simple. Identify your price range. Identify the year/make/model of vehicles that are in it. Buy the best vehicle. There are lotsa people out there doing hard-core wheeling with IFS. I recently heard about an FJC (-w- IFS lift) on 35's running carnage BV. I haven't, however, confirmed this.

I know for a fact that IFS have run:

Holy Cross
Blanca
Chinaman's
Eagle Rock
Spring Creek
Hells Revenge
Moab Rim

If a FJC, SASed or IFS, ran Carnage BV, then I hope he had an exo cage. If not, they almost certainly came out with a lot of body damage. The V-notch obstacle nearly guarantees it for any rig other then buggies. You pretty much hug a cliff wall the whole way up, and even if you manage to get a few feet off of it, it tends to push you that way anyways. Its the main reason I haven't wanted to get in there with my rig yet.

I have also seen IFS/STock rigs on almost all of those trails you listed, plus others. You could likely get by with IFS in harder stuff too, but can't say I'd want to. Then again, if he hadn't been dis-qualified, Shannon Cambell probably would have won King of Hammers last year in this IFS rig.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPM3qfC6sg0

That thing would whip some serious ass on any rig on here, so its certainly doable, with the right amount of money.:lol:

JH

JH

[Andrew]

He was DQ'd? Why?

[Haku]

He was DQ'd? Why?

Blew up his tranny and had to return to "camp" to replace it, which automatically disqualifies you. He went back out and finished the course anyways, and caused some controversy when he did this.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x82Fz7gljeA&feature=related

He pretty much drove over another dudes rig that was still in the race (while the guy was still in the rig too) after he was already disqualified and out of the race, and did about $10k worth of damage to the guys rig. Then 4 other rigs followed him through. So yeah, not the best decisions one could have made.

JH

p.s. Someone less poor should buy this DVD so I can watch it....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tW2tHpkmn0

-jh

[JeffX]

I don't understand the controversy. It's a competition. Unless they were willing to stop the clock, he did what he had to do.

EDIT: What happens when a NASCAR driver causes $100K in damage to a competitor's vehicle?

[Andrew]

Yeah if someone just stopped in the middle for no reason....?

Okay if he ran the PERSON over that's different. But yeah if he was already DQ'd....I dunno. If I was running it and was DQ'd I'd probably run the rest of it too just because I wanted to finish what I started - even if I couldn't win.

[Brody]

It's very simple. Identify your price range. Identify the year/make/model of vehicles that are in it. Buy the best vehicle. There are lotsa people out there doing hard-core wheeling with IFS. I recently heard about an FJC (-w- IFS lift) on 35's running carnage BV. I haven't, however, confirmed this.

I know for a fact that IFS have run:

Holy Cross
Blanca
Chinaman's
Eagle Rock
Spring Creek
Hells Revenge
Moab Rim


Add to this list:

Iron Chest
Rubicon
Hammers in Johnson's Valley
Area BFE

Yeah, you do do pretty much anything in an IFS rig. The key being really good driver skills and having the weak parts reinforced, though not necessarily replaced.

[Smash]

Thanks guys. Chewing this around. :)

[Funrover]

Thanks guys. Chewing this around. :)

Always causing trouble! :lol::lol:

[Andrew]

Also remember that if you need more room to store stuff - you can always pull a little trailer. Then you wouldn't have such a huge rig on the trail. I'd never be happy with a burban or fullsize rig on the trails, but that's just me. Get what ya want :)

[Smash]

Someone's gotta keep everyone on their toes around here! :lol:

[Haku]

I don't understand the controversy. It's a competition. Unless they were willing to stop the clock, he did what he had to do.

EDIT: What happens when a NASCAR driver causes $100K in damage to a competitor's vehicle?

I would agree with you on that, if he had been a legit racer. However, the guy who drove over the other dudes rig was Disqualified at the time, and the guy who he ran over was still in the race. As far as I know, you are able to winch yourself back onto your wheels and still continue the race. Not even taking price into account, the fact he ended someone else's race was what caused the controversy in my mind.

