Interest in a trail run for new wheelers? (summer)

[Andrew]

So I'm curious if any here would be interested in a trail for those who are newer to wheeling or maybe never gone before and want to start. I have noticed a few posts by some here and there who have 4x4's but were not as comfortable on a higher rated trail, etc. Of course some people aren't as into the tougher trails, but if you are or think you would be....

My thought is if you are interested in learning and doing more, I would be willing to lead a couple easier/stocker runs this summer but not just wheel also go over things like safety and hand signals and spotting and such. Maybe then do an intermediate trail for those who want to try some harder obstacles, etc. Now, I am by no means an expert at wheeling and don't know everything there is to know - but we all keep learning new things all the time I'm sure.

Perhaps another experienced member would be interested as well. I think offering this as a club could be cool, and if we can get new people into wheeling that's always a great thing I think! Or get current members more comfortable with their rig and driving skills.

Of course, there would have to be some ground rules, etc. and I would definitely cover all of the proper trail behavior - staying on the trail and pack in/pack out, etc.

Thoughts anyone? Not sure if/how many would fit the bill for this here, or what interest would be.

[Smash]

Isn't this what the stockers without lockers run? Or?

[Andrew]

Well I'm not sure - maybe that's what it was intended to be, but on that one most seemed fine as is. I am just looking to see if there are any new people who may not have a lot of experience yet and would like some help with some things, etc.

[Smash]

I would definitely be in! I'm a 4x4 newbie and have a ton to learn.

[BlackRubi]

I'm fairly new to the rockcrawling aspects of wheeling. Mud and things like that... pretty much all we have in the south, so I'm pretty sure of myself in that regard. I'm on board. And I'll chip in whenever you need or want me to.

[Chris]

Good idea Andrew, the Stockers w/o Lockers is supposed to be that but last time the trail choice was poor for stockers/newbies. We have plenty of people that would probably jump at this so come up with a suitable trail and date and go for it.

[BlackRubi]

Ashley has been clamoring to do Red Cone again (pretty much since we left the trail for last year's Stockers run). Are there any milder trails in that area that could be used as a warmup/training area, the maybe move to Red Cone for the intermediate trail?

[Brody]

The Bill Moore, Mill Creek minus the Elephant Hill part is a good one. ChinaWall, most anything off Tarryall Road, Hackett, Longwater, Metberry Gulches, Sevenmile Road, Moody Hill/Crystal Mountain minus the quarry part, Slaughterhouse Gulch are some more. Red Cone doesn't cut it for a stocker/newbie run at all and was, to me, a really bad call...

Part of this would depend on the time of year and what was open. I ran a recovery clinic last year or the year before and would be happy to do another one as it covered stuff everyone needs to know. Bear helped out on that one and maybe would again, but another person experienced with a lot of different scenarios is almost necessary. We had quite a large turn out for the 'recovery clinic' and I don't see why we couldn't incorporate both into one run. Just a suggestion....

Posting this up early is good as we can get a good feel for what people want . Finding something equal distance between Colorado Springs and Denver would also be a plus.

[Andrew]

Slaughterhouse perhaps...it's been dozed so it should be relatively simple.

Red Cone doesn't usually open until later summer.

Also I was thinking Lefthand Canyon is a good one that's relatively close to most people. It also has some optional stuff you can do here and there. And you can exit via Castle Gulch for a lot of rocks and a bit of challenge/spotting opportunites. I took my Xterra on both those trails when it was totally stock. It only banged up the stock nerf bars a bit, but I was getting rid of them anway and didn't care.

For a good intermediate trail there is Middle St. Vrain. It's a bit tougher in a few spots than Lefthand and even Red Cone - Red Cone is more of a height/narrow road thing.

Another good intermediate loop that is also a favorite of mine is Ptarmigan Pass (Wearyman Road) and McAllister Gulch. It's another later summer trail. It also has some awesome views. Trail Damage rates it lower, but McAllister has a switchback that is a bit tougher, or was. It may be a good loop to do with the first part (Ptarmigan) being relatively mild. Just a few rocky areas and some mud with water crossings and parts of it the water runs right down the trail.

[Brody]

I didn't mention Left Hand Canyon simply because in the good weather that place is way too crowded and zoolike (the close proximity to Boulder probably accounts for the latter) and there really aren't that many places where you can park (like for lunch or recovery crap) a large number of rigs without jamming someone else up.

[JeffX]

An important evaluative criteria (beyond trail surface) is 'death factor'. For beginners, a trail that has narrow shelf roads or off-camber is probably not the right venue. Although trails like Red Cone or Imogene are acceptable for stocker, they're no good for beginners. The consequences of a mistake are too grave. I like this idea, especially if there are optional obstacles for the built rigs.

[Rusty]

I think this is an awesome idea. Wheeling 101, sign me up.

[Brody]

I think this is an awesome idea. Wheeling 101, sign me up.

HAHA...you already saw a bunch of the recovery clinic:D

[Andrew]

An important evaluative criteria (beyond trail surface) is 'death factor'. For beginners, a trail that has narrow shelf roads or off-camber is probably not the right venue. Although trails like Red Cone or Imogene are acceptable for stocker, they're no good for beginners. The consequences of a mistake are too grave. I like this idea, especially if there are optional obstacles for the built rigs.

Yup I was definitely going to be avoiding any shelf roads.

I think even most experienced wheelers will pucker up a bit on an off-camber shelf road.

[SubaCool]

+1 for the general idea.

[cfr]

I'd suggest that we offer a series of increasingly difficult runs and clearly explain which ones require low range gearing.

For example (using trails I'm most familiar with),

1. Switzerland Trail
2. Bunce School Road
3. Pole Hill Road (4low req'd)
4. Middle St. Vrain / Coney Flats (4low req'd)

I started about one year ago and that's the order I did them in.

[89blaze]

Sounds great! Count me in. Im not sure my rig is even trail ready. So I could use all kinds of help. Im still working on my clutch problem and I think Ive got the head gasket problem under control for a couple more months. I know I need new shocks and maybe a couple more inches of lift. But lets do it.
Thanks Andrew for the offer.. lookn forward to more info...
Brett

[Fordguy77]

I like this idea alot. I have wheeled, but its more of just taking a stab at it blindly and hoping everything goes alright. I hopefully will have to rigs done by that time and my be able to get my gf to actually try driving off road!!!

[AccordRanger]

I like it. I think some good ones would be
Bill Moore
Lefthand
Pole Hill
Johnny Park
Bunce School
Middle St. Vrain

Ive Done Pole, Johnny, and LHC but never all the way through.

[porkchop]

im in for this, we could do old flowers road thats the first trail i did

[gm4x4lover]

i would be happy to help on it as well.

[Medic-5150]

Maybe as part of the "training" an experienced rider could ride in each vehicle and give on the spot advice and answer any questions immediately.

[Rob]

Finding something equal distance between Colorado Springs and Denver would also be a plus.

Hey, what about all us Northerners?

I'd be up for it, provided my wife starts working again this year and I don't run out of gas money for wheeling.

[Rob]

HAHA...you already saw a bunch of the recovery clinic:D

He WAS the recovery clinic. At least the first time. On part two, he graduated past Wheeling 101. :fing:

[Jamie]

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?3491-China-Wall-11-30-08&highlight=chinawall

Great trial to learn what your rig can do. Bypasses around all obstacles and ends at the creek for a nice lunch.
It's a stretch for Denver folks but IMO well worth it.

Passable almost all winter!!

Set a date and I'll show up.

[brian pleasant]

i had good beginning experience with stock tj over at middle st vrain and coney flats, kind of challenge with low clearance but not too bad most of the way, i think i learned alot about rocks in one day there. good learning experience using 4 low there...

[Pathrat]

I feel compelled to speak up on this, and not specifically on Andrew's idea, which has merit, but on the 'bad call' posts regarding last years' stocker run.

I had a few discussions with the Stockers Without Lockers run organizer. In 2008, we did Kingston. Three people showed up. It was too tame. In 2009, there was pressure to do something harder than Kingston. The stockers wanted more of a challenge, so it seemed. No one anticipated inexperienced 'stockers', or rather street vehicles, and the ensuing cluster. The organizer did his best to accomodate everyone that was involved in 2009. Stockers Without Lockers is not necessarily an instructional trail run.

Andrew- my .02 is that you specify the objective level of difficulty, including trail damage and self-reports, and the reports should include how many years of experience the driver has and what you drove the trail with. I hope people keep in mind that what you are proposing are teaching runs, which are not necessarily stockers runs.

[KnuckleHead]

Seeing as I am still new to this, I love the idea. I have been on a couple of runs and at times was really lost as to what I was suppose to do or what line to take. So you can count me in on this. Now I just have to decide what rig to take when the time comes.... the little Isuzu or the BIG K5..????

