bull dozing of China Wall [Archive] - Front Range 4x4 Forums

Haku

November 3rd, 2009, 05:18 PM

This is going to be my last post or login with this club.
For the kind people that asked for this update before the thread was so rudely deleted.
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=157956

Goodbye..... thanks for the post I guess.

Definitely sucks about them doing that. Was there anything that prompted this, or was it just another "intelligent" move from the Forest Service again? I hearby vote to change the location of the Anniversary Trip this year if all this is true.

JH

JeepersCreepers

November 3rd, 2009, 05:34 PM

Did someone from FR4X4 cause this to happen???? Cause this is news to me that china wall go leveled.

Sucks either way. That was a fun trail to do that was not super far from the Springs

Chris

November 3rd, 2009, 05:45 PM

JeepersCreepers

November 3rd, 2009, 05:54 PM

Nobody from FR4X4 caused this to happen, not sure where you could even come up with that as a question! This is the first I heard of it too. The same as Slaughterhouse and apparently a lot of Jenny Creek & Yankee Hill are next. I can understand the FS getting fed up with the problems that were obvious on Slaughterhouse, keeping Jenny Creek clean and keeping private land owners around Yankee Hill happy but China Wall baffles me. It always seemed pretty well respected, not trashed or torn up. As a matter-of-fact it hardly seemed used.

:confused:

I only asked if someone from FR4X4 caused this because of Gecko saying that this was his last post on this site. Figured he was mad at someone on this site for doing or not doing something to do with China Wall. With his comment like that I figured that someone here had something to do with China Wall being leveled. I, myself figured that nobody from FR4X4 did anything to make such a crappy thing happen.

WINKY

November 3rd, 2009, 05:56 PM

well i dont have to worry bout that one rock hitting my running boards anymore.....:(

---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 PM ----------

one thing i can say is that the forest service needs to keep the trails fairly passable with their vehicles as those trails are there for firefighting and such. it somewhat makes sense. they may have a system of determining what trails need some maintenance for easability of their vehicles to get through... just a thought

Patrolman

November 3rd, 2009, 06:16 PM

Yeah... I am baffled. I never ran China Wall so it looks like I can take it off my list for now. I didn't see any reason to not be part of the club. Very confusing...

porkchop

November 3rd, 2009, 06:28 PM

hmmmmm..... the china wall thing sucks i never got to run that trail myself. sorry to hear kb has lost intrest or what ever he was the guy who told me about this club one day at t-33a/ironclads. i dont think id ever get upset enough to not want to be a member anymore.

bmx_ican92

November 3rd, 2009, 06:29 PM

Darn...

BlackRubi

November 3rd, 2009, 06:42 PM

Geez. What the french, toast?

Chris

November 3rd, 2009, 07:25 PM

I only asked if someone from FR4X4 caused this because of Gecko saying that this was his last post on this site.

His comment and departure related to another thread that he felt was rudely deleted. In that thread he mentioned China Wall being leveled and he was answering those of us that asked for details.

Haku

November 3rd, 2009, 07:36 PM

His comment and departure related to another thread that he felt was rudely deleted. In that thread he mentioned China Wall being leveled and he was answering those of us that asked for details.

KB getting pissed off on a forum.......never seen that before:rolleyes:.

JH

porkchop

November 3rd, 2009, 07:41 PM

maybe my computer was failing but moments ago it said he was online:confused:

Chris

November 3rd, 2009, 07:43 PM

Let sleeping dogs lie, KB has left the forum.

ShutUpHippie

November 3rd, 2009, 08:51 PM

R.I.P. China Wall. *taps*

Patrolman

November 3rd, 2009, 08:54 PM

Let sleeping dogs lie, KB has left the forum.

Agreed... Lets leave it at that.

Pathrat

November 3rd, 2009, 09:53 PM

So we are opening up these trails for access by greater numbers of people thus inviting more trash and trouble. That is one argument by those who want public lands usage limited that actually has some validity. The more people you have in an area, the more likely you are to get that proportional number of wingnuts who screw it up for everyone else. Seems to me that leveling the road is not alleviating anything.
What was the reason given for grading Slaughterhouse?

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 12:44 AM

They did this with Hidden Valley Road too, bull dozed it.

I think they are doing this hoping we will lose interest in running these trails.

Rob

November 4th, 2009, 12:45 AM

They did this with Hidden Valley Road too, bull dozed it.

I think they are doing this hoping we will lose interest in running these trails.

Someone needs to stop selling bulldozers and graders to the Forest Service.

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 12:50 AM

Someone needs to stop selling bulldozers and graders to the Forest Service.

Yeah no kidding, I guess their arguement is, "hey the trails are open aren't they, you guys didn't specify the condition you wanted the trails in."

I read it some where, may have been here or on another forum, but they bulldozed Winding Stairs too.

Rob

November 4th, 2009, 12:52 AM

Yeah, I'm crossing trails off my to-do list right and left. Hope there are some left to do next season.