JH

[JeffX]

I would agree with you on that, if he had been a legit racer. However, the guy who drove over the other dudes rig was Disqualified at the time, and the guy who he ran over was still in the race. As far as I know, you are able to winch yourself back onto your wheels and still continue the race. Not even taking price into account, the fact he ended someone else's race was what caused the controversy in my mind.

JH

I thought he was DQed after the fact....

[Smash]

Also remember that if you need more room to store stuff - you can always pull a little trailer. Then you wouldn't have such a huge rig on the trail. I'd never be happy with a burban or fullsize rig on the trails, but that's just me. Get what ya want :)


Like this? From expo.....


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3762917690_0f327db589_b.jpg

[gm4x4lover]

Its not hard to wheel a burb. it goes every where the little cherokee does. I dont think the problem is with ifs as much as it is with gm's ifs. If you are good at replacing front end parts ie: idler arm, idler bracket, pitman arm, ball joints, hub bearing assembles, brakes, rotors, and dealing with the stupid design flaws on gm's ifs rigs then you are fine. you could expect some of those parts to replaced every 25-30k and most twice in a 100k. I know the 3/4 ton ifs trucks brakes dont usually last more than 25k and they destroy the rotors every time. Plus the rotors suck to change on those. The idler and pitman arms go bad about every 50-60k and they are not a walk in the park for the average joe. And any time you think about lifting one it is very expensive. Typically it is cheaper to just sas one than it is to address half of those concerns. Plus you increase the reliability of it 10 fold. So if you are looking to do a budget expo rig then i would stay with the solid axle burbs. If you have and extra grand or two to put into it instead of lifting it then look at the ifs.

[Smash]

Lord, that unreliable??

[SubaCool]

I dont think the problem is with ifs as much as it is with gm's ifs. If you are good at replacing front end parts ie: idler arm, idler bracket, pitman arm, ball joints, hub bearing assembles, brakes, rotors, and dealing with the stupid design flaws on gm's ifs rigs then you are fine.
And if not, you will become a "pro" very fast :D I remember the first "front end" job I did on a GM Van took me forever (something like a day or two?). The fifth one only took about two hrs (both sides) :rolleyes: A friend of mine works on a fleet of FedEx vans, I've helped him out a bit earlier this year.

[Smash]

Damn, I didn't realize they were that bad.

[Brody]

Yeah, you can pick these trailers up for around $250 by looking a little bit. The key to using them off road is to use a 'pintle' style military hitch. This allows the trailer to deal with more extreme angles like when you are crossing a ditch or gulley. A regular ball style hitch won't let you do this.


Like this? From expo.....


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3762917690_0f327db589_b.jpg

[Smash]

Thanks Brody!

[Brody]

Thanks Brody!

You are welcome. My thoughts would be to get an older style Jimmy or Chevy 'Blazer' with a solid front, then look around for a pickup bed trailer that someone is selling cheap. Change the ball hitch to a pintle style, maybe throw on a camper shell and you have the best of both: a trail rig that will do pretty much anything you want it to with plenty of room for weekend trips, plus a trailer for longer ones.

As Nick pointed out (and something I didn't know...HAHA...I was reminded of the late Ken's post about me being a 'know it all':D) the GMs obviously have some issues with their IFS..

[Smash]

Yeah, I'm thinking in that direction too. Expanded search to include Blazers/Jimmys.

[Brody]

Yeah, I'm thinking in that direction too. Expanded search to include Blazers/Jimmys.

Nick or another GM guy can probably clarify this, but my understanding is that the Blazer and the Jimmy of the same style have the same under carriage and motor. I do know that you can find the same year Jimmys for a lot cheaper than the Blazers because they don't hold the resale value as well.

Other than that, I don't know what the real differences are.

[Smash]

According to wiki there does seem to be any meaningful difference between the two. I am looking at Bronco's too, but only if one HECK of a deal comes along.

All this thinking is not good for me. Lol.

[Brody]

Broncos would be good, too, but stay away from any that have the TTB (Twin Traction Beam) front end as these present even more issues than the IFS as far as lifting and performance. Both the TTB (see Camberg Racing: http://www.camburg.com/about.html) and the IFS (Total Chaos: http://www.chaosfab.com/) have after market support to make them about as strong and functional as you could ever want...but at a serious price.

