What winchline to get?

[Andrew]

I am going to get a synthetic line to replace the steel line in my winch. I have a 9.5xp which came with 100' of 5/16. I'm curious if I should stick with 5/16 or go with 3/8 - and if I go with 3/8 I'm curious if the 80' length would fit. How can I tell?

Also, I know there was a thread here about some cheaper hawse fairleads. I need to get one. I don't see paying Viking $90 for one. I will search but a link would be nice :)

[WINKY]

stay 5/16, the synthetic is stronger than steel and you would be wasting drum space by going bigger on synthetic, no need....

[Andrew]

Well I was thinking that if I used a snatch block and doubled up - does that just give you better pulling power because you are hooking it back to your rig - it's not actually increasing the amount of force on the line?

[Haku]

The 5/16" rope is rated at 13,600 pounds Working Load, which should be fine for your use. The 3/8" stuff is 20,000 pound Working load, and its probably overkill. I like to go double the weight of the winch capacity for safeties sake, but with the relative light weight of the Xterra going double the weight of the rig should be more then sufficient. Having a longer winch line would be more useful then an overkill weight rating. Not sure of how much of each winch line will fit in that winch, so I'll let someone else say on that one.

As for a Hawse Fairlead, there a many many aluminum ones out there in the $50-70 range, but the one I plan on buying for my setup is the UHMW that Sky Manufacturing makes. UHMW is a highly wear and abrasion resistant, self lubricating high density plastic that can be machined. Light weight, low clearance, and its only $25 bucks. Here is the link.... http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=168 .

JH

[Andrew]

Thanks Josh that's the one I was looking for.

Also - the only other thing I have heard that concerns me is some people saying that the synthetic can be overheated by the drum and actually melt?

[Haku]

From what I gather, its highly dependent on how long you plan on winching for. If its just to pull yourself out on occasion, then the drum will never get that hot. If you plan on pulling a whole group of people out or doing some really long pulls up a big hill often, then it might be something to worry about. I know a couple of the synthetic winch line companies make a rope that has a heat resistant sheath on it for the first 10 or so feet that goes on the drum. Not exactly sure what they do to it, but you might be able to accomplish the same thing with 1" tubular webbing, found at climbing stores for about 25 cents a foot. They even make it in Spectra, which is a Kevlar variant for something like 50 cents a foot. I've seen people worry about it, but I have yet to see even anecdotal evidence that the winch gets hot enough to do this. Seems to me, just be smart about it, and keep an eye on it and if it starts to get warm maybe take a break to let it cool. Also, what makes the drum hot, is the cycling on the brake under load, so try to minimize that as much as possible (i.e. try to do steady pulls without turning the winch on and off a lot).

[Andrew]

A sheath of some sort may be worth the extra just for peace of mind. I don't plan on doing crazy pulls, but sometimes it's necessary to do a longer pull.

Slowly coming together. I need a new battery and better alternator and then some quick disconnects for battery cable, some cable....hoping to get this all installed around March. Have a Moab trip in May.

[Haku]

Well I was thinking that if I used a snatch block and doubled up - does that just give you better pulling power because you are hooking it back to your rig - it's not actually increasing the amount of force on the line?

Its a bit of a mind screw, but I was taught in rigging classes that since you have two legs of rope, you have double the weight capacity holding strength of a single line. So while there is added pulling strength due to mechanical advantage, there is also double the strength.

One thing I forgot to mention is, good luck ever getting the winch to get anywhere near its actual load capacity. At those load rates, you'll start ripping bumpers and bolts off before the winch line will start to fail. Not sure what the safety factor on these lines is, but I bet its at least 2 to 1 (i.e. its rated for 13k, but is actually able to hold 26k) safety factor. Its like most "rated and stamped" D-ring shackles. They actually have a 5 to 1 rating, so while a 5/8 shackle says it can hold a 1 ton of weight, its actually designed to hold 5 tons of weight. Pretty neat stuff.

[Andrew]

Its a bit of a mind screw, but I was taught in rigging classes that since you have two legs of rope, you have double the weight capacity holding strength of a single line. So while there is added pulling strength due to mechanical advantage, there is also double the strength.