KnuckleHead

November 4th, 2009, 12:57 AM

4Runninfun

November 4th, 2009, 01:02 AM

Yeah no kidding, I guess their arguement is, "hey the trails are open aren't they, you guys didn't specify the condition you wanted the trails in."

I read it some where, may have been here or on another forum, but they bulldozed Winding Stairs too.

last i heard they closed winding stairs.

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 01:08 AM

Well at least they didn't close the trail all together. I myself have never run any of these trails but still wouldn't mind going to get out and see the out doors of or state. Like said before now they are just more for the stockers...

I guess it's cool that they didn't close it, but in my opinion they are attacking it like the gun control nut jobs are, leaving the guns alone and going after ammo sales. In this case they are leaving the trails there, just leveling them off, hoping we'll lose interest. The reality of it will be, now it's accessible by more and more of the weekend warriors will be up there on the holidays making a huge mess.

There's two sides to going out on trail runs for me, seeing if I can actually get over that obstacle and the wow factor of the scenery at the top. One without the other just isn't the same, there's plenty to do for the stockers and modified rigs without having to tread into one or the other by leveling them off.

last i heard they closed winding stairs.

Ahh, that may have been what I read!

Brody

November 4th, 2009, 04:40 AM

The same attitude and responses about the FS leveling China Wall are all over Colorado 4x4. Doesn't the FS pay any attention to what people are thinking? Or maybe just too many people with $$ want to take there Caddie and Lincoln SUVs want to 'wheel' without the bumps....

Answer my own question:

FS=government=we don't care. we don't have to.

Another impressive move by the FS...I can see the reasoning behind Jenny Creek...barely. I sure can't see the reasoning behind Slaughterhouse, ChinaWall, Dakan Mountain, etc, etc...The emergency access excuse is absolute bull**** Emergency access to what? And for what? There is nothing out there they need 'emergency' access to to begin with...they could get in there before...

Since when did "Save The Trail" get translated into "Pave The Trail"? One of the things that we have to face is that 4Wheelers are a very small, not very well organized group of people who use the out doors. However vocal we can be, we don't represent either a large part of the outdoor community, nor do we represent a large financial resource to the government. In other words, we are kind of at the low end of the food chain when it comes down to what we want as far as 'trails go.

All I would like is to get some sort of logical explanation (granted, a lot to ask for from any government body) as to why our tax dollars are being spent for such lameass stuff like this.

Here is a link for more FS information:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/projects/

Good luck wading through the government propaganda...

And as much as I need a job right now, if the FS were to offer me one, I would piss in their shoes.... Saving the trails are one thing, picking up trash and cleaning up fire pits and camping areas fit right in with saving them, too, but this **** is pretty goddamn stupid and a real waste of tax money...

Funrover

November 4th, 2009, 07:19 AM

What crap, WTF? Why would you doze CW? Was there not enough places for the motorhomes to park out there? I know there are mils of road out that way where you can camp, dirt bike, etc... But seriously WTF?

Andrew

November 4th, 2009, 08:16 AM

Funrover

November 4th, 2009, 09:16 AM

It was such a great trail. Had options to play but you were still able to enjkoy stock. It was my all time favorite "Welcome' "Break in" trail amongst other reasons

Brody

November 4th, 2009, 09:39 AM

What crap, WTF? Why would you doze CW?

Wade through the FS propaganda BS on the link I posted and you will find crap like "for the public good", "to provide better access" and a bunch of other mealy mouth **** to convince the general public that they actually NEED to GRADE the TRAILS for THE PUBLIC. So, yes, rest assured, mr and mrs all American non wheeler, never go to the mountains, couch potatoes, the $20,000,000.00 of your tax money allocated to the FS for this and other FS 'road improvement' projects, is all for the 'public good and is 'really necessary'...

If you believe that happy horse****, PM me as I have some sea front property in Arizona I'll let you have for a great price...

Funrover

November 4th, 2009, 09:57 AM

I can't find anything on their site as to WHY they did this... Really pisses me off....:mad: It's moves like this that make is hard for me to help. There was no reason to do this! Oh well, hopefully mother nature will help up get the trail back!

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 09:58 AM

One of the things that we have to face is that 4Wheelers are a very small, not very well organized group of people who use the out doors. However vocal we can be, we don't represent either a large part of the outdoor community, nor do we represent a large financial resource to the government. In other words, we are kind of at the low end of the food chain when it comes down to what we want as far as 'trails go.

This is the exact reason year after year we have to fight to keep trails open, but when they close, it takes an act of god to get them re-opened and even then it's sometimes not possible. The off-roading community in general is too wrapped up in who's vehicle is better, who wheels harder and so fourth to be an organized voice on all this, we divide ourselves and that's what they use against us. It's one of the great things about this forum, everyone drops that crap at the door, but we are a minority.

It doesn't help with the dip$hits out there who lack trail etiquette and make the rest of look like a bunch of a-holes out to tear chit up, but being able to put past all the BS would be a good start.

As I said on another forum. Let's all go down there, leave the tires inflated and put chains on and dig some holes, and winch some rocks into the trail and make it a trail again. Damned forest circus clowns.