Here is a link explaining the Ford TTB, what years and models it was under, and the good and bad:

http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Spring2003/TTBTuning.htm

[Smash]

Brilliant. Thanks! I'm not a big Ford person and understand the issues that make the Bronco the less desirably choice for my application, but, if a great deal comes along I don't want to miss it.

[Funrover]

Like this? From expo.....


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3762917690_0f327db589_b.jpg



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Where did you get this picture? I know that guy. The "trailer" used to be his off road rig. He has done alot that you don't see. :D:thunb:

[gm4x4lover]

Blazers and Jimmys are all the same as burbs. They usually have a higher resale value though. Burbs are less coveted than their k5 counter part. I have had a few broncos and f150's and havent liket them nearly as much. All though they are more refined and updated they seem to be more problem matic and more expensive to fix. Also the interchange between ford model years is alot less expansive than the gm's.

[Haku]

That might be the answer to my camping/wheeling conundrum. I want a full on wheeling rig, but at the same time don't want a full pickup bed. Might see about getting a pickup frame, taking my bed and camper shell, and putting it on and making a trailer setup with it. I was thinking about this the other day too, and realized it might be really neat to get the leftovers of an SAS job, and make it independently suspended. Put a really soft coil in there so it flexes really good. Either that, or put a full rear solid axle setup in there for spare parts. We shall see I guess. Part of me really wants it to be flatbed/tube rear, and the other part wants all that space for carrying stuff. For now, the later is winning out, especially for winter.

Oh, and Smash, time to man up and get a rig buddy, and it sounds like it should be solid axled for ya:thunb:.

JH

[Smash]

Yep solid axle, although this IFS discussion was really illuminating! I'm learning bit by bit. I still have just a grand to spend though. Working diligently to increase that amount, although it seems to raise by the penny.... not even by the dollar.

PS - make the trailer, I want to see how it's done!!!

[Funrover]

That might be the answer to my camping/wheeling conundrum. I want a full on wheeling rig, but at the same time don't want a full pickup bed. Might see about getting a pickup frame, taking my bed and camper shell, and putting it on and making a trailer setup with it. I was thinking about this the other day too, and realized it might be really neat to get the leftovers of an SAS job, and make it independently suspended. Put a really soft coil in there so it flexes really good. Either that, or put a full rear solid axle setup in there for spare parts. We shall see I guess. Part of me really wants it to be flatbed/tube rear, and the other part wants all that space for carrying stuff. For now, the later is winning out, especially for winter.

Oh, and Smash, time to man up and get a rig buddy, and it sounds like it should be solid axled for ya:thunb:.

JH

There are a few trailer/camper companies that have done the indep. suspension. They are awsome and the clearence is amazing.

[Smash]

There are a few trailer/camper companies that have done the indep. suspension. They are awsome and the clearence is amazing.


really? haha that might be cool to see! On my budget it'll probably be an old pickup bed, lifted, with big tires and a topper. But hey, works for me!

[Smash]

:lol:

check out the paint scheme.

http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/1437314862.html

[Smash]

That might be the answer to my camping/wheeling conundrum. I want a full on wheeling rig, but at the same time don't want a full pickup bed. Might see about getting a pickup frame, taking my bed and camper shell, and putting it on and making a trailer setup with it. I was thinking about this the other day too, and realized it might be really neat to get the leftovers of an SAS job, and make it independently suspended. Put a really soft coil in there so it flexes really good. Either that, or put a full rear solid axle setup in there for spare parts. We shall see I guess. Part of me really wants it to be flatbed/tube rear, and the other part wants all that space for carrying stuff. For now, the later is winning out, especially for winter.

Oh, and Smash, time to man up and get a rig buddy, and it sounds like it should be solid axled for ya:thunb:.

