58 Willys Wagon

[FINOCJ]

I think I needed to see this even if it doesn't mean much in terms of moving forward with the project....kind helps motivation


Nice to see everything fits together...SBC350 to 1-piece aluminum bell to SM465 to D18....of course, the hard part will be fitting it under the willys and all the details like engine placement, motor moutns, cross-member, steering, clutch etc....I've been playing around with some modification to the stock cross-member to see if I can re-use that in some way - its really hard to tell alignment and spacing and probably won't be able to do much until its under the wagon. Guess I will go pull off a front fender to make it easier to try and slide this whole shebang in from the front - probably gonna have to start thinking about cutting some floorpan sheemetal out to accommodate this....

The extra width of the sm465 compared to the original T90 (or T14 like in my cj5) really covers the one front facing D18 bolt up. Hopefully with a bit of lubricant I it will turn in by finger a couple turns, then I can get a 12pt closed end wrench on it (maybe even buy on of those hinged closed end ratchet wrenches)....but got to get it in fer'nuff to get the wrench behind it.

[Jim]

FINOCJ previously posted:

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Maybe there is hope this will all go back in the wagon one day....never dropped an engine in with transmission and transfer case all as one...in some ways, makes it real easy other than there is nothing to mount anything to - but of course having the radiator and front grill off is a big piece of that...


I think I am getting close to getting the engine positioned correctly - in short I think the front end will have to come up a bit to get to the proper 3 degrees or so, and the whole thing will probably need to shift towards the driver side an inch or so....that will help with the two big clearance issues I am seeing: the front driveshaft to starter and the D18 to the floorpan tunnel. I have already cut the transmission hole bigger, but will need to cut a bit more on the driver side to allow things to shift in that direction....and of course, none of this has been tested with drivetrain weight on the suspension, which will be done after shifting things drivers side a bit. Hopefully its getting close.

General position:


Engine inclination - only about 1.5 degrees, so that needs to be increased a bit, and when the suspension sags under weight, it may need even a bit more:


Liking the clearance on the back firewall - a large HEI won't fit, but a small HEI or pertronix unit might without too much firewall mod....obviously, the old hole is going to need some attention.


Clearance in the front looks fine with the axle so far, and I think the long nose water pump would actually fit based on measurements (a bit tight) - planning to keep the electric fan set-up to maximize clearance there, but will can switch out to a short nose pump if needed.


Here is my biggest concern so far - the front driveshaft to starter clearance. Moving the engine toward the driver side will help a bit, and maybe getting it a bit higher will help. Getting it driver won't be too difficult, but getting it higher is not as easy.


Driverside clearance is fine as long as the steering shaft is routed low (below the motor mount) and horizontal (which will be an entirely separate project)...should be able to push the engine towards this side a bit:


In terms of floorpan tunnel clearance... already cut the opening bigger, but going to have to cut a bit more to push things toward driver. Its also going to get tight with the gas pedal, but maybe that can be moved a bit if needed.


From the underside, the D18 is hitting the hat channel on the side of the tunnel, so it cannot go any higher. If it moves driver a bit, that will help give it a bit more clearance, and maybe give an inch or so of upward movement.


Finally, the cross-member....looks like everything is just high enough to clear the old cross-member, which is flat mounted under the frame. Its already a bit low and exposed being below the frame, so don't really want anything hanging any lower. Based on the D18 torque mount, if everything gets shifted just under and inch driver - the old torque mount would work with a flat cross-member, and the drivetrain will be lateraly just as it was original....but it is going to need an isolator mount under the trans. Its hard to see in the pic, but its sitting on top of the cross-member just left of the adapter plate. I got the Novak one that mounts into the bottom of the adapter plate, but obviously, its not going to fit on top of a flat cross-member - so some sort of modification or notch to the cross-member to create a bit of space is going to be needed. Or everything has to be raised 1.75" and I think that starts to create major interference with the floorpan tunnel...


After getting everything pushed left - will have to see about getting the motor mounts clamped in place to test out putting the drivetrain weight on the frame, and putting on the add-ons like carb/air cleaner, starter etc and inspect clearances.