One thing I forgot to mention is, good luck ever getting the winch to get anywhere near its actual load capacity. At those load rates, you'll start ripping bumpers and bolts off before the winch line will start to fail. Not sure what the safety factor on these lines is, but I bet its at least 2 to 1 (i.e. its rated for 13k, but is actually able to hold 26k) safety factor. Its like most "rated and stamped" D-ring shackles. They actually have a 5 to 1 rating, so while a 5/8 shackle says it can hold a 1 ton of weight, its actually designed to hold 5 tons of weight. Pretty neat stuff.

Oh....well duh I wasn't thinking. Simple load distribution.

Anyway yeah I know they rate them very conservatively.

100' of 5/16 then.

[Clyde]

I am going to get a synthetic line to replace the steel line in my winch. I have a 9.5xp which came with 100' of 5/16. I'm curious if I should stick with 5/16 or go with 3/8 - and if I go with 3/8 I'm curious if the 80' length would fit. How can I tell?

Also, I know there was a thread here about some cheaper hawse fairleads. I need to get one. I don't see paying Viking $90 for one. I will search but a link would be nice :)
I will never understand the winch rope thing. I spent 25 years in the towing and recovery industry, and I can gaurantee, you will never find rope on any tow truck, theres a reason for that, it isnt as good as cable. I personally would never use it on anything I was winching, I flat do not trust it. I guess on a comp rig it might be ok, but for any sort of real recovery work, no.

Yeah Its just my opinion, but in the line of work I was in, I have more experience with winches and recovery than pretty much anyone you will ever meet.

[Rob]

Yeah Its just my opinion, but in the line of work I was in, I have more experience with winches and recovery than pretty much anyone you will ever meet.

Quick question, Clyde. Can you repair a serious kink in a winch cable or is it best to just go ahead and replace the cable?

Sorry to jack the thread, but you gotta grab the expert when you can. :thunb:

[Clyde]

Quick question, Clyde. Can you repair a serious kink in a winch cable or is it best to just go ahead and replace the cable?

Sorry to jack the thread, but you gotta grab the expert when you can. :thunb:Replace it, or if its close to the end, have a new end swedged on. Yeah you can straighten it some, but better to replace.

[Rob]

Replace it, or if its close to the end, have a new end swedged on. Yeah you can straighten it some, but better to replace.

It's more toward the middle, so I'll replace it. I have a fresh line from RockyMtnHigh hanging in the garage. Thanks, Clyde. I appreciate the advice.

[Clyde]

Not a problem. :)

[Haku]

I will never understand the winch rope thing. I spent 25 years in the towing and recovery industry, and I can gaurantee, you will never find rope on any tow truck, theres a reason for that, it isnt as good as cable. I personally would never use it on anything I was winching, I flat do not trust it. I guess on a comp rig it might be ok, but for any sort of real recovery work, no.

Yeah Its just my opinion, but in the line of work I was in, I have more experience with winches and recovery than pretty much anyone you will ever meet.

I acknowledge your experience with this, but have you ever actually put synthetic line to the test? Considering that its first and primary use is as Mooring line for ships, I think Synthetic Winch Rope can handle itself quite well. They both have their pro's and con's, but I'm under the belief that the only real reason more people don't use it is because of the added price. I can understand how you trust something you've used extensively more then something new. I'd say that the only real downside to synthetic other then price is the fact that its more liable to get cut up when dragged over something. Nearly every other characteristic of it is superior to steel wire rope. Heck, the weight savings alone is worth it to me, with lower stretch and added safety being a plus. Won't kink, if it breaks you can tie a knot in it and keep using it (albeit much weaker then an intact one) and doesn't burr up like steel rope. The only reason I haven't bought it for my winch yet (other then the fact its not mounted) is that haven't felt like spending the money yet.

In some ways its much like anything, the tried and true takes top trumps over something new and untried. The fact that most of the winch companies are starting to jump on the band wagon with this is indication enough for me.

JH

[JeffX]

I will never understand the winch rope thing. I spent 25 years in the towing and recovery industry, and I can gaurantee, you will never find rope on any tow truck....

X2. I understand the rope for a comp rig, but prefer cable for mine. The extra weight is a small price to pay for the long-term benefits. I've used my winch 5 times this year and I the cable is still in good shape. The ropes seem to dry-rot and tear easily. If you must buy rope, get 3/8", IMO.

My gnarliest recovery ever was when I drove a 6x6 Deuce(&1/2) into mud that froze. I camped until the next morning when my unit supply guy came by. The extraction required a 15000 winch with a snatch block. It seemed like the line would snap, but it didn't.

[Andrew]

I will never understand the winch rope thing. I spent 25 years in the towing and recovery industry, and I can gaurantee, you will never find rope on any tow truck, theres a reason for that, it isnt as good as cable. I personally would never use it on anything I was winching, I flat do not trust it. I guess on a comp rig it might be ok, but for any sort of real recovery work, no.

Yeah Its just my opinion, but in the line of work I was in, I have more experience with winches and recovery than pretty much anyone you will ever meet.

Can you offer any reason other than "I haven't used it so I don't trust it"?

From what I have read about it, the reason I want the synthetic line is for safety reasons mainly. It breaks - it falls to the ground unlike steel cable which can come whipping at you and do serious damage to you or your rig. Yeah a shackle or something could come flying, etc. Bottom line is respect the power being used, and be smart about it - but things can happen that are unexpected. Yeah you should maintain the steel cable and probably a lot of accidents are of people overloading a line or using a damaged line or using it improperly. But the synth just seems safer to me and I would rather spend the extra money for safety any day.

So if you could offer up some reasons why you don't see synth line on tow rigs, please do. To me, from a business standpoint it would make more sense to use steel cable as it costs far less. So that's one reason why you would see steel cable over rope. I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'd like to know them and have some data on it, rather than go off of any opinion.

[WINKY]

for me once my steel cable gets to the point or needing replaced i am going to get 3/8 synthetic as i can put a heap load of line on the winch. i am limited to 80 usable feet of 7/16" rope. until then i will get a synthetic extension and run it through a snatchblock.

as far as the rope dry rotting, if it gets wet, dry it out. or baking in the sun- put a cover on the winch... there will always be maintenance for winch lines no matter what material is used. For mine i unspool it all the way and rewind it nicely when done for the day. If it gets real nasty dirty i unspool it at the car wash and hose it down. for lube i hose it down with wd40.

[Brody]

I will never understand the winch rope thing. I spent 25 years in the towing and recovery industry, and I can gaurantee, you will never find rope on any tow truck, theres a reason for that, it isnt as good as cable. I personally would never use it on anything I was winching, I flat do not trust it. I guess on a comp rig it might be ok, but for any sort of real recovery work, no.

X3. And again, this is simply my opinion. I have used steel cable on winches for 40 years. It has always worked. I have never had a cable, no matter the condition, break. I have also rock climbed for the same amount of time, using 'synthetic' ropes. Due to the amount of care you have to take with climbing ropes watching for exposure to heat, dirt, acids, yada, yada, yada, in order to keep them in good shape, for this reason alone I will stick with steel cable. It simply works...and is certainly cheaper.

That said, I use pieces of very old and retired from technical climbing-not just lead climbing, but retired/retired..not for hauling, not for fixing, not for top roping...ropes for snatch and tow straps. I have only had one of these break. I was doing an 80 acre fencing job in Florrisant about 25 or more years ago and we were pulling stumps with whatever 4x I had at the time and using a rather mangled piece of old climbing rope to pull them. I finally broke it, at the knot (the weakest point), on my fourth try at this one stump. I had been backing up to the stump and flat hammering the rig to rock the stump out.

Synthetic rope is obviously strong. It is light. It is expensive. It is easy to fix breaks in the field. Would I buy some? No, I like my steel cable that I have used for 40 years.(Oh..not the same cable BTW. I hardly remember how many rigs and different winches I have had...) Would I try some synthetic line is someone gave me some? Maybe, but would probably give it to someone who was dying for synthetic line.

And, also speaking from experience, just because you get a kink in your cable, it doesn't mean that you have to run out and replace it. Anyone who has actually used their winches with steel line has a kink of some kind in their cable. It is just the nature of the beast. Real world conditions are never perfect.

Bottom line, if I had a dedicated crawler that was light weight and I was trying to keep it light, I would probably go for the synthetic. As it is, my rig isn't light and whenever I use my winch, I am usually trying to pull out a heavy rig that is stuck or my own heavy rig that is stuck. Add to that the fact that when people switch over to synthetic line, they usually sell their old, perfectly good steel line for cheap, you can now replace your old steel line for a song. I'll stick to steel line....

Here are a couple of links discussing the various pros and cons:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2311745/synthetic_winch_line_vs_steel_cable.html

http://www.offroaders.com/directory/products/Amsteel-Blue-Synthetic-Winch-Line.htm

http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-1.htm

http://www.4x4wire.com/4x4-projects/why-switch-from-steel-cable-to-synthetic-winchlines-safety-strength-ease-of-handling

http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm

Andrew: The Rock Stomper link has a very nice chart showing how much and what size line fits on various winches. Also, SpiderTrax in town offers Hawse style fairleads, but I don't know the price.

Also, for something unique in the hawse style fairleads, check this out:

http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/rockdancer/

Warn sells a synthetic non aluminum fairlead for $33 or so which is the direction I would go for a hawse style fairlead, avoiding the aluminum.

[Roostercruiser]

ive never used a synthetic lne , i was a dipatcher for a local towing company 12 yrs ago and all the trucks were steel cables. ive never seen at tow truck with synthetic line.

[Andrew]

My main concern is with safety, but as I said earlier, most of that is not being an idiot while doing a recovery. But still, if the line were to break, I'd rather it be synthetic. I do have a friend who uses synth and I will ask him what he thinks.

I also have to have a hawse fairlead if I want to use my front receiver mount for a recovery point as the rollers get in the way.

[Fordguy77]

My friend Arron is in the professional 4x4 comp business. And he swears by the synthetic, his main reason is for the safety, hes had both cable and syn line snap, when the cable snapped it broke his brothers leg, and did some serious damage. With the synthetic snapping the worst was a light bruise across his shin. So if safety is your main concern i'd definitely go with the synthetic line.

[Mporter]

My friend Arron is in the professional 4x4 comp business. And he swears by the synthetic, his main reason is for the safety, hes had both cable and syn line snap, when the cable snapped it broke his brothers leg, and did some serious damage. With the synthetic snapping the worst was a light bruise across his shin. So if safety is your main concern i'd definitely go with the synthetic line.

Question: If hes in the comp business....why was he/others standing that close to the winchline in the first place? I dont have a winch, but id never stand close regardless...

[Fordguy77]

His brother was actually 15 feet off to the side of the rig just watching the recovery. and The time he got hit he was off to the side near the front of the vehicle spotting trying to see what the vehicle was hung up on. Everyone makes stupid mistakes once in a while. The way i look at it, is i work with industrial machines that can grind someone up in a matter of a few seconds. And i work around people who have done it for years, and every once in a while you hear about someone who has been doing my line of work for 15-20 years who got to comfortable with what they were working on and losing a finger tip or getting hurt because they were overly comfortable with there task.

[WINKY]

yep no matter what sh!t will can and does happen. whether its your own fault or just bad luck.

I see this discussion so much, conventional or synthetic... half are on one side of fence, half on the other... Just get what you want and know that you made a good choice either way.

Cant go wrong with either steel or synthetic. neither are resistant to failure, it will happen sooner or later. both have their pros and cons. i am going synthetic for weight savings, more length on the spool, and safety when i can afford it. I will have the 90' of steel as an extension or whatever or keep as spare.

[JeffX]

Question: If hes in the comp business....why was he/others standing that close to the winchline in the first place? I dont have a winch, but id never stand close regardless...


Sometimes you have no choice.

[Andrew]

I went with the synthetic. I got a good tree saver too and will get one of those UHMW hawse fairleads. I think it is worth the price even if I have to replace the line ever 3 years or whatever, just for the safety aspect in case a line snaps. Last thing I would want is a steel line snapping and coming back at me or my friends out on a trail.

[Haku]

Probably worth getting a winch cover, just to keep the sun and road gunk off it. Probably something all winches should have regardless of whether they use synthetic or steel.

JH

[Andrew]

I've looked for one but I can't find one for the 9.5xp...one may work but it depends on where my control pack ends up.

[JeffX]

I went with the synthetic. I got a good tree saver too and will get one of those UHMW hawse fairleads. I think it is worth the price even if I have to replace the line ever 3 years or whatever, just for the safety aspect in case a line snaps. Last thing I would want is a steel line snapping and coming back at me or my friends out on a trail.

Cooooool. I can't blame you, especially with t-bars. Post pics!