JH


Here ya go!!

http://denver.craigslist.org/for/1428798536.html

[Haku]

This is kind of what I'm thinking, but with a pickup topper on it......
http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176812&d=1191114450

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=178334&d=1191640784

Would be very useful, and would free me up to flat bed my rig. I'd certainly see about setting it up with independent suspension though too. Wouldn't be horrible to setup up a double wishbone suspension or something along those lines. I have some Subaru coils that would work perfect for it too. Might also be cool to have a full "trail spare" axle under your trailer, though a front axle would be more useful (but much more complicated, though not impossible).

JH

[Funrover]

Why not keep the COG down and use an RTT for sleep?

[Haku]

I'd rather have the trailer have bad COG then my rig. It would defeat the whole purpose of my rig to have a "wildernest" style topper really. The whole idea is to have the rig be armored for going out on trails, and have this be for back at camp and basic expo stuff. Still capable of doing some offroad/rock crawling stuff though too. I'd go with a tent camper trailer thing before I'd go with the Roof Top Tent (assuming thats what you meant).

JH

[Funrover]

I was assuming this would go everywhere you went, sounds more like a base camp

[Haku]

I've heard too many horror stories of people trying to pull a trailer offroad to want to do it myself personally. As it stands, I'd like to have my rig be able to do 7+ rated trails reliably by the end of the winter, but still be able to drive to Moab or Penrose and be self sustained, but in style:cool:. For now, its working well to sleep in the back of my rig, but I've nearly messed up the topper on multiple occasions already, and that was doing moderate trails. My current plan is to make a drawer system for all my tools, so I can have a flat spot for a matress in the truck without having to empty the whole bed every time like I do now. Its really nice to have that water proof and windproof place to go to when the weather gets crappy, and it would be even better if it was always available without having to mess with stuff. Good times, and it would seem I have completely highjacked this thread again.

JH

[gm4x4lover]

sounds like you need to get a pick up frame and take you bed and topper off and put them on the trailer. Then you could flat bed it and still have a "base camp" set up. I have seen it done this way with chevy's and when they use a matching bed to the truck it really turns out sweet. I have thought about it with the burb.

[Haku]

Hehee.......I already said that was the idea I had on the previous page. Definitely something to pursue further me thinks. I would have to get a different topper though, or modify this one, since the one i have now has a rubber gasket style fit instead of its own window. Might be a fun project for this winter.

JH

[Smash]

Are you guys sure an IFS rig is really terrible? Doing redcone on the stocker run was awesome, Karla and I both agree that that is as tough as we want to do. I ask cause i've seen a bunch of lifted IFS GM fullsizes on Expo. From as little as 2" to 6". I just found this and I LOVE IT. That has more than enough ground clearance as well. 2" coil spacers:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk196/JohnTahoe/TahoeSabre060508a.jpg

[Smash]

This guy has gone HUGE with his 2500. 6" plus massive tires. Way more than anything we'd consider.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2484/3875793029_bb78e2f369.jpg

[Smash]

Haha, I just showed the green Tahoe to Karla. She wants me to go buy it. Right now. :lol:

[SubaCool]

Are you guys sure an IFS rig is really terrible? Doing redcone on the stocker run was awesome, Karla and I both agree that that is as tough as we want to do. I ask cause i've seen a bunch of lifted IFS GM fullsizes on Expo. From as little as 2" to 6". I just found this and I LOVE IT. That has more than enough ground clearance as well. 2" coil spacers:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk196/JohnTahoe/TahoeSabre060508a.jpg
Look, Dash all grown up!!! :lol:

[transplant87]

im running IFS with a 3 inch body lift wit 33s and i dont have ant trouble on the trails, and if u ask me i like IFS. :cool::thunb:

[Smash]

Kubo - HA! Its even the right color.

PS - just showed Karla the picture of that Tahoe again, she said "oh look at the pretty dog." Ha, she didn't notice the dog the FIRST time I showed her.

[Haku]

Are you guys sure an IFS rig is really terrible? Doing redcone on the stocker run was awesome, Karla and I both agree that that is as tough as we want to do. I ask cause i've seen a bunch of lifted IFS GM fullsizes on Expo. From as little as 2" to 6". I just found this and I LOVE IT. That has more than enough ground clearance as well. 2" coil spacers:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk196/JohnTahoe/TahoeSabre060508a.jpg

No one said IFS was crap, they just said that its stronger and simpler to go with a solid axled vehicle, especially for the more extreme lifts.