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Did some work to get things shifted towards the driver....had to cut the tunnel a bit more, and then a bit more yet...It is a bit of hassle at this point to drop the transmission way down to give a lot clearance for cutting so just did a few small notches with the dremmel and will eventually go back and clean that all up with a bit more clearance. The sm465 really comes up through the floor now:


That allowed me to get the engine mostly level and moved over...the engine is about 1.25" closer to the driver side frame rail than the passenger - easy to see the difference in the length of the mounts
driver mount:


passenger mount:


I c-clamped the mounts to the frame - supposedly that is enough hold engine weight for test fitting. The one thing that is very hard to tell is if the engine is sitting square in the frame, and the crank and drivetrain are (in theory) directly parallel to the frame rails and perpendicular to the cross-member....given the age and abuse seen by this old wagon, the frame probably isn't all the square anyway, and the frame widens out right behind the engine...tough to tell, but I think it will help once its sitting solely on the mounts and they are tightened up a bit.

Got the D18 torque mount lightly in place as that seems to set up well with the cross-member, but had to shim the transmission up 1/4" to level things out (might be a bit more after the weight is transferred to the engine mounts from the chain)....still have to figure out the isolator mount.



Its sitting under it own weight on the mounts...the engine isn't at full weight as there are no pistons, rods or crank - so its a bit light, but the heads have the complete valve train. Put some of the accessories on like the carb, air cleaner, distributor, alternator, and electric wiper motor...



This is not the air cleaner that was on the 283, and it has a more recessed bottom, so even with a 3" tall filter, it sits lower (covering more of the carb) and has no issue with the hood, and even better gives a bit room for the electric wiper motor. Its a 14" air cleaner, so maybe I can drop down to a 13" to provide a safe amount of clearance for the wiper motor. As for the distributor, an OEM large cap HEI will not install as is, but an older points style distributor (with pertronix) will fit nicely, but think it will still require a small depression in the upper portion of the firewall for it to be installed/removed with engine in place. Still planning on looking for a shorter small HEI set-up. In all cases, the electric wiper motor will have to be removed, but I am planning to get that set-up with 4 easy machine screws into riv-nuts and a quick disconnect plug for the wires.



At first I was excited about how nicely the alternator bracket worked, but it is for a long water pump, and while I think the pump will clear the radiator, I do not think the associated lower crank pulley will clear the front cross-member (I assume the lower crank pulley has to stick out further to match the longer water pump) ..so probably going to have to go with a short water pump and shorter crank pulley, and figure out a different alternator bracket (and PS pump).



Also checking the front driveshaft clearance with starter mount...there is about 2.25" of vertical clearance. There is also an extra long bumpstop for the right leaf spring that is shifted back towards the the spring pivot that is there to help protect the starter.




So I think this is pretty darn close to the final position. There are trade-offs for every potential shift or change...as I will probably have to go to a short water pump, the engine could possibly be pushed a bit further forward to allow for easier distributor removal with a flat firewall, but it might change clearance with driveshaft/starter, and its hard to move the support cross-member much further forward as it will interfere with the frame mounted pedals. Raising the engine a inch or two more is also a possibility - it would help with driveshaft clearance, but hurt distributor access, and floorpan cutting would have to get a lot bigger to clear the D18, not just the sm465.
Compared to where the old 283 was mounted, the current position is about 2.5 further forward, and maybe 1 inch higher at the back, and will be even more at the front as the old 283 had no inclination to its mount. I think I will drop the pan and add in the crank, then test fit with short water pump

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Did a bit of test fitting, and the long water pump was a no go with the engine placement - interference with the electric fan and front cross-member. Did test clearance with short water pump - looks to be the route I will go, but going to need some multi-groove pulleys for short pump and crank. Could possibly run a mechanical fan with this engine placement and small spacer, although clearance with the front cross-member might be a problem. For now, sticking with the electric fan.



Doing some research on short water pump bracket mounts for alternator and steering pump as all the ones I have are for the long pump. Ordered up these, hoping they might do the trick:

Small Block Chevy Upper Alternator Bracket, Plain
this alternator bracket would keep it from getting too far outboard on the passenger side, as I also have to figure out where to mount the battery tray...the previous swap had the battery tray on the inside front passenger fender, and if kept there, it would interfere with too far of an 'outboard' alternator mount....The one linked would probably require a different water outlet angle but that is manageable.