While I understand where you're coming from, this would only give the FS and tree huggers a reason to shut it down completely.

JeffX

November 4th, 2009, 10:07 AM

last i heard they closed winding stairs.

They bull-dozed the Winding stairs - ice cave loop and closed the gnarley lower half of winding stairs. It's now a car loop. There's still a 4wd spur road with nice views.

Massey (http://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Adventures-Colorado-Peter-Massey/dp/1930193068) shows the route that's currently open.

Andrew

November 4th, 2009, 10:08 AM

While I understand where you're coming from, this would only give the FS and tree huggers a reason to shut it down completely.

I was not actually being serious.

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 10:23 AM

I was not actually being serious.

Sorry dude, I couldn't tell!

I guess we can look at this way, with it dozed it'll make a cool spot to do some snow bashing on. :thunb:

Andrew

November 4th, 2009, 10:29 AM

I don't personally think that a leveled dirt road is worth it for me to drive THAT far for. If I'm going to go that far then I might as well run Red Cone or something.

Haku

November 4th, 2009, 10:34 AM

Sorry dude, I couldn't tell!

I guess we can look at this way, with it dozed it'll make a cool spot to do some snow bashing on. :thunb:

I would agree with you about that, except for the fact that there are much better trails that are closer to where most of us live. In my opinion, this trail is no longer worth the 3ish hour drive it takes to get there from Denver, when runs like Yankee Hill and Bunce School are closer. The whole reason this trail was great, was it had enough room to for 30 rigs, you can get a stock rig through it (heard someone got a Honda Civic through it, including the squeeze part, with some dragging) but it had some fun obstacles for the bigger rigs to enjoy too. Never understood why they would do this to a trail that is so far away from anything, and is almost exclusively used for offroading travel.

JH

Funrover

November 4th, 2009, 10:40 AM

Sorry dude, I couldn't tell!

I guess we can look at this way, with it dozed it'll make a cool spot to do some snow bashing on. :thunb:

Not too much snow sadly. There is a little every now and then.

Andrew

November 4th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Yeah China Wall area was usually one of those spots that you could count on being passable damn near anytime of the year and with not too much snow. Just where it sits doesn't get much.

RockyMtnHigh

November 4th, 2009, 11:51 AM

Sorry I was being optimistic, what's done is done!

Okay back to being a pessimistic smartass! :thunb:

JeffX

November 4th, 2009, 12:36 PM

Yeah China Wall area was usually one of those spots that you could count on being passable damn near anytime of the year and with not too much snow. Just where it sits doesn't get much.

Maybe we can do Chinaman's this winter. It doesn't get much.

Andrew

November 4th, 2009, 12:41 PM

Didn't it change a lot? Did any IFS rigs go through it?

Funrover

November 4th, 2009, 01:18 PM

Maybe we can do Chinaman's this winter. It doesn't get much.

Yeah that is always a great one, Tried a winter run there back in Feb and got snowed out..LOL... I am up for trying again this winter!

Speedwagon

November 4th, 2009, 07:47 PM

I guess i have a ton of trails to do in the BRAT before they get high ratings again! Go me, I'll have done all the "hard" trails in the BRAT for a "wow" factor! :lol:

A few posts from CO4x4:

Just spoke with the South Park Ranger District and they informed me that it was a scheduled maintenance decision. They are required to keep roads at a certain level. 204B is no longer a part of the designated road system that just came out so it is closed for good. Just for grins I asked if they could leave that road alone in the future. Of course the answer was no. They were very friendly and if anybody else has questions here's their # 719-836-2031

they dozed it out before about 12 years ago or so, I grew up wheeling those roads and still don't live to far from them. It sucks a fat 1, but this isn't the first time that has happened out their. I guess I'll have to go back out with my high lift and bring the boulders back into the trail!!!!!

JeepersCreepers

November 4th, 2009, 08:57 PM

As I said on another forum. Let's all go down there, leave the tires inflated and put chains on and dig some holes, and winch some rocks into the trail and make it a trail again. Damned forest circus clowns.

I'm with you on this one! And like Aaron said, there are miles of trails that people can still get too without having to ruin a fun, true off road trail.

Jamie

January 25th, 2010, 08:14 PM

I'm with you on this one! And like Aaron said, there are miles of trails that people can still get too without having to ruin a fun, true off road trail.

Andrew!, this only pisses off the Forest Service and makes them shut stuff down. The ice, snow and spring run off will put the rocks where they belong on it's own.
I would love to do exactly as you say but I know this only leads to trail closures. Remember that these are county roads and by such designation they are maintained by the county which frowns on making them impassable by the general population.

Chinawall is also our trail run of choice for all newbies and anniversary runs since it has many bypasses and optional lines making it a great place to learn.

I do believe this was your first run Josh, so I would assume that you would want it to be available to the next "new guy".

Understand that I am far from the guy to tell "you what to do" but please don't screw it up for the future generation. I've still got 6 years before Jesse gets to cut his teeth on this great little beginner trail.

By the end of summer it will be back the way it was.