Thats a great rig, but I suspect its out of your price range at the moment. If you just want to get 2-4" lift on it, then your right, not too hard. More then that, significantly harder. Then again, for something equal to or easier then Red Cone, you don't really need more then that. I'd say if you found an IFS Suburban or Tahoe (personally I'd go for the 4 door Tahoe over the Subub, just for sake of size) for the right price, then grab it. With some basic mods and armor, you'll be able to do quite a bit.

JH

[Smash]

Yeah a nice IFS bumps me more into the 3-5k range. But, its something I want to keep for a long time. I could sell the Forester, but its worth more to me than anyone else so I don't think that's the right move. I'm also thinking a 4 door Tahoe would be a nice match, but I've never checked one out up close. Patience is key. Sigh.

[Haku]

The 4 door Tahoe is just like the Subub, but with 18 or so inches shorter. The cargo space behind the main seats and/or lack of third row seating is the main difference. Should be more then enough for you needs, especially with the rear seats folded forward, without have that extra overhang and longer wheelbase. Otherwise, they are pretty much the same rig, comparing the same year Suburban to the same year Tahoe. I bet you could find a used and only slightly abused one for less then 3k. I've seen largely whole ones at the Junkyards (no body damage), and I wouldn't imagine they would want to pay too much for them just to throw them out on the "upull" lot.

JH

[Smash]

Thanks Haku, there's hope! Lol, just glad y'all haven't booted me out already. ;)

Right, more saving to do. Karla and I will make the runs we can, when there are extra seats, with cameras (and shovels) ready!

[transplant87]

Thanks Haku, there's hope! Lol, just glad y'all haven't booted me out already. ;)

Right, more saving to do. Karla and I will make the runs we can, when there are extra seats, with cameras (and shovels) ready!
your more then welcom to ride with me on the next run i can make i have a whole small back seat the can be filled.

and p.s. if u want help when u get ur truck feel free to give me a call

[colomil]

If you are going to get a full size GM with IFS, I would strongly recommend the 3/4 ton 8-lug. The half ton crap will break on you. I owned a 6-lug 1/2 ton GM IFS and the drivetrain was about as tough as a subaru Justy (weak 4l60 tranny, very weak 10 bolt rear axle, weaker IFS parts). I currently own three 3/4 ton GM ifs trucks and I have yet to replace any broken front end parts. I run 33-35" tires on my IFS trucks with no lift. I have even towed 12k lbs with my 97 k2500 burb. These trucks do eat brakes at a fast pace as well as idlers. Plan on a brake job every year and an idler every other. The big plus is that the highway ride & handling is way better than the solid axle trucks.

One of the popular off road magazines did an article to see how much abuse the front end on a GM IFS could take. After putting on 37" tires & front locker, they attempting a front "dig". At this point, crap really started to break. I think a dana 44 front axle would have twisted an axle under these conditions as well. If your off roading is anywhere near this gnarly, then a solid axle is a better choice.

[Smash]

Not at my computer, so not as easy to do a search. Did the Tahoe come in a 3/4 ton or just the burbs?

Thanks greenmachine!

[Haku]

Thanks Haku, there's hope! Lol, just glad y'all haven't booted me out already. ;)

Right, more saving to do. Karla and I will make the runs we can, when there are extra seats, with cameras (and shovels) ready!

You should come on the OCG trip then. Its a great trail with some big obstacles. Not sure if Nay is bringing the family, but if not, he'll have lots of room in his rig, and he likes to take all the hard lines.:thunb: I have room for 1 in my rig, which doesn't do you much good unless you want to split up. Oh, and I'll take pics over getting dug out any day.

[Haku]

Not at my computer, so not as easy to do a search. Did the Tahoe come in a 3/4 ton or just the burbs?

Thanks greenmachine!