[Brody]

Andrew- my .02 is that you specify the objective level of difficulty, including trail damage and self-reports, and the reports should include how many years of experience the driver has and what you drove the trail with. I hope people keep in mind that what you are proposing is are teaching runs, which is not necessarily a stockers run.

Thanks for the distinction here, Pathrat! And the suggestions...

Maybe a 'stockers without lockers' and a 'recovery clinic' run....If there are enough folks interested in doing both...I wasn't making the distinction between people who had stockers and experience, which I should have.

[Funrover]

Yup this is why we did Stocks W/O Lockers run. It was a welcome to wheeling set up


http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?3491-China-Wall-11-30-08&highlight=chinawall

Great trial to learn what your rig can do. Bypasses around all obstacles and ends at the creek for a nice lunch.
It's a stretch for Denver folks but IMO well worth it.

Passable almost all winter!!

Set a date and I'll show up.

They have leveled much of that trail now. It's not what is used to be.

[Andrew]

DAMNIT! I had a HUGE reply typed out, and the damn browser crashed.

[Mporter]

I would definitely be in for this, granted it's not super far away.

Just keep me posted

[Andrew]

Okay I'm thinking 2 different days, and 3 trails:


Things to bring for ALL trails:

1 - Pack a lunch.
2 - Plenty of water.
3 - Extra food and clothing just in case.
4 - Any tools necessary for your rig, and any spare parts you think are useful.
5 - SPARE TIRE!!
6 - Patience and a good attitude!

Also please understand that damage CAN happen, even on the most easy trails out there. You can also often end up with the wonderful Colorado Mountain Pinstriping from close trees. I cannot stress the spare tire enough. You NEED to have one for offroading. Especially in such a mixed group as we are, it's doubtful someone elses spare will properly fit your rig and match your tire size for the most part.

Day1/Trail 1 - Pole Hill

Skill Level: Beginner/Advanced Beginner
Requirements: 4x4 w/ Low Range Gears
Recommended: CB Radio

Types of Challenges: Some steeper hills than you may have done, some smaller rocks and rocky areas, some ruts/whoopdedoos

Trail Damage Rating: 3/4

I honestly don't know why this trail isn't a 2/3 in the summer. I led a fully stock manual transmission Frontier through this summer and it was her first time offroading (driving that is). Any stocker can do this trail and it's a good one to start out on. It's not too far of a drive from NoCO or Denver area either.


Day2/Trail 1 - Middle St. Vrain

Skill Level: Advanced Beginner/Intermediate
Requirements: 4x4 w/ Low Range Gears
Recommended: CB Radio, Rock Sliders (Rocker protection)

Types of Challenges: Larger rocks than Pole Hill, a few challenging spots, trail more rocky than dirt, a few water crossings

Trail Damage Rating: 3/5

MSV has a few tougher spots, more rocks and some water crossings. There is also a large (or was) mud pit/hole but it can be avoided. It has a few optional lines through obstacles that will challenge the more built up rigs. Stockers will be fine but need to take things slower. If you're lifted a little or have larger than stock tires that will help you. It's not necessary though. We got a fullsize Chevy (not too old...Silverado I think..it may have had some larger tires IIRC.) through here without trouble.


Day2/Trail 2 - Coney Flats

Skill Level: Intermediate/Advanced Intermediate
Requirements: 4x4 w/ Low Range Gears
Recommended: CB Radio, a little lift or larger tires will be a big help
HIGHLY Recommended: Rock Sliders (Rocker protection) - You don't have to have this, but just be aware of possible dents, etc. if you don't.

Types of Challenges: Even larger rocks than MSV, a small rock garden, a challenging uphill with a worn away hole kinda, and decently deep water crossing.

Trail Damage Rating: 5/6

First note - I WILL NOT take you on this trail if I don't think you are ready yet based on the previous trail or another experienced member's thoughts. This is not a knock on anyone so don't take it that way - it's just in the interest of safety for everyone. We're all different skill levels and there's no problem with that. That said, if you don't want to do Coney Flats, you must go back out MSV to the start - here is where I would need help. I would like 2-3 more experienced people to help lead and have someone take those who do not feel comfortable with this trail to lead them back out MSV.

There are 3 challenging areas on this trail - the uphill with the dug out area, the rock garden, and the water crossing. None is anything crazy, but realize this is not for a stock rig - you should have a little lift or some larger than stock tires with better tread for the best result. If you want to take a stocker through, realize that it is possible to get it banged up a little. We got the Chevy through this but it had a pretty big dent on the side of the bed at the end of the day, and probably a few other small ones. Probably would have been avoided with rock sliders, and I wasn't around spotting the guy so I'm not sure how it happened.

For the water crossing it is possible it is not safely passable. It varies depending on the time of year, rain, etc. I have put at the end a video of us crossing it so you can see as it's easier than trying to explain. Note that if you do not want to cross it, the only way to get back out is to back-track out all the way back to the beginning of MSV.

Water Crossing:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M86N9Kup8vU


Pics:

[Brody]

DAMNIT! I had a HUGE reply typed out, and the damn browser crashed.

I thought that I was the only one that happened to! It seems it never does it on the one sentence crap, only on the longest stuff, and only then when you are either on the last sentence or correcting one misspelled word...

As a suggestion, you might want to put in all the stuff that you are going to cover, too:

Spotter signals and watching your spotter, not anything else, designating a single spotter, etc. Essentially all the stuff someone new to the sport needs to know..You lay the criteria and the rest of the experienced drivers will follow it.

These are good trails for this and the way you laid them out makes good sense. Good idea and I would be happy to help providing that I have a job or have work enough for gas money. I am sure that other experienced wheelers would be happy to help, too. Let's hear from some other folks who want to donate their time for this...

This is a good idea for all of you who are new to wheeling and is stuff that Bill Burke and others charge an arm and a leg for.

[Hypoid]

Good ideas from everyone.

The only contention I have is that a beginner run is for beginners. I don't much care if a trail is boring to the experienced wheelers. The object is to get newbs jazzed about off-roading, not scare them witless and break their equipment.

Pete, sign me up for a recovery clinic or two. I'll have enough tricks when I have enough tools. :)

Andrew, I like your format for progressive difficulty. You may want to limit your group size for a given run to ensure a manageable ratio of newbs to trail hands.

One other idea I'd like to toss out is the concept of training trainers. There is a good core group, but not everyone can go at any given time. By developing consistent skill sets among people who would like to go on these runs, you have a more consistent skill base for the next run in the progression, regardless of who can go.

Just my two bits. I'll be lucky if I can go once a month this season.

[Smash]

Even if I don't advance quickly enough to do all the trails you listed, or if my rig can't handle it, I want to atleast tag along for all of them. I have a lot to learn. I'm a good listener.

[Andrew]

Even if I don't advance quickly enough to do all the trails you listed, or if my rig can't handle it, I want to atleast tag along for all of them. I have a lot to learn. I'm a good listener.

That's fine too! I don't plan on doing both days in the same month. Probably one one month and another the next.

And a possible third day for those who opted outof Coney Flats.

[AccordRanger]

I would think on the day of the Pole Hill run, if there is enough time to spare, run Johnny Park. Last time i was up there in a stock hardbody it was a good trail to make you stop and actually take a look at some obstacles and figure out what is the best line to take.

[cfr]

The only contention I have is that a beginner run is for beginners. I don't much care if a trail is boring to the experienced wheelers. The object is to get newbs jazzed about off-roading, not scare them witless and break their equipment.


Agreed. That's why I listed Switzerland Trail and Bunce School Road as the first on my list. Maybe we should have a "total n00b" run first on something as easy as one of those. E.g., this is the run where people learn to remember to pack a lunch and pee in the woods.

[Andrew]

Agreed. That's why I listed Switzerland Trail and Bunce School Road as the first on my list. Maybe we should have a "total n00b" run first on something as easy as one of those. E.g., this is the run where people learn to remember to pack a lunch and pee in the woods.

That is fine as well so yeah if there are some new new new people I wouldn't mind leading them. However I would probably want to start early and run another trail after that personally just for a challenge. So do Bunce and some of us can go play around at Ironclads afterwards. I've got no problem with doing that.

I want there to be an educational element, and I'll have to think of a way to do things so I'm not repeating myself and boring people lol.

[Rob]

Agreed. That's why I listed Switzerland Trail and Bunce School Road as the first on my list. Maybe we should have a "total n00b" run first on something as easy as one of those. E.g., this is the run where people learn to remember to pack a lunch and pee in the woods.

If you go with Switzerland, there are a couple of offshoots that even beginners could try if they're up to it. Also, if you go the other way (north?) off 52, the trail has a few challenging spots that have bypasses.

[CR]

Great Ideas guys.
Andrew, I would def. be willing to help out especially on the MSV/Coney run.
I 've run both of those trails a good 50 times the past 2-3 years in different vehicles from a stock dakota to a built toy and mostly in my toy.
Any help you need in organizing, leading, spotting, taking partial group back down or anything, just let me know.