JEGS 60795: Power Steering Pump Brackets Side Mount | JEGS
this PS pump mount looks good and is sort of the standard driver side mid mount - couldn't use this with the 283 as it had the front cradle mount that would have interfered. It has 2 positions, and I'd probably use the higher position for ease of access....

Pulled the drivetrain out to work on some stuff, before doing a final test fit later. I decided to 'clean up' the section of the ugly firewall that had been notched back into the cab to clear the distributor by just cutting out it all the junky rough and cracked stuff to find some good metal and smooth edge - this is going to be tough for me as the firewall is not just a flat panel, and I will probably need to create my own notch to provide some distributor install/removal clearance. Also will need to create a horizontal overlay for the seam between the upper and lower panels, as the welded and stiffening lip has been removed.


The motor mounts will need to be welded to frame...as they are positioned over a 'window' section of the frame, had to fill the window with new metal.




so I welded in a patch piece on each side...Getting better at doing this - hopefully the motor mounts don't pull out at 60mph...



Novak suggests best welding mount is to plug weld them to the inside of the frame rail boxing, and then run a short section of bead along the top, but not to run long weld beads vertically along the sides....what do you all think?

[Jim]

You might wish to take a look at what the Fab Rats guy did:
https://youtu.be/yqh3PbokqLI?t=788

I queued it for about 13 minutes. At 14:55 he talks about the diamond - for stress issues on the frame.

I don't have any idea if what he's doing is good/bad/otherwise. FWIW

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A little progress....needed to take care of the firewall hole and maintain the recess clearance for distributor access, as well as repair some cracking and separation of firewall panels, and mount the electric wiper motor with threaded inserts that allow for easy removal....for as old school as I may be sometimes, I had no interest to try and rebuild and use vacuum operated wipers!
Decided to try some sheetmetal fab work - very crude skills here:


Had some left-over 18g sheet metal from the floorpan project on the cj5 from years ago. Made a 3 sided box and the bottom portion that will also wrap around and down the lower firewall for the bottom edge and mount:



they go together to make this...


Idea is something like this:


traced out the firewall along the sides so I can trim the excess off the bottom:


Getting closer....


got the sides trim up to match the firewall profile, go the bottom corners of the box welded up, got the dash bracket for the vent lever drilled in place, and got the top angle edge trim in and cut around the wiper motor etc....just have the side edge trim left - it will be a little PITA as the edge profile is not straight. Also added in a brace across the upper and lower panel seem. The PO cut the welded pinch seam to make clearance for the old engine up against the firewall. Just used a bunch of 'spot' welds along the edge and throughout the middle where I drilled holes. I didn't trust trying to do much more with my lack of welding skills and the old, thin, crusty firewall - thought I might just burn through. Turn out it could handle some heat but this was easy enough. Still have to grind them mostly flat.

[FINOCJ]

Next up...
Added some front trim that wraps around to the face of the firewall...


.Decided to weld it all in but something simple like sheetmetal screws would have worked - but been a bit rough on the cab side of the firewall...not sure if one way is better than the other or not...I welded it using a poor mans spot/plug weld technique, and had to use some sheet metal screws to hold things tight and then weld up the those holes as well....Its rough....



Also mounted up the electric wiper motor with threaded inserts so its easily removeable (it will have to be removed prior to removing a distributor if needed). Did a lot of cleaning in the engine bay and inner fenders getting rid of years of oil and clay mudcake buildup....Started to find some of the original red coming through (or never painted over as the case with the fenders). There are still lots of unnecessary holes in the firewall and some other problems, its ugly and rough, but I think that is what its going to be. At least everything is solid - hopefully the cracks and panel separation that had begun is under control, and while its not pretty, and certainly not good for minimizing engine bay air into the cab (always drive with window and vent open), its feels rock solid, is maybe a small step better than it was, and hopefully won't be noticeable behind the engine too much. Its going to get some rattle can paint to help and then hopefully getting close to final fit-up and clearance of the engine etc....

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Finally, getting close to final test fitting....
Putting on all the accessories for final fit-up and test fit back in the engine bay....I moved the non-EGR intake that was on the 283 (but was not oem) to the 1978 350 along with the non-EGR q-jet I rebuilt a couple years ago. I checked the casting number on the intake and was common on 1969 350s for most all car applications (but not trucks). Interestingly enough, while the 69 intake fit on the 78 block, the 78 intake does not fit on the old 57 283 block as it won't clear the big round cylinder at the rear of the valley (I think its part of the draft tube system). Anyway, I've gotten to know Speedway Motors for ordering online sbc parts etc....had to find some unique alternator and power steering pump mounting brackets that will work with the short water pump. I think I posted awhile ago that I was hoping to use a long water pump, but there is not enough room between the engine and radiator/front cross-member.


Different water pump and brackets also means different pulley combinations for belt drives etc. I have a 2 groove crank pulley along with an additional add-on crank pulley (not in picture) for a 3rd groove (often advertised as power steering specific), as well as a 2 groove water pump pulley and the 2 groove pulley on the PS pump that I pulled off the 283.


Initially, the big problem was that the inner groove on the crank pulley is 'under' the water pump (or so far inward/closer to the block) that it is essentially useless. I bought the crank and water pump pulleys as a set, and was hoping that the 2 grooves on the crank would line up with the 2 grooves on the WP. But, as is, the forward/outer crank groove must be used with the inner/rearward wp groove. The inner wp groove is the one that lines up with the alternator, and with the high center mount alternator, you can't run a belt around all three pulleys. Basically, it seems I will have to use the 3rd groove add-on crank pulley, but not sure how much clearance I am going to have with the front cross-member, so I was hoping not to use the extra crank pulley.


After wracking my brain for how to align the alternator with the forward wp groove, in my end of day delirium, I got to thinking maybe I can run the alt off the rear/inner wp groove, and then run a single belt that combines the outermost (3rd) crank groove with the outermost wp and PS grooves...I didn't get a pic, but if that extra crank pulley will clear when test fitting, that will be the solution...hopefully this all still makes sense tomorrow morning...I need another beer now...

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So the pulley alignment issue was just bothering me to no end...I read on internet lore from summit racing that the front face of the dampener should be about 3" from the front machined face of the block - and mine was just under 2.5" so I needed to look into it more (besides the rear groove on the crank was essentially useless as it was and that didn't seem right). As this mock-up is just some test fitting for accessory clearance etc, I don't have any of the timing gears or cover on. Normally the dampener would 'bottom out' against the timing gear, but without the timing gear it went all the way until it bottoms out where the timing gear would stop against the crank shoulder...The timing gear is a bit over 1/2 thick...Here is the new alignment with the timing gear on the crank behind the dampener - both grooves in the upper and lower pulley match up and now I won't have to use the 3rd groove add-on. One belt for the alternator and one for the pump, and both will go around the crank and wp pulleys as well...much better.


and yes - when it correct, its about 3' from block to front face of the dampener:


nothing like turning a 30 min job into a 24hr hassle....now back to fit-up....

[Jim]

Ahhh - so much better.

Let me visualize - crank will have two belts contacting it. WP will have two belts contacting it. One of the belts will go to the Alt with the other to the PS, yes?

One of my concerns, with the prior post, was that only one belt would power the water pump AND the second groove of the water pump would power the alt. That condition could likely see what I encounter - the water pump being a high drag item at higher engine RPM - belt slippage at high engine RPM. This is an issue on my jeep's 'new' belt routing with the AC / air pump.