They came in a 2500, which I believe is the way the designated a 3/4 ton right? Hehee, I'm such and import guy that I don't know the silly details that I probably should about these Domestic beasts, even though a Tahoe and Suburban were among the first vehicles I drove extensively.

JH

[WINKY]

your stressing way too much about ifs.

Flip a coin and decide to stick with one, or be happy with either :) you wont go wrong with either noting the level of wheeling your going to do.

[Smash]

Yep, 2500. I'll have to look harder, hadn't seen one yet.

Winky - I'm really bad at leaving things to chance!!

[WINKY]

ok, just saying that they wouldnt put ifs on something if they knew it wouldnt hold up the the rigors of offroading :) but you will find something that will make ya happy! and when ya do we get to wheel!

[Brody]

ok, just saying that they wouldnt put ifs on something if they knew it wouldnt hold up the the rigors of offroading :) but you will find something that will make ya happy! and when ya do we get to wheel!

I disagree with this. The trend of manufacturers to go with IFS was more for the on road ride with 4 wheel drive than having anything to do with actual off road capabilities. It was a compromise, at best. Ask anyone who wheels an IFS rig hard, and you will be surprised at how much breaks.

There are simply too many moving parts, many of which aren't designed for hard wheeling. The axles are at least 1/2 the size of anything found in a straight axle, the CV joints are spindly, etc. Where an IFS rig can wheel, and wheel pretty hard, you have to modify your driving style a lot to compensate for the inherent weakness of the components in the IFS system.

Many after market suppliers who deal with IFS set ups install much heavier and stronger axles. Two set ups come to mind, one of which uses very expensive Porsche axles and another that uses the much heavier duty and longer Toyota T 100 axles. In addition to this, you are limited in wheel travel simply because of the fixed differential design of the IFS. There is only going to be so much you can do to get extra wheel travel and this is addressed to some degree by lengthening the A arms, again an after market and expensive item.

By the time you have modified your IFS to get more strength and more travel, you have spent enough money to do about two separate SAS swaps and still don't have either the strength or travel of a straight axle rig. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the high strength IFS modifications make your front axle about 7" wider than your rear axle..not the best set up.

The manufacturers put comfort in front of performance when they designed the IFS 4x4s. Nothing more. Off road capabilities took a back seat when they did this. They responded to the public demand for a 4x4 that works in the snow and bad road conditions that doesn't ride like a truck....and did a good job, too, but that doesn't mean they made capable off road rigs designed for hard off road use, either.

With very few exceptions, there are no manufacturers today, foreign or domestic, that make an 'off the factory floor' vehicle that is designed for the 'rigors of wheeling', and those that do offer these, offer them on special order for high dollar. The heavy duty went of of style back in the 70s as the popular demand wasn't enough to justify the additional expense of putting heavy duty axles, transfer cases, etc into a vehicle. This is one of the main reasons that so many of the beefier set ups use axles, T cases, and trannies from rigs made in the 70s and that these parts are getting so hard to find in the junkyards.

[WINKY]

i stand corrected.:thunb:

[gm4x4lover]

Did the Tahoe come in a 3/4 ton or just the burbs?


No tahoe never came in 3/4 ton but it did come 1/2 ton diesel and even in 2 door size.


your stressing way too much about ifs.

Flip a coin and decide to stick with one, or be happy with either :) you wont go wrong with either noting the level of wheeling your going to do.

I strongly dissagree with this statement. Their is also no way to "beef" up the components either.


ok, just saying that they wouldnt put ifs on something if they knew it wouldnt hold up the the rigors of offroading :) but you will find something that will make ya happy! and when ya do we get to wheel!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxrdwXXat14

same exact parts that are in the "stronger" 3/4 burbs. GM ifs is known for weak tie-rod ends in vehicles that are used off road. For daily driving the tie-rod ends hold up fine but ever other part fails. It is cheaper to do a sas than it is to just maintain the ifs front end let alone lift it. The only benefit ifs offers is ride quality. Which doesnt go hand in hand for 4 wheeling.

[Andrew]

My driving style is already on par with how you should drive an IFS rig anyway.

