First Aid Information Chat Only

[Brody]

I moved all the chat from Andrews First Aid thread to this one so as not to clutter up his informative thread "Your First Aid Kit". Please continue all your non essential (though informative) chatter in this thread.

[Brody]

Does anyone have a definitive answer on the shelf life of meds? Example: How long do painkillers (oxycodone for example) retain their potency?

It's my understanding it's measured in years which seems most likely. (Combining posts here for clarity. PB)

Answer:

WHAT ARE THE DANGERS Let's just say that the expired Rx you plan on taking was dispensed by your pharmacist 2 years ago. Before your doctor wrote the prescription, he or she asked you what other drugs you were currently taking. Based on your response, the doctor may have chosen a specific drug (for you) such that a hazardous drug interaction would not occur. Currently, you may be using different drugs that would cause a dangerous and even deadly interaction with the expired medication. . The manufacturer cannot guarantee the strength and potency of their product past the printed expiration date. If a medication undergoes prolonged exposure to light, air and moisture, the active ingredient in the product reacts, rendering a change in the drug's potency. When aspirin is stored in the bathroom medicine cabinet, the prolonged exposure to moisture in the air makes the active ingredient in aspirin convert to acetic acid, which is why old aspirin smells like vinegar. Many drugs loose their potency with age. This becomes a major issue when the patient is using a maintenance drug such as an inhaler or a cholesterol-lowing prescription. The medication looses its effectiveness and can place the user in an unhealthy situation. Would you want to take expired medication for sever cardiac arrhythmia? Furthermore, medications in the liquid dosage form can actually increase in strength past the printed expiration date because some components of the liquid can evaporate, leaving more of the active ingredient. Outdated eye and ear drops may no longer be sterile and could possibly lead to an infection or irritation. Some expired medications can become downright dangerous. Tetracyclines are "broad-spectrum" antibiotics used to treat a wide variety of infections. Doctors may prescribe these drugs to treat eye infections, pneumonia, gonorrhea, and other bacterial infections. The medicine is also used to treat acne. This common drug may be in your medicine cabinet. Tetracyclines become dangerous past their expiration dates; expired tetracyclines can cause serious damage to the kidneys.

SO DO YOU THROW EXPIRED PRESCRIPTIONS (http://www.associatedcontent.com/theme/601/prescriptions.html) AWAY Dr. Tedd Mitchell states that as long as you do not unseal a manufacture's container, a drug may be good far beyond its expiration date. We know this because back in 1985 the Air Force wound up with a stockpile of medications that were just about to expire. Not wanting to throw away medicine (and money) unnecessarily, the Air Force asked the Food and Drug Administration to check the drugs for safety and effectiveness. The FDA estimated that 80% of the medication would remain safe for nearly 3 years past their expiration date.

So we ask the question again; should you throw expired prescriptions (http://www.associatedcontent.com/theme/601/prescriptions.html) away? This decision is up to you. If you are in doubt, check with your pharmacist or your doctor.

PB:This is a very generic answer to a question that can only be answered with a generic answer, but does cover the basics..Personally, I never look at my scrip meds as they are either pain killers or antibiotics. They will either work or not and nothing life threatening is going to happen with either. It is a whole other story with medications that concern life threatening issues.

[Brody]

Thanks for all that info Chris and Pete for whatever you edited...! I would have to say that anything that will be taken for a life threatening issue is going to be used regularly and will be used long before it's expiration date.

As a side note on prescription drugs, don't flush them or throw them away. Bring them back to a pharmacy in a ziplock bag. If you throw them away they end up in our streams and such. Same with flushing them. Flushing them could result in it being in our drinking water as treatment plants cannot filter the drugs out.

[Brody]

I understand all that but know that many meds have a long shelf life and would like to know if painkillers are going to be effective when needed. I carry some in my truck and it would be a disappointment to find they didn't do their job. I'm not worried about interactions myself, I know what I can and cannot take.

[Brody]

If it were me and the pain killers were getting old, I'd just take another one or two or three depending on the original strength of the pain killer. I've taken up to 6 Tylenol or Ibeuprofin and never had any problems. I've been told it's OK to do so by doctors as well, as long as it's not a regular habit. Odds are you're not going to have some super strength pain killer in your truck and taking an extra one isn't going to kill you. IE taking an extra Vicodin. You'll probably be a lot of things including incredibly loopy. However, dead is something you will not be unless you have a reaction to it or something. All of this is my personal opinion, except the Tylenol part. I've got a friend in California who's an ER doctor, I'll give him a call and get his input on this. My understanding is that they just lose potency and there are no health effects, thus my reasoning behind taking a little extra if you know they're old. Half of a pain killer is psychological affects though so even if it's old, just taking it will probably do the trick assuming you don't know it's 15 years old!

[Brody]

Well, I'm talking about Vicodin, Oxycodone, Percocet losing potency over time. I don't take anything I don't need but when I need something like this I would like to know it's going to work. I'm no doctor but having raised a couple kids it's very apparent that doubling the maximum dose of over the counter drugs is safe though nobody should take my word for it.

[Brody]

I got a hold of my doctor friend today. He says pain killers are good for a long long long time after their "expiration date". Once they start to go bad they will simply become less effective. They don't turn into a toxin or anything and will not hurt you. No worries, just take an extra if they're a couple years past their expiration date.

[Brody]

Just make sure that you keep it in the bottle that has the precription with your name on it to avoid or at lease reduce the chances of getting in trouble! Technically posessing precription narcotics that are pass their experation is illegal! The reason for this is people hang on the their bottles and buy illegal narcotics to re supply themselves.

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chris http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?p=88959#post88959)
Thanks Andrew, nice to have that confirmed. http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/../images/smilies/fing.gif

[Brody]

most meds that are are "ready" to expire if they get returned back to a pharmacy most of the time go to 3rd world countries to get redispenced to people who need meds-scrip,nonscript,painkillers etc. by red cross/relief medics. most meds if not tampered w/(sealed) will last 8 plus years. BUT like chris said most manufactures of meds will only give you 3-5 year self lif due to liability. cardic,diabetic,clot-busting/blood thicking meds BECAREFUL,don't give med to people in which you truly don't have any idea what is going on w/ them .. head trauma open or closed no morphine,it masks the signs and symtoms-- do you know the S&S of head trauma if not don't give pain killers.
the worst thing you can do is forget about the meds you carry and place them in the heat/cold don't forget temp changes jack w/ the strength of meds.
QUIKCLOT is awesome BUT remember if the wound is that bad to use it you must get that person to a facality to irrigate the wound reopen the wound repair the injury

as both a military and civilian medic most hard meds i carry are injectors,as for the OTC meds i carry childrens meds due to how easy they are to dose pt w/out the worry of overdosing the pt ----CARPENTERS RULE MEASURE TWICE CUT ONCE-- use the least amount then slowly increase while observing pt .in the middle of nowhere if you overdose somebody and accidently kill them at the very least you better carry that 125-160-200-250 pound person out. middle of nowhere is along carry.

if anybody is interested in some basic med/firstaid/info classes feel free to contact me @farris survival 3037810343 ask for edward

[Brody]

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by southpaws3 http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?p=94304#post94304)
most meds that are are "ready" to expire if they get returned back to a pharmacy most of the time go to 3rd world countries to get redispenced to people who need meds-scrip,nonscript,painkillers etc. by red cross/relief medics. most meds if not tampered w/(sealed) will last 8 plus years. BUT like chris said most manufactures of meds will only give you 3-5 year self lif due to liability. cardic,diabetic,clot-busting/blood thicking meds BECAREFUL,don't give med to people in which you truly don't have any idea what is going on w/ them .. head trauma open or closed no morphine,it masks the signs and symtoms-- do you know the S&S of head trauma if not don't give pain killers.
the worst thing you can do is forget about the meds you carry and place them in the heat/cold don't forget temp changes jack w/ the strength of meds.
QUIKCLOT is awesome BUT remember if the wound is that bad to use it you must get that person to a facality to irrigate the wound reopen the wound repair the injury

as both a military and civilian medic most hard meds i carry are injectors,as for the OTC meds i carry childrens meds due to how easy they are to dose pt w/out the worry of overdosing the pt ----CARPENTERS RULE MEASURE TWICE CUT ONCE-- use the least amount then slowly increase while observing pt .in the middle of nowhere if you overdose somebody and accidently kill them at the very least you better carry that 125-160-200-250 pound person out. middle of nowhere is along carry.

if anybody is interested in some basic med/firstaid/info classes feel free to contact me @farris survival 3037810343 ask for edward
I agree that meds don't really expire in the time on the bottle, ever notice that your precription expires on the same date you pic them up? Do you think that they get new meds every day? I think not! What I was mentioning is the narcotics because they are illegal! And very strictly regulated!

I would agree and disagree with a lot of this but I think this is getting by far more complicated for the general population! Considering that you can have many medics as well as doctors argue all day with what drugs can be giving on head injury and stroke pt. or not! If anyone was really interested in learning about giving these drugs take at least the EMT-B class I would highly recommend at least EMT-I or better yet EMT-P if you are interested in these drugs! That way you have a much better understading of what you are doing! http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/../images/smilies/wink.gif

I would for one would be very hesitant to give any drugs off duty to anyone except my own family!http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/../images/smilies/erm.gif
They do make QuikClot sponge now, so you dont have to put that nasty stuff in the wound!
http://www.galls.com/style.html?asso...og&style=FA213 (http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=FA213)

[Brody]

tbalcome .. w/ narcs?! i truely agree!!this is way over most peoples head like 5150 said THIS IS ALL BASIC why in the hell would use narcs on somebody in the middle of nowhere?!?!?! i'M NOT A DR. I'M A PARAMEDIC SO WHAT I'M LETTING YOU KNOW IS IN MY SCOPE OF PRACTICE.. ANY MEDICAL PERSON WILL ARGUE ABOUT WHAT MEDS TO USE BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALL THE MONITORS,LABS,FELLOW DR'S, NURSES AT THEIR CALL HOW MANY DR'S KNOW HOW TO HELP ANYBODY OUTSIDE A CLINIC,OFFICE TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR LITTLE TOYS PLUS IF A PT DIES AND THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION IT ALL STARTS WITH ME THE MEDIC, NURSE ,HOSITAL THEN THE DR . WE are talking about 2 different areas medical side and middle of nowhere side . like i said you now have to manage that person-vitals,bp,breathing rate,reactions, I&O's.. plus the fact the some meds are per kilo do you really want to carry,load that pt because you have taken 2-5 pain killers before and nothing has happen to them so why not give somebody else a dose of that too .. I
The state of colorado is getting rid of EMT-I classes you can take course that would make you a EMT-I but the only thing out there is EMT-B.and paramedic. 5150 and myself will tell you that the med classes have changed -alot !
EMT-B is basic and gives you just enough info to make you dangerous plus it cost you only 1900 dollars @ any community college.. paramedic is only nursing prereqs the 5000 dollar... oohh don't forget the fact you need 500 hours of pt contact (on your own time ) just to finish the 4 year course that is everything.and EMT-8-15 per hour no experience.Paramedic 10-18 per hour no experience . Colorado is a medical teaching state so every college has a course. that means you must be state certified to practice as well as nationaly certified.
NOT TRYING TO P1SS ANYBODY OFF I AGREE EDUCATION IN THIS AREA IS WONDERFUL IT IS VERY OVER LOOKED. I've worked on people in alot of different settings and the worst thing to do is something in which you think is helping the pt but in all reality your hurting them.

[Brody]

Yeah that is what I what I am saying with this forum in general. Medic -5150 started this form as a simple forum to inform our group of what to keep with them when they go 4wheeling, and how to take care of themselves! In the last couple pages it has kind of turned into a drug guide of sorts! So that is where I am putting in my two cents worth! I would hate to see one of our group members get a felony because they are carrying some Vicodin in their first aid kit.
As well has our certification and ability to obtain those drugs as providers do not cover us when we are off duty and 4wheeing with our buddies! So I was trying to state that if people in our group feel inclined to carry their expired narcotic with them to do so at their own risk, and to inform them of their liabilities. My comment to your last comment was, that half the stuff you were explaining with the head injuries and using meds in my opinion takes this forum way out of context for what it is intended for.
In my humble opinion members of our group should not carry meds in their first aid kits with the intent to give them to others. However it is a great idea to carry meds your family may need! Like extra blood pressure medication, your inhaler if you use one ect. For in the event you get stuck out on your journey longer than expected! You may consider bringing some pain reliever like Ibuprofen, and I carry over the counter Lanacane for burns and scratches, and Anbesol which has came in handy when I broke a tooth while camping! I would use all the drugs as directed.
BTW the state is not taking away EMT-I quite yet. It is still widely used in rural areas. There are rarely classes in the metro area because it is not used here! They did have one recently in Evergreen though. Colorado is pushing for something like NY has with their EMT-Advanced. I started as a Cadet with the Fire Dept in Eagle County in 2000 became a FR in 2001 EMT-I in late 2003 then after moving to the metro area in 2004, when it was time to recertify in 2006 I became a EMT-B, IV, EKG which I still hold since there is no advantage down here to carry the ACLS. I agree a lot of things have changed in the short 10 years I have been involved in EMS.
We used EMT-I a lot for search and rescue and for ski patrol in Eagle county and neighboring counties. I am to understand anyone who is an EMT-I, if Colorado does decide to change they will be grand fathered in. You do not have to hold your NREMT to practice in this state; however you must have your Colorado. Though having you National makes it much easier if you decided to move out of state!

[Brody]

i truely agree w/you .being military 17yrs going to civilian is a pain. god i hope they grandfather you and everybody in . i've wrked for DG for 10yrs sh1t i didn't get no grandfather in for either
. great luck.
I'm currently starting PA school if interested... i just donated my right nut for tution,kidney on the black market .http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/../images/smilies/eek.gif

[Brody]

Yeah that really sucks that when you exit the service there is not some kind of class you can take that will let you get your NR when you leave, I think I that is starting to change though! I think they are startingto teach the NR from the begining then adding all the extra's they let you guys do in the service latter. That way the millitary medics can get jobs right out of the service.

PA school I have been on fence on going to PA school or Paramed school, right now my full time job I work at a mental health worker, and make as much as paramed. It would be like to make a little more! But I may sign up for the National Guard and let them pay for it!

[southpaws3]

theNR is still used it's all the other info they pump down us ,all the premed courses that we can't cert on . But a few colleges will convert your experience over to college credits ,i did that it was such a pain . when you finish you still can't jump out of your scope - t it is like being a 1st responder with the skill and knowledge of a paramed .
i don't know about having guard you what call me 3032498186 lets talk bsafe

[tbalcome]

" it is like being a 1st responder with the skill and knowledge of a paramed ."

That is what it is like being a EMT-I in the metro area :lmao:

[southpaws3]

yeah you gotta get out of that that sh1t will makes you nuckinfuts:D

[Medic-5150]

Has anyone built a first aid kit yet?

New members, what are you guys carrying in your rigs?

[Brad]

I was just entertaining this today. Plan on mounting a first aid kit inside my rear door.

[Chris]

I recommend a closer location Brad, mine's under my seat. I hope seconds will never make a difference in responding but if it does I'd rather have a few extra rather than too few.

[Pathrat]

Good suggestion. I try to position mine so it can be easily reached over the back seat or from the rear. My kit is too big to fit under the seat. I keep a loose segment of soft cotton rope looped once around the handle and the other end around the headrest. Keeps the kit where I want it and is easy to disconnect and take out.

[foxtrot]

if anyone wants to buy and medical supplies, let me know. I can buy it through a prepaid medical card I have and you could give me the money. I paid for the card for my braces, but ended up not being able to use it, and it's non-refundable. it would really help me out :bowdown:

[Pathrat]

Good idea Foxtrot. If you can't get buyers right now, I would suggest, before the account expires, that you buy durable first aid supplies and bring them on runs for resupply sales. I go through my kit every spring. HOW ARE YOUR KITS EVERYONE? NEED MORE STUFF???

I would buy, but I have access to stuff where I work.

[Medic-5150]

Good idea Foxtrot. If you can't get buyers right now, I would suggest, before the account expires, that you buy durable first aid supplies and bring them on runs for resupply sales. I go through my kit every spring. HOW ARE YOUR KITS EVERYONE? NEED MORE STUFF???

I would buy, but I have access to stuff where I work.

Mine looks pathetic! It needs about $200 worth of stuff

[foxtrot]

Mine looks pathetic! It needs about $200 worth of stuff

:2thumbup:

[Farris Survival]

if you need hard to get med supplys stop by or give us a call as some of you know big Ed helps here with the medical stuff , he has put numerous bags together for people of various walks of life/adventures
plus his experience/knowledge is great

[Medic-5150]

With my dog's recent ear infection, I'm curious if anyone on here has any experience with canine first aid as many of us have pets and bring them along.

[Brody]

Only from growing up on a farm with a lot of animals and pets. Here are some links for you, though:

http://www.avma.org/firstaid/

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/fstaidk.html

http://www.dog-first-aid-101.com/dog-first-aid.html

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/firstaid.htm

These will sure get you started. There is a mess of information on these sites and more. I just Googled 'Basic First Aid For Canines' and the information was immense...

[Brad]

I recommend a closer location Brad, mine's under my seat. I hope seconds will never make a difference in responding but if it does I'd rather have a few extra rather than too few.

A great idea, however I was thinking of higher ground. Don't want to fjord a deep river and render the contents useless.

I still need to source this and get it into my rig.

[Brody]

Call Ed(Southpaw3) at Farris Survival, introduce yourself as being from FR, that you know me and I sent you down there and he will hook you up with a good and basic kit.

Farris Survival LLCFarris Survival LLChttp://maps.google.com/?cid=14560337652059086255s=9758315778676413985
3366 South Broadway
Englewood, CO 80113-2428
(303) 781-0343

He was a combat medic for something like 18 years. Me, Medic and Ed all carry what amount to trauma packs, but you don't need a huge amount of junk to keep the heart beating and the blood from gushing.

Take a look through this thread and you will get a real good idea of what first aid stuff works, what to carry, etc.:

http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?6237-Andrew-s-First-Aid-Kit-and-Information-Thread&highlight=aid