[FINOCJ]

Jim previously posted:

[FINOCJ]

I think molasses flows faster than my progress on this thing...still working on getting the engine and drivetrain placement in the correct spot. Maybe getting closer. Although I am using a longer transmission (4speed compared to 3speed), and have an adapter plate behind it, the additional 3 or so inches of length doesn't really push the transfer case and cross-member back (and thus doesn't change the driveshaft lengths etc), as I am also moving the engine forward those same 3 inches. Basically, the crossmember and transfer case mount will be in the exact same spot as OEM, so I thought it was going to be sweet and easy to mount stuff up...the Novak adapter plate has bolt holes in the bottom to fit standard GM isolator mount. But the as the sm465 is not only longer, its also taller (and wider), even with the whole thing pushed up as high as it can go (hitting the floorboards), the adapter plate basically sits on the cross-member, and there is no room to fit the isolator mount....Different solutions included cutting more of the floorboards out, which I felt I was kind of already at that limit, unless I wanted to build an entirely new floor everywhere. Also, this would raise the engine more, and possibly cause issues with the hood. Could raise the body a bit with a 1.5" body lift, but this usually causes issues with through the floor pedals for frame MC and mechanical clutch. Basically, for me, the best solution was to mod the cross-member without weakening it too much (note the crossmember has already been beat to hell from a PO).


So, my fab skills are pretty much nil. I think this is as good as the cross-member is going to get....I cut out a section of the cross-section to clear the isolator mount. Added a vertical rib to help stiffen in that direction - tried to extend it a couple inches beyond the cut-out to distribute the stress away from the cut-out corners. Used mostly plug welds through the vertical face to weld it in place...haven't decided if I should add more to the top seam.


Added in the horizontal section - I extended this as well beyond the cut-out - had to leave a small notch for a nut access for the parking brake lever mount:


Fought getting all the holes to line up - but with enough cussing and swearing it seems to all go together:




Put 1/2" spacers under the D18 side mount to keep everything level:


Using a lot of random/mismatched hardware I have laying around...as soon as it all looks good, it'll get nice new, proper strength and length set with correct washers etc...I think I might open the bottom holes in the crossmember up just another bit size to make installation a bit easier. Also thinking about using some button head bolts for the upper isolator mount to create a bit more clearance with the top of the cross-member.
Looking at this little summary, its hard to believe how long this has taken me...and its certainly not pretty, and its questionable whether its strong enough. I will have to keep a diligent eye on it and see what happens. I spent quite a lot of time researching building an all new cross-member from tubing with a drop section in the middle, but there are a lot of complications with how that would mount to the frame rails given other issues....seems easy enough to cut out the old crossmember mounts until you see that are integrated into the body mounts and are riveted through the frame. To mount a new cross-member would possibly require redoing the body mounts as well.

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Also working on the motor mounts. I have two options for how the mounts work - they end up placing the engine in the same place, just slightly different geometry for the bracket.
I like this one where the mount is higher (above to the frame rail) as it raises the bottom horizontal brace a bit to help with clearing stuff like steering shaft, but the trade-off is the brace mounts kind of high in comparison to the frame rail - in other words, I wonder if it will put too much stress or leverage on my questionable welds? Keep in mind that the frame rails are curving downward towards the rear at this point, so the front edge of the bracket sticks up about 1/2" above the frame rail, its quite a bit more in the rear (a full inch at least).


Here is a different view of the driver side mount with the high position...shows better how the bracket will mount to the frame - again, this vertical bracket will pretty much be in this position whether its the high or low mount. This also shows better how with the high mount, it will have more leverage on the top of the bracket above the frame. Definitely would be better for this side to stay high for the steering shaft to go under more easily and have a bit more flexibility with how that will work. In the pic, the steering shaft isn't in place - its just resting on top of the MC - it will be a bit higher when all is said and done.


Here is the passenger side with the lower mount geometry, and I like that the mount will be more directly matched to the frame rail where the plug welds will be on the bracket - seems a bit stronger, but my general inclination is always to keep things 'tucked up' as much as possible. Its not like the horizontal brace is lower than the oil pan or anything, so maybe it doesn't matter.


Here is the another view of the passenger side with the 'low' mount position. It may provide a bit less clearance with the bottom of the header collector this way, but its not much of an issue in either position.

Again, both of these positions create the exact same engine placement (there is both a high and low position on the engine side and on the frame rail side) - its just a matter of which arrangement to use with the bracket mounts for clearance and what not.

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Its getting close...don't want to celebrate yet as I still need to check front driveshaft-starter clearance and figure out battery mount, but....after taking jen out for a surprisingly nice cocktail and tapas on Sat night, hot springs and motel, then mtbing this morning, I got her to help me out for the afternoon/evening in the garage. The engine and drivetrain is sitting on the frame mounts and cross-member mount under its own weight. Everything in the engine bay looks good. Hood clearance is not an issue, but its hard to get the engine higher due to the large sm465/D18 combo hitting the floorpans...hopefully this is it:



I really like the clearance in the rear with the firewall, distributor and wiper motor....air cleaner is maybe a bit tight with the wiper motor, but its not as bad as it looks, and can probably change that pretty easily to a slightly smaller diameter or 2 inch thick filter instead of 3" thick.




The OEM battery location was driver side firewall - not sure if it doesn't fit with the wider v8s as compared to the OEM L6-226, but the PO moved it to the front passenger fender with the prior sbc swap (the v8 starter is on the passenger side), and it had a poorly designed mount that was bolted to both the body and welded to the frame....need to figure out if it can go back to the firewall (although that is where I put the brake reservoirs for the MC)....or if I can figure out a better mount on the passenger front and make a bracket - maybe something like an early flat fender jeep that attaches to the frame and front cross-member? Its part of why I used a high center alternator mount to leave some clearance for the battery (and maybe an A/C compressor for vintage air one day).

[FINOCJ]

Things have a way of escalating...

[derf]

The most expensive phrase in automotive work:

"As long as I'm in there..."

[FINOCJ]

So I have a bunch of steering work going on...in the end, it will have a new aftermarket steering column to replace the AMC jeep era column that had been swapped in when the OEM steering was replaced with power steering. I am making some good progress on the new column and steering - and will post that when its a bit more finalized - but as part of the new column, I went with one without the ignition key (the one that came out had the ignition in the column, and it was wonky and there were no 'detents' or stops at each position so it was easy to accidently leave it in ACC or on etc) and both needed/wanted to move the key to the dash in the OEM location.
So this is the keyed ignition wiring harness on the old AMC Jeep column...


Had to identify the wiring pattern and then move it to this - a standard ACC/OFF/ON/Start 4 position switch. You can pretty much trace all the wires to the end point and figure it out, but it was comforting to find it matched the AMC era jeep wiring diagram down to the exact color of every wire that was taken with the column when the steering swap was done...all the jeep wires had been connected to the OEM willys wires, so I cut-out the jeep wire connections and added in my own that matched the OEM willys wiring.


A friend reminded me of the ignition bypass wiring necessary with old externally resisted ignition coils and contact points. And although I am not using that type of ignition set-up, many old style ignition switches won't power the coil from the IGN terminal when in the Start position, only the ON (or RUN) position. So I checked the switch and the IGN terminal is closed for both ON and Start positions, so that keeps one less wiring complication - no need for a coil wire from the starter solenoid (which are not common on modern mini starters these days).
Final look:

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Today's small progress forward....set-up 3 new gauges in the cluster. Obviously the cluster mount is not OEM, but I kinda like where it was, and the 'striped' chrome frame kind of gives off a good old school vibe - and way thicker and more substantial than the cheapie frame that came with the new 3 gauge set. I wanted to replace the ammeter with a volt-meter, and the old temp gauge sometimes seemed slow to get going sometimes (although that could have been related to how it was mounted and it took the thermostat to open and get flow going before it read properly). This new one will get mounted directly into the intake. Did all the hard part of getting the wiring etc done on the back of the gauges so I just have two connections to make at the engine...still have some clean-up and organization to do under the dash.....

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made the driver side seat bracket out of an old bed frame I found along side the road a few years ago...this came out pretty well from my POV given some of my adventures with fabbing stuff. The front cross-bar is 1" higher than the rear, which makes the entire seat tilt back just about right...maybe could use a bit more, but that is as much as I could do without bigger modification and more creative design etc. I still need to make a template for the 4 seat mount screws so I can drill the 4 holes into the top plates, but this really should work and I think the seat is well centered behind the column (although its hard to find parallel and perpendicular reference lines/surfaces in the front of these old wagons).