I have yet to break anything (knock on wood). HOWEVER - before I started doing anything more serious, I had already fixed and strengthened all of the weaker points.

The only thing is the lower control arms will eventually give out as they just are not strong enough - there are a few dents, etc. on them. I want to custom design some heavy duty ones but that is easier said than done.

Wear items will wear faster though - ball joints and various bushings and such.

[Haku]

hehee........so Smash..........I guess we ARE saying that IFS is terrible then:p. Here is the way I look at it. Not only are the Solid Axle versions of a vehicle the size you want stronger and easier to work on, but they are all older, so they are more in your price range. For a dude who is just now getting into cars and fixing them, having something that brakes less often seems like a good thing to me. There is definitely a learning curve, which I found out since I started doing car stuff seriously about 5 years ago. I'm super jealous of the guys who's dad was into wrenching and working on cars growing up, since it seems to be bred into them and they tend to "just get it".

So honestly, Keep Scout II/Travelall, Ford Bronco's, Chevy K5 or Suburban, or the Ram Charger in mind......if you ask me. Yeah, they aren't as plush as the newer version sometimes, but will be plenty strong, handle well enough for your needs onroad, and have a ton more capability and potential offroad. You say you will stick to moderate trails, but I can already tell you are catching the bug, and I imagine that might change later on. All the rigs listed above are in the "full size" class, and I have personally seen all of them (minus the Charger) do really well offroad with basic mods.

I'll put in a final plea for you to consider a Land Cruiser too. For what you want, an FJ62 seems perfect. Solid Axles, EFI, plenty of room, but a more manageable size. Heck, even the FJ80 is getting to be in your long term price range ($5k or so).

JH

[Smash]

.sigh.

lol!

[Smash]

I think the only way we'll be in a SAS K5 or similar is if we find a steal of a deal. It's not our ideal, and while a trailer would make it easier it's not quite what we have in mind. Seeing as the K5 and such are more sought after, I don't think that's gonna happen.

[gm4x4lover]

I am also talking on a gm ifs stand point. I have had friends with toyota and nissan wheelers and the ifs on the Japanese imports is far superior to that of the gm system. Gms fords and dodges are the weakest set up on the market. We have been thinking about upgrading kims vehicle up she really wants a suburban or tahoe but alot newer and so i have been hard pressed to pull the trigger because of the maint issues on the ifs.

[Brody]

I think the only way we'll be in a SAS K5 or similar is if we find a steal of a deal. It's not our ideal, and while a trailer would make it easier it's not quite what we have in mind. Seeing as the K5 and such are more sought after, I don't think that's gonna happen.


That is why both Nick and I mentioned the Jimmys. All the same basic good stuff, but without either the collector's appeal or the price.

The foreign car IFS is only a little stronger, BTW, and with all of the design weaknesses in all the same spots. It all starts with the small axles and many moving parts..

Also keep in mind what Josh mentioned...once the 'bug' hits, you are always upgrading to some degree and it would be better to spend the $$ now for something that is really more rig than you think. This would avoid dropping big bucks a year from now into a straight axle swap or some other high dollar mod.

You should also look for someones half finished project rig where they have done a bunch of work and just lost interest. Many times you can find lockers, axle upgrades, etc, etc on a rig like this and pay no more than you would for something else with no mods. GMs, Fords, Dodges, as well as Toyotas and Jeeps are all over the place like this.

[Smash]

Brody - I think you have made a critical point. Others who are more skilled with repair would be a better candidate for IFS. I, however, have no idea what i'm doing and am learning. Therefore, especially because Karla and I travel a lot alone, it is a good idea to go with the most reliable setup possible.

[Andrew]

One thing is bothering me here.....if you buy a vehicle that has a solid front axle, it's not a SAS! lol

[Smash]

:lol: DOH!

[WINKY]

guess i was wrong, must not have known about so many IFS fronts ends going teets up..... stick with solid front then :)

[gm4x4lover]

When i was searching for the hummer vid i couldnt believe how many duramaxs fall to the same fate while tractor pulling.

[WINKY]

never knew